In November 02 my H came to me and told me he didn't love me anymore and that we had problems that could not be worked through. (trust me, the issues that we had were not that big at all). Anyway, I told me that I was willing to talk about everything and try to get things worked out and we even visited a counselor once. He told the counselor that he felt that we had grown apart and there was nothing that could be done. I moved out (by his request) in Jan. and our divorce was final in May (no kids). At this time I was still unsure why we had divorced in the first place. In June, I found out that he had gone out of town with OW in Oct. (before he told me he didn't love me). He claims that she was not the cause of our problems. (I don't believe that). Anyway, the point of the story is that he has recently come to me and admitted that the whole situation was his fault and he majorly screwed things up. He claims that the problems he had with me were not actually problems but only things that he blew out of proportion due to his guilt. He claims that he misses me and still loves me. I asked him what he wanted to do and he said he didn't know. I'm not sure if I'm willing to get back together or not. The thing that upsets me is that he will not come out and tell me that he wants me back. He told me the other day that he just wants to see how it goes and what is meant to be will be. My theory on the whole thing is that if he even wants our relationship to have a chance then he should be willing to do anything to fix it and make the committment. He will willingly answer a couple questions from me at a time then gets frustrated saying that's in the past and there's obviously nothing he can do to fix it so it's pointless to talk about it. I say you can't fix it until I get past what he did to me. The other concern in the OW. It is impossible to him to have NC with her b/c they are in the same school program. He says he is no longer involved with her, but of course, I'm not sure if that true or not. What should I do? Should I tell him that if wants a shot, then he should be willing to go to counseling and work like a dog to rectify the situation, or should I just take it on a "come what may" basis?

Oh Confused!! Do we have the same husband? Of course not, but are they related by chance, like a clone! lol

First of all, if he still has contact with the OW, I wouldn't believe for one minute she is completely out of his life unless you see it with your own eyes or you really really believe he is sincere and he works VERY hard to prove this to you. Second, sounds like he realizes the grass really isn't greener on the other side and now he wants you back because he realizes he lost a good thing. Be careful! He cheated once and lied about it. Don't think it won't happen again unless he is willing to get some kind of counseling and work very hard. You obviously still love this man. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the same story about putting things in the past!!

I would never take him back on a "come what may" situation.

Because your situation is so very much like mine, I would love to talk with you more about this. You see, this didn't just happen once to me, it happened 3 times and I heard the same story all three times.

Confused - the pain is so unbearable. You love your husband, like many of us do. To hear these words, would of been great if we heard them before. I would look at your husabnd and decide if this is real. If he is seeing the other woman, forget it. One way is to hire a detective. Costs money, but in the end the truth will come out. Once they have lied, it takes a long time to get the trust back. I am not there, and don't know when it will be there. Was on another thread about trusting your spouse. I know I still love this man, but not who he is now.

Keep working on yourself, and doing things for yourself. Give this time, and if he is willing to make a 100% committment, counseling, and being respectful and caring, then maybe you can look at a try to regain the marriage. But if this is all talk just to get his cake, icing, and candles. The fire will blow you away.

The headaches are from so much stress, wondering if he does this or that. Watching every step he takes. When we first married our spouses, we lived happily, without wondering if he was screwing someone else. Now there is that history that has instilled the protection of us. Not them, but us. We have been severely hurt and it is going to take a lot to get the trust back.

As far as talking, you need to air your grievances with him. And not let him control you by saying it was in the past. That is a control issue and you are enabling him to control you. If he wants to work on the relationship, then he will explain everything to you, in a kind thoughtful manner with sensitive words and body language. It will be hard, and it will take a lot of doing on your part to be patient and not interfere when he talks. Cause you will want to know some of the sexual things, and the language, and maybe not. But it would be nice to have the truth told, and to hear from your husband that he still loves you, and cares about you, and that he doesn't want to hurt you anymore.

That is want all of us betrayed spouses want, to know that we are cared about, and to know that there will be no more pain. I hate the pain that I have experienced for the last 3 years. I hate the pain that has destroyed my family, and my children, (my kids are older). But it still has caused great emotional stress.

Get the counseling for the two of you. That always helps to find counseling so that if you two start talking disrespectfully to each other, someone there is able to say, lets be nice. Just like we tell our kids to be nice to each other.

Good luck.

seriously, tell the guy, sorry, but marriage is to be taken seriously, and not for ninnies that run off at the first better appearing choice that he comes across.

unfortunately, he must now live with those choices, especially if he dies not want to work through the issues and the establish your trust on whatever basis you require. . .

I am sure you can find better, and actually since you are here, actually read up and find out about how most BS end up better, and most WS end up worse off, and that the problem they have is usually one of three, 1) Family of Origin dysfunctionaly, 2) personality disorders, and 3) interrrupted or abnormal social development from HS through college. ...

so I say, and am following my own advice, doesn't matter what they want now, if they actually had to go through a process of legally divorcing, then best they learn that you deserve someone better. . .

wiftty

Thank you all for your wonderful comments. It's slighly comforting to know that I'm not the only one who's ever gone through this! Chmajuli- our husbands were definately cut from the same mold. I'm very sorry to hear that this has happened to you 3 times! I don't know how you can handle that. Just this once is killing me. What made you decide to go back each time? Was he willing to make the committment each time or was he just stringing you along?

More happened last night. I was feeling very frustrated and called him and asked him if we could go out to dinner to talk. Well, he came up with every excuse in the book. (Had to get home to let the dogs out, had to get a haircut, blah blah). I kind of blew up and said that if we wasn't even willing to put me in front of getting his hair cut, then to just forget everything. Then I told him that taking this on a "come what may" basis is basically crap and that he needs to make a decision to either commit to making it better to cut cut the strings and let me move on. He said that he wasn't ready to make that decision and I told him that was fine and to take his time but in the meantime, I'm not going to be his little "play thing" and I'm not going to sit around and wait. I wish that whole conversation could have taken place in a little more friendly way, but I was frustrated and he was just plain being a [censored]. I so very much do not know what to do. Should I just tell him to go away because I'm just setting myself up for a horrible fall?

Thank you all for your wonderful comments. It's slighly comforting to know that I'm not the only one who's ever gone through this! Chmajuli- our husbands were definately cut from the same mold. I'm very sorry to hear that this has happened to you 3 times! I don't know how you can handle that. Just this once is killing me. What made you decide to go back each time? Was he willing to make the committment each time or was he just stringing you along?

More happened last night. I was feeling very frustrated and called him and asked him if we could go out to dinner to talk. Well, he came up with every excuse in the book. (Had to get home to let the dogs out, had to get a haircut, blah blah). I kind of blew up and said that if we wasn't even willing to put me in front of getting his hair cut, then to just forget everything. Then I told him that taking this on a "come what may" basis is basically crap and that he needs to make a decision to either commit to making it better to cut cut the strings and let me move on. He said that he wasn't ready to make that decision and I told him that was fine and to take his time but in the meantime, I'm not going to be his little "play thing" and I'm not going to sit around and wait. I wish that whole conversation could have taken place in a little more friendly way, but I was frustrated and he was just plain being a [censored]. I so very much do not know what to do. Should I just tell him to go away because I'm just setting myself up for a horrible fall?

now, you need to decide what behaviors you will tolerate from others, and when people behaviors that you don't like, you do not entertain their presence.

i would be careful of SD, selfish demands, though, your conversation was full of them, so LBing may be something you are unconsciously doing.

wiftty

Confused,

Your responses to your ex sound so much like mine. Let me tell you what I have learned from my counseling and my own research. This doesn't mean your husband is the same type of guy mine is or that our relationships are the same, but it might be worth exploring the type of people our h are and why they treat us the way they do.

First of all, I have learned that my h has the ability to shut out all feelings when he feels he can't handle them. He just shuts them off...like shutting a door. To someone like me, this is painful because they are unaffected (or appear to be) by crying, pleading, or any other types of emotions that you display to them. there is no compassion there..no comforting.

When my h and i would have an argument, he would shut me out, physically (as in out of our bedroom, out of the house, etc) and emotionally (cold shoulder, silent treatment, etc). I thought he was bottling things up but he was turning to other woman at his work and for years I had NO idea this was happening until I would "discover" the affair. The first two he quit his job or she quit and then I thought things would be ok between us. The second one I was pregnant with our son who is 3 now, and I can't tell you how painful that was and how I went into premature labor upon discovering that relationship after confronting him and being lied to about it.

Anyway, by the time the 3rd one came along, he had actually fell "in love" with this much older woman and decided he no longer loved me. He moved out. This woman didn't help matters...she thought she had a new man and didnt' care what I was going through or how this was affecting our family and children. While it was his fault for what he did, she is as much to blame for the marriage break up as he is.

Anyway, these guys can cope because they can shut you out when they want to. They are not happy people by any means, trust me. But they can move on because they do have this ability to not feel.

There is a lot of bitterness that I have carried around mostly because I have never gotten the apology I felt I deserved. No remorse...at least that I have ever seen although he loves to tell me how he cries at night, I've never seen him cry. Oh yeah, he said he felt bad and sorry for hurting me, but he never really asked my forgiveness and plays the relationship they had down as to "inappropriate" behavior, but swears he never loved her. He just needed "attention."

Anyway, the point is, guys like this...if they were really committed men, they wouldn't be turning to other woman like this...they wouldn't keep "stringing" us along the way they do.

I think they just cannot commit or else they just love knowing they have us hanging onto them while they toy with the idea of keeping us, preying on our love and emotions, while they are happily playing with other woman too. It is their inability to make a committment to us.

The hardest thing I have to do, what I am doing right now, is loving my h from a distance. That's all I can do because I can't get caught in the web again...while it is the most exhiliarating feeling when I am with him...I also have had my lowest and most painful moments with this man. I want to call him, I want to touch him, I want to kiss him, I want to be with him...but it's all at a cost to me because he knows how I feel and yet he truly never gives me ALL of him.

Once you take control of your relationship with this man, you feel better...but you sound like you're still waiting on him...letting him make the decisions. I understand this feeling...I have been doing it for many years, but now I am in control and I have made the decision..to love him, but to stay away for my own peace of mind.

Good luck girl.

Chmajuli-it's amazing what you said about him shutting me out. That's exactly what is happening. When this all started, I would cry and beg and plead that if he felt anything for me at all, he would give a solid attempt to fix it. He was even able to look me in the eye with no remorse and say, "I don't love you, I don't even like you, and I'm ashamed of you" He has since said that he was wrong about all that and that he truly loves me. But what kind of person is capable of hurting someone like that that they know loves them with all their heart? Maybe it was because he shut off all feelings that he was able to have this affair and lie to me (convincingly) about it for months. I totally understand what you are saying about loving your husband from a distance so you don't get mixed up in that web again. That seems like a good idea for me as well, but I don't know if I'm strong enough to do that. Whenever the idea of getting back together comes up with the thought of him loving me again involved, I get very hopeful. I know it is a great idea to back off and let me totally come to me but it's so hard.

I have recently told him that he needs to make a decision about whether or not he wants to make a committed effort to solve our problems or to just cut ties and go our separate ways. I told him that I could not have an "in between" relationship when he felt like it or was lonely. He said that he understands that and that he will think about it and make a decision. I'm not sure if I did the right thing. On one hand, I feel like I did good because he now knows that I will not be strung along and if he chooses to work on it then I need a committed, strong effort. But on the other hand, I may have scared him with something that sounded a lot like and ultimatum. Oh well, I guess if he doesn't understand or gets mad becaused I made him make a decision, then it's problably better that we're not involved anyway.

Anyone have any suggestions of what I should do or any comments on the actions I have already taken?

confused

yet you ARE being strung along...

now he has approached you and told you he screwed up, wants you back, still loves you but won't tell you what he wants to do about it.

where does that leave you? my husband was doing the same thing...i asked him to tell the OW that he wanted to get back with his family but he couldn't do that...you're asking for a committment and you ex cannot give you that...they want to "see how things go..." and "let's play it by ear." You see, it took ME awhile to realize that my demands are NOT selfish, that this is the least he should be WILLING to do after hurting me so deeply. Betrayers have to prove themselves for a long time..it's the nature of the business. They have lied and lied and it takes a while for trust to come back... SO, I asked for no more than honesty and committment from my husband and since he cannot give it, I had to make the choice, painful as it is, to let him go. I took a chance that he'd come around and give me what I want, no...what I NEED, and he is still blaming me and saying this is my decision.

Anyway, you are stronger than you think. You have already been through the hardest part...the affair and the divorce...be strong and do what you feel is right.

I am not telling you not to give him a chance, I am saying respect yourself enough to not settle for less than what you deserve.

CH

CH-Thank you so much for your responses. I truly believe you and I are in the same boat and you're right, I'm more or less getting screwed. I'm wanting something from him that he is not willing to give me. When I try to have an open honest heart to heart talk with him, he gets an attitude and acts as if I'm bothering him. By the time I'm done speaking with him, I feel as if I've done something wrong. When I speak with him, I have come out and told him that I'm not pressuring him, but if he chooses to try to fix our relationship then there are certain things that I need out of it. He acts as if I'm pushing him to do something.

Last night he told me that the OW is no longer around. i asked is she was either dead or moved out of the country and he said "no", so I said, "well, then she's not really gone" (they're still in the same program). Apparently, he just decided to end things with her. I very carefully tried to ask what caused him to make this decision and he said, "It's not what you think, I didn't do it for you, it was just time". I'm not sure why he even told me about it then. I'm really getting to the point that I need to get out of this situation, but every time I tell myself that I won't fall for him when he calls me and tells me he misses me, I fail miserably. Any comments or suggestions about how to stand my ground a little better?

Okay, now I need some serious advice. I have to go see him tonight about some other things. What should I do? Should I not even bring anything up or should I tell him that we will never be able to try to fix things until he is ready to make a solid, committed effort? Should I try to ask him questions? CH- Help!

discuss only what you are going over there to discuss with him, and then leave. . .

no relationship talks, business and departure. . .

now i have a question:

why are falling for the same pattern every tme? if he wants to initiate RT, relationship talks, then let him do it. but as far as you are concerned, unless he asks you what he needs to do, then there isn't anything you need to discuss. . . you are open, but not to initiation. . .

one part that i see alot on these boards is the failure to see the change in the person, from what you initially saw the spouse as and then how you see the spouse now. ..

its the fog, and until the fog wears off to wear you see the person as he was before, then you just have a business relationship. . .

wiftty

Confused and Chmajuli,
Both of your situations sound very similar to my own. I have been lurking here since October last year. My story is this. We had been together for 17 years, lived together for 6 years before we got married and were married for 9 years as of July 2nd. H and I were in the same kindergarden class and I moved to the other side of town. We meet again at a mutual friends high school graduation and have been together since. In the 9 years of marriage we have lived in 5 different states all moves to support his career and rise up the corporate ladder. His affair was an exit affair. It was the only way for him to communicate with me that he wanted out.
D-day - September 27th my stbxh was on the phone all night drinking and talking to friends. I had gone to bed and woke up to his snoring at about 1 am. I found him passed out in the bathroom and was so disgusted by this I could not go back to sleep. I went into the office to work on some homework. There on the computer was an instant message conversation between him and OW (at this point I did not know about the affair). I was just going to end the conversation by closing the screen and signing him off. But those three little words "I love you" caught my attention. You all know the feelings you experience at the point where what you have been supecting for awhile finally becomes a fact. To make a long story short, he agreed to one (yes just one) couples counselling session. So I jumped though all the hoops in arranging the insurance and scheduling the appointment around his impossibly restrictive schedule demands for the appointment (it can't be this night or this night, I'll be out or town this night, not during the the day etc.) A month later during our counselling session the counselor asked us where we wanted to go in our relationship. Both of us agreed at this point we didn't know and we wanted to salvage what we could and see if we could at the very least remain friends. The counselor looked at me and asked under what conditions would I be willing to work under to try and maintain a relationship with my husband. I had three.
1. Give her up 100% no contact.
2. He needed to commit to couples counselling.
3. He needed to commit to individual counselling.
The counselor turned to stbxh and asked him if he was willing to meet the first condition.
He said "no".
I then told him that we could not continue in our current relationship if she was in our lives. I felt that in order to trust him again that he needed to give her the boot. It still hurts alot but I know I would be a much crazier women if I had stayed with him.
The moral of the story is you need to set boundaries in a loving and caring way. Not for the other person but for yourself. Boundaries are not selfish. I know that that it feels selfish but only you know what conditions you can and can not live under.
Take care of yourselves,
ss

confused

have to make this quick and will write more later but...

for now since you are meeting with him this evening...

I totally agree with both wiftty and ss! No relationship talks unless HE initiates it first and stick to business if he doesn't.

SS, that is pretty much exactly how I found out about my h's affair..and I had the exact same conditions..

I don't know if he is still in counseling...says he knows he needs it, but I am continuing in my counseling...got an appt tonight

CH

Ok, new development with XH. Last week I spoke to him and told him that I could not have a "come what may" relationship and that I really wanted him to take some time to figure out what would make him happy in life. I asked him to take his time and if I'm what would really make him happy then I needed a solid, committed effort on his part and if he decided it was not me that would make him happy then we should just part ways on go on with our lives. He has recently come to me and said that he really wants to work on our relationship. He has been acting like the person that I used to love so much... Is this just an act? We sat down and I told him what my emotional needs were for this situation to even have a shot at working. I told him that I had to be respected all the time, that he would have to go out of his way to show me that he really cares, that he would have NC with OW, and that he would have to either be willing to go to a Retrouvaille weekend or to marriage counseling. He agreed to these things and said that they were fair and that I deserved all of them. I told him that I would not bring up MC or Retrouvaille again and that he had to make all the arrangements. (If he does this, this would show me that he may actually be committed about trying to fix our relationship). The only problem he had was with the OW. He says it's impossible at this point to have NC. They are in the same school program for the next 6 weeks. After that, they will not be in the same classes. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I don't want him to quit school, he is so close to getting his degree, but I'm not comfortable at all with him having to see her every week. What should I do? Do you guys think that he is just blowing smoke?

Confused - Only you can tell if you are able to handle him seeing her for the next six weeks. If you are then it might be helpful if he writes a letter/e-mail that you will send to her, stating that he is committed to his relationship w/you and that any future contact over the next six weeks will only be work related. Any conservations/contact will be discussed with you, his wife and after the term is over he wants no further contact with her. If both of you are committed to wanting this to work I believe he needs to show you with his actions that he can be trusted.

I am thankful that my stbxh was honest enough with me to state that he would not give the OW up to work on us. The gratitude for his honesty has only come resently but it's there now.

The best advice I can offer is be true to yourself. Ask yourself what actions would help you to trust him again. Then talk to him. Only you have the answers. It's hard to believe in yourself but start now! You are smart and wise and you deserve to be treated as such. Good luck and please update your status.

ss

confused,
You are getting good advice. I hope I can give you more wisdom. Let me start with this: he will never respect YOU until YOU respect YOU. He has been in control all your married life. He doesn't value you and it is clearly evident in the way he has treated you. If he truly felt he had made a mistake, he would be after you like flies on honey. He's safeguarding something and it ain't you. You are a tempoary place of security, not a committment for life. There's an old saying that says: if the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, you can bet the water bill is higher too. He refuses to see that and is still ready to jump the fence.
My w was having an affair and divorced me right away too. After two years she said she was not happy and wanted to talk. She was still with the other guy. I said I'd talk, but it better be productive.[In that time I got to know myself and discovered I wasn't as bad as she had told me for years. Maybe she was starting to realize it too. And I got strong emotionally, not mean, just strong.] After being with the other guy she was confused and couldn't make up her mind. That's what adultery does to you. I said I'll make it for you, goodbye! That was hard, but it was the best thing I ever did. I told her we were divorced and it was time to start acting it. I told her that if I ever wanted to talk to her, I'd call her. That was 8 years ago. She's still confused and I'm happy. My life has totally changed for the better. And what I thought I once couldn't live without, guess what. No, I don't believe in divorce and I don't promote it, but you are officially divorced. Go enjoy life. You'll be amazed at what you will discover. About the world and yourself. And if he TRULY does change, maybe. But I'd urge you to really think about that.
I wish you well