Long story short -- married 20 years, H was abusive (verbally, emotionally, mentally, then became sexually abusive .. but *never hit me* yadda yadda). Finally had enough. He was removed from the home and was ordered into anger management (never did it). I have a restraining order and custody of the youngest -- older two wanted to stay with him (he was Disney dad -- cash and cars).

Fast forward to now. He is living with another woman (this is the second one in three years since our split). The kids hate this woman. She is angry and yells at them. I keep telling the kids to extend the olive branch. The oldest moved out of his house because of her abuse and the middle one is going into grade 12, so he'll not be there for long. He pretty much is invisible and is on his computer all the time, locking himself away from society, even including me.

The oldest was over for dinner last night (since she's moved out of his home, she's established a relationship with me again). The youngest is at Dad's for the month of July -- Situation, my ex had a fight with Angry Woman. He tells our girls to go out to the store to buy flowers for Angry Woman. They do so, but before they bring them home, the oldest (20) gets the youngest (14) to spit in the flowers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> When the oldest told me, I told her it wasn't appropriate to *spit*, regardless of how they feel about this woman. She was laughing and said the woman *deserved* it. I told her that she needs to back off and if her father wants the flowers bought, he is the one that should be doing that and not sending them on an errand.

Now...the problem is that this has upset me to no end. I phoned the ex and said I wanted to talk to him. My purpose? I have no idea! Maybe to tell him that the girls hate this woman? Maybe to get a dig in by telling him to take care of his own relationships and not drag the girls into it? I don't know what to do. I haven't spoken to him, but told him to call me when his girlfriend wasn't around.

I AM CRAZY! I still have feelings for this man. Even though through all the years he was abusive to me. Now.... he's working on HIM and things ARE changing. Why couldn't he do that when he was with me? I don't know what the problem is -- but I need your read on this. Maybe someone might be able to show me what MY problem is!!!!!! Thanks

elan,
Is this the same man who took you to court a cazillion times? I don't visit here like I used to, but I think I remember some of your background.

I'm currently reading a book by Lundy Bancroft "Why Does He Do That?" You MUST read this book! I've read your post twice. It's hard for me to tell why you'd be so upset about the kids going on the flower errand. Of course it's something your ex should do himself! But you know how he is, and how can you expect him to be something that he isn't? If the kids refused to get the flowers, they'd probably 'pay' for it. I'd probably spit on those flowers too! What would it say about your daughters if they complied fully and completely with their 'assignment?' They're coping as best they can. They're walking a fine line between expressing their true beliefs and 'complying so I won't get punished for refusing'. Your ex is getting them involved in an adult issue, which is inappropriate. What choices do your daughters really have in the situation? Perhaps it's a reminder of things he used to do to you? Or perhaps you're angry that he seems to finally be making the changes you asked for, and here is this obnoxious angry woman receiving what you wanted in the first place. Elan, I wouldn't believe for a minute that he's truly changing. He's successfully pushing your buttons, getting daughters involved in something he should be tending himself, and you'll get roped back into a dysfunctional dance of anger if you're not careful! Detach detach detach!! Lighten up on the daughters and direct the anger where it belongs.

I am not going to attempt to know or understand all the things that have gone on in your marriage that caused the many feelings of hurt that I know must be there...on both sides.

However, I will express three things that before you speak with your husband at anytime, and everytime you are around him, think of these three things before saying anything, before showing anything:

1) A soft word turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirrs up anger

2) Love suffers long and is kind - it does not envy - it does not parade itself - it is not puffed up - it does not behave rudely - it is not self-seeking - it is not provoked - it thinks no evil - it does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth - loves bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things - love never fails

3) Rejoice always, pray continually and in EVERYTHING (find a way) to give thanks

At one time I was the verbally abusive husband. At one time I was the one who she wanted to be away from. If you can live with those verses pro-active in your life, in time, maybe sooner than later, you will see change.

God bless you.

Long post warning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I don't even know where to start... first -- thank you for your responses. You BOTH gave me a lot to think about. After I posted, my ex called. I told him that I "handled the situation and didn't need to discuss it with him." He of course asked, nicely, and made me feel that maybe *this* time he wouldn't go ballastic. I didn't read your responses before this call, so I will tell you how it went:

Firstly, I was terrified -- yes this is the same man that took me to court far too many times. He was so *nice* and the first thing that came into my mind was, "here goes again, he's softening me up so I'll be vulnerable and then WHAMMO! he stabs me in the back." The other voice was telling me, "Hey, he's been working hard on changing, and maybe he has, and there's hope for us yet."

I told him about the flowers (not the spitting), but to place himself in a position where he was the recipient of "flowers" and how would *he* feel if his girlfriend sent someone else out to get the flowers. He responded and said he wouldn't appreciate them. I then said, "that's exactly what you did though with getting our girls to get the flowers for you." If you want this relationship to work with your girlfriend, you are the one that has to work on it, and not our children. I then told him that the reason I was telling him this was not to upset him, be vindictive or take a stab at him, but that he really needed to open up his heart and see what his actions were telling OUR children. I then told him that the children were not happy with this girlfriend and that I defended the girlfriend. He asked me what he should do since he's tried to talk to them and the kids say nothing. My response -- "talk to your kids, sit down and listen with your heart without getting all defensive and angry at what they have to say. The reason a person clams up is because they don't feel safe enough to open up and talk."

The conversation continued a bit with him saying that all he wanted was to sit down and have coffee with ME and talk to me. I told him I wasn't secure enough to do that. He asked me why and I told him there was a reason for the restraining order and that quite frankly my safety in the past was an issue with him. He said he had changed and I told him that I have not seen enough of the changes (although this phone call indicated to me that he WAS able to have a conversation without being hostile and verbally abusive -- so part of me wanted to believe that he changed). I told him I would be willing to sit down and talk with him in the lawyers office...a safe place, with the lawyers outside of the room to give us privacy. I told him that I didn't feel safe enough to talk with him in any other manner. He warned me that the phone might die and that he would call back if it did.

I reverted the subject back to the kids and I did tell him that it was HIS responsibility to work on this relationship with his girlfriend and not to involve the children. He then said, "I don't think I want to work on a relationship with her..." the phone then went dead. He called me back within a minute and the conversation was totally different...totally different tone, him: "Yeah, sorry, thanks for the call, I'll talk to you later."

So much of me wants to believe this man has changed ts10. I am aware of my tone of voice and work very hard at being kind and considerate when I talk to him, even when he is screaming on the other end at me. Today, it was totally different -- like he finally did understand. At one point in our conversation about the kids, I told him, "you already lost me, I don't want you to lose the kids too." He said he regretted losing me --that's when the wanting to talk to me came in.

Then..on the flip side, I remember the endless court sessions and wonder if his *softness* is a ploy to expose my vulnerable side and then sneak up and stab me once again. My emotional side wants him to regret the hardships and the abuse, and come begging for forgiveness and be the man that I thought I married -- and work towards a future.Then comes the other side that wants to run screaming the other direction. Next year, our son graduates...a year away and I already am having nervous tension about being in the same room with him...and at the same time, hoping and praying that he will beg me for forgiveness and ask that we work on "us" again. I pray and pray and pray that God gives me an answer..but somehow I can't hear what He has to say.

Lonesome Heart: I do understand what you are saying..that's the part that I wrestle with -- do I dare have hope that this man has changed? I do work towards not taking any of this out on the kids. I place it in a way that they think about the solutions to their problems with their dad. I work very hard at not placing blame or being on *their* side when it comes to conflicts. I've worked hard over the years to be empathetic, yet lead them to discover their own solutions. Thanks for the reminders though.

ts10: It intrigues me that you were the abusive partner. Being the one on the receiving end, I'd like to know just how you owned up to your actions and what you have done to make changes. What is your situation now? Has your partner accepted these changes?

Thanks for the feedback...and my apologies for having such a long post.

elan,
I know it's tempting to believe that he's changed. You said you still have feelings for him. It sounds like you're entertaining the idea of talking with him in person even though there's restraining order in place. He clearly continues to have the ability to get under your skin. Why else would you have been so upset over the flower incident? Do you truly believe he's changed when buying some flowers is more effort than he's willing to put forward in his current relationship? A relationship that appears to be on shaky ground? Perhaps this angry woman is too difficult for him to control and he's looking for the next replacement? Could he be looking to you to be his object to control yet again? Please think about these things when you entertain the idea that he might have changed.

I too have wrestled with the idea that my stbx might 'come around' someday and our marriage could have been saved. I was too stubborn to give up on the vows, on him, on my own promise to myself that I would love him 'no matter what.' Very little of me was left when we separated. I seem to recall that you've seen times when you couldn't take any more of his tactics. Rather than ask "has he changed", ask "what is right here before me that shows he hasn't changed." You can ALWAYS have hope that he'll change, but it doesn't happen just because he says so or manages a 10 minute conversation without biting your head off.

If it's any help, I personally found a lot more peace when I finally learned to accept my stbx just the way he is. I let go of what could have been. I stopped trying to twist myself into pretzel so I might receive his approval even once in a blue moon. I married a man who's impossible to please, and it's truly his problem and not my inadequacies that are the reason for it. I pray that he might find peace within his own soul in this lifetime and maintain boundaries that keep his hurtful behavior outside the fence. He doesn't get under my skin like he used to. I don't get frustrated as much because I know what to expect from him. Occasionally he'll be civil to me, and I accept the breath of fresh air while it's there. I don't expect it to last. I avoid disappointment. Works every time.

lonesome heart; how can you tell I've been thinking about this alot?? ha ha (2:30 a.m. here and I woke thinking about this garbage!) I read your post and agree with it 100%. So much of me is mourning a marriage that I never had. Twenty-years is a long time to just up and quit on, but most of those 20 years I was hiding and doing what he said so he wouldn't explode. I don't ever want to do that again! I can't live for "what could have been."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you truly believe he's changed when buying some flowers is more effort than he's willing to put forward in his current relationship? A relationship that appears to be on shaky ground? Perhaps this angry woman is too difficult for him to control and he's looking for the next replacement? Could he be looking to you to be his object to control yet again? Please think about these things when you entertain the idea that he might have changed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW -- now how simple is that? Sometimes I think people (me in particular) fog the issues ourselves just for an inkling of hope that our former partners might have changed. I did say to him that I have not seen enough of the changes, because quite honestly I haven't. I want to *believe* he has changed, but I've been burned enough to know that I need concrete proof that he's changed, not just him *saying* he's changed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm irritated that this woman is digging in her heels and putting down boundaries -- it's what I should have done when we were first married. I'm learning to forgive myself though and realize that it's not this *woman* who's the issue here, but it's his need for control as the reason his present relationship is not working out to his own liking. My ex doesn't get under my skin like he used to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I too have wrestled with the idea that my stbx might 'come around' someday and our marriage could have been saved. I was too stubborn to give up on the vows, on him, on my own promise to myself that I would love him 'no matter what.' Very little of me was left when we separated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto! I need to let go of the expectation that this man will change and accept that he will never change. I will never let myself be lost in any relationship. Thanks for the reality check. I needed it! I'm printing your posts out so the next time I have amnesia I can remind myself not to go there again!