The following is a message I posted on another site. After visiting Marriage Builders I think I know what the response here would be. So sorry to be redundant. But I guess I would be interested to hear from others who have been in a similar situation and how brutal honesty worked for them - how they survived the initial waves of pain etc and how they went on to restore a marriage even though their spouse's heart might be elsewhere. <P>I was also interested in some of the other posts here - one person was frustrated at the lack of response from his wife even though he was bending over backwards to please her after an affair and another poster suggesting to someone else to provide steak and not hamburger in order to keep our spouses interested. I guess I also feel that I'm at my optimum level of pleasing right now with not much more room for improvement. I guess I want advice on how to secure loyalty once the filet mignon starts to toughen with age and someone else is out there offering rarer steak with caviar? One thing I have learned is that however much we would have it otherwise, the physical aspect of connection is crucial in our relationship and I worry that when that withers will there be enough still over to sustain the embers?<P>Here's my original post from elsewhere:<P><BR>I'm really confused about whether total openess and honesty in a marriage can ever be a bad thing?<P>About 3 months ago my husband and I experienced a crisis in our marriage where my husband was ready to leave me. I had no idea how unloved I had caused him to feel. Anyway, I read books, he read a book about women and we both watched a relationship video together. We went away to Mexico by ourselves for a week and have really worked hard to address all the problems which led to the crisis in the first place. As a result we are learning to fall in love with each other, almost for the first time.<P>One of the difficulties we had to deal with was the fact that my husband had committed adultery in his heart. He works out of state every week; our marriage was weak; he has recently become very successful in his career and with that, very attractive to all the sophisticated professional women with whom he works in Manhatten (I'm a homeschool mom in the mid-west). Nothing ever came of it (the most beautiful woman at his work went to another job elsewhere) but at one point he was wishing there was someway he could have both of us and 3 months ago he was about to actively seek it out. I forgave him because I knew that I had been neglectful of him as a wife and understood why he might be tempted. <P>But one weekend I was talking with him and expressed how I felt we should be brutally honest with each other at all times, no matter how painful. You have to understand that my husband is not easily able to communicate feelings or even just communicate, period! Urged by me to reveal his inner concerns, he confessed that he was often distracted by other women, even friends of mine, and that could be a possible stumbling block to our marriage recovery. We've also had intense discussions about his feelings about women, what he finds attractive etc. He knows that this can be really difficult for me. At one point he actually said he would just love to lay everything on the table with me and share his most intimate feelings in an attempt to share at every level but he knows that might be more than I could bare.<P>So to return to my question, is there a part of a man which needs to be perpetually sealed off from his partner - too intimate and personal for even the closest human being to broach? Would it be wrong of me to try and probe this area of mystery? Although it was extremely painful to learn about his thoughts of other women at least I now know what I am contending with. It is a real picture and not some imaginary fantasy of how I thought him to be. So part of me wants to know everything - have everything laid on the table. But another part just wants to take all the positives we have now and run away from that Pandora's box in the corner which, once opened, might destroy not just my life, his life but that of my children. I do know that he is sincere in his desire to honor his commitment to me and our family. He too is working as best he can to make this work.<P>One last question. If I were to find out that his heart is definitely elsewhere but his sense of duty, commitment and respect not to mention our friendship kept him with me and the children how do I deal with that as a woman and continue to respond to him romantically and with a full heart? How would I avoid feeling like a burden or a cage keeping in restless bird? I love him so much that I want him to be free and happy. But that is hard to reconcile with my desire for my children's welfare.<P>Thankyou<P>

Thank God you and your husband are trying to be open and honest to each other<P>But be careful that you do not do damage at the same time<P>Be much more careful<P>Instead of being so brutally honest with each other try to spend some more time doing things that are of a gentle nature like reading a book each and you the newspaper and then him and being quiet in each other's presence<P>Stamp collecting<P>Doing the garden together<P>Not too many words<P>Candlelit dinner<P>Be careful with the brutal honesty because you could be brutal before the honesty hits<P>Have you ever studied the conversational techniques written up by Steve Harley<P>We must also take 60 seconds or 60 minutes to think before being brutally honest<P>If he commited adultery in his heart try not to keep on putting pressure on that<P>Many people make mistakes and many cannot say I have never sinned<P>Tell him it is ok and many people all over the world have done it even presidents and famous evangelists like Jimmmy Swaggart<P>It was human for him to make a mistake<P>Try to create a new future for you and him<P>Be soft and forgiving with him not always ready to be harshly open but trying rather to give each other soft<BR>answers and not to dwell too much on what each other has done<P>Involve a pastor or minister in your lives and get some professional counselling before one of you does or says the wrong thing<P>Do not neglect to do that today<P>Before it is too late and the problems hit the fan and your relationship goes out the window<P>Carol<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com</A> must be studied very well each day by you and him<P>Get a counsellor immediately<BR> <A HREF="http://www.allexperts.com" TARGET=_blank>www.allexperts.com</A> will answer urgent questions<BR>

It might help you to read the posts in other forums about "can't deal with wife's past" type of stuff. I was also stuck as to whether or not I should ask about my husband's past, or leave it be. You know what? I think honesty is the best way. The little bit I've learned, when we've talked about it openly, has helped me a lot. I love truth, really, really love it, and I need to have it in my marriage. Where do you draw the line at hiding things? For me, there is no line. BUT, I don't want to make my husband uncomfortable, so I'm giving him room and a lot of assurance to talk to me about it.

Thankyou for your responses.<P>Just wrote a long reply to you but forgot to enter my username etc. When I hit the back button the reply was gone!<P>Anyway, this week H and I talked - a progress check we promised ourselves 3 months ago when things first blew up with us.<P>I think he found it liberating to be able to talk freely and intimately with me but oh what a burden I now have to deal with. Nor do I know how to react exactly yet because I don't want him to perceive this openess as dangerous and go back to not letting me know where he stands.<P>Nor do I regret knowing the truth - better to have the light on than fight shadows in the twilight. But just like eating from the tree of knowledge, something innocent has died in our relationship and I don't know yet with what it will be replaced.<P>It isn't past indiscretions that are as hard to face as current situations. He revealed to me that he really loves me and realises what a great thing we have going but when he is away at work during the week (he works out of state)he is so lonely for companionship that at some point he fears he will cross the line and seek it out elsewhere. He wants to find a solution where I can be by his side but that won't happen for a while yet. Should it be so hard for him to maintain a sense of connectedness and focus with me? Am I so easily replacable? Is this really a genuine love for me or am I just filling in a need for him?<P>We have worked really hard on our relationship recently and things really did turn around. But there are limits to what I am able to do to keep the relationship humming and I feel close to that limit right now.<P>He also revealed that he does fantasize about making love to women he sees in movies etc and that he had considered subscribing to playboy but the clothing catalogues we receive are "more than adequate" so why pay? So now, whenever we see another woman who is beautiful I think he must be thinking about all the pleasure he is missing by being stuck with such an "inadequate" female as myself. It is hard to feel romantic and desirable when there are all these other images to contend with on a daily basis.<P>If it weren't for the children I think that not only would I leave him (despite loving and admiring him dearly) but I would also avoid all close contact with any male. No matter how wonderful the total person is, men especially seem so driven by their most primitive impulses that it seems almost a miracle if they avoid hurting all those closest to them. You have to understand that my H is a thoroughly "nice guy". He can be very gentle and sensitive and quiet - very into his family and being supportive and taking care of them.. I would never have dreamed that he had any of this going on inside of him. In fact he was utterly devastated by his ex-wife when she left him for someone else and he has observed how traumatised his first children were as a result. He even told me that he feels like an "inadequate man" to be so distracted in this way and he knows he would be the biggest idiot if he were to lose us. But not only do I feel like a complete human being and don't appreciate being viewed as an inadequate female but I also find the uncertainty of my life right now so hard to deal with. Will this be the week...etc. And more than all this, I feel so much pain at what my children might have to face at a moment's notice. I know life is uncertain but given my choices again I'm not sure whether marriage is worth it.<P>------------------<BR>

You're in a tough situation. There's a big difference between him getting a momentary picture in his head, and seeking out pictures to fantasize with. I used to worry that my husband would cheat on me, but we talked, and he told me he trusts himself not to. If he told me that he was not sure he could hold out if I was gone for a day, I would be very, very upset. Men CAN hold out, for years and years, their penis is not something that takes complete control of their body. It does not sound to me like your husband loves you enough to put your feelings first. It sounds like you come after his orgasm. I would be careful to not in any way let him think that his thoughts are acceptable to you. Let him know that you still love him, but that he needs to discipline his mind so that he is sure he is completely yours. He married YOU, that means he pledged his faithfulness, right? Did that mean nothing to him? He is not treating you right. I am not sure how to fix anything like this, maybe somebody else will have more advice. All I can say is that when you act like you love someone, pretty soon you actually do love them. But it has to be on both sides for a marriage to be fulfilling. Good luck.

I think there are two things here. There are basic sexual urges, which in a way are a little easier for me to deal with because they seem more impersonal. But when he was talking about seeking out companionship this was more of an emotional need he has. Now, earlier in our marriage I could completely understand this because, to be perfectly honest, neither of us was fulfilling each other emotionally. But recently that has turned around. We started doing all the things we were meant to be doing and both of us felt the results in every aspect of our relationship. But according to him, he is struggling with our "long-distance relationship". When he's with me he feels fullfilled and perfectly content. But when he's away from home (which he is every week) he feels disoriented and lonely. Last week he attended a week long company convention where they scheduled parties every evening. Living hell for me but apparently he didn't go to the first two events and I think part of this was to avoid putting himself in a dangerous encounter. But he is incredibly susceptible. He even told me that on one of the bus rides he sat next to a woman who was exuding pheronomes and it was driving him crazy.<P>You know, going back to the honesty thing, I'm beginning to think that being 'honest' with your mate is limited by the extent you can be honest with yourself. Maybe part of the problem is that his rational mind wants a certain scenario (to secure the marriage and family) but that there is so much stuff going on deep within him that he daren't even admit half of it to himself, so it isn't dealt with and instead expresses itself in these covert, confusing emotional rip tides.<P>I know this is a very dangerous situation for me to be in but I don't know how to best resolve this with minimum damage to my children. H even admitted to me that it is some kind of security to him to know that I'm totally vulnerable and unable to run away to friends and family. I'm not an American and have never worked in this country (my qualifications here aren't recognised). All my family are far away and I have few friends to help. He knows that all the chips are in his hand and that I would be unlikely to deprive him of seeing his children by taking them back to my country (if that were even legally possible for me to do without his consent). And he knows I love him and like him. On top of that my kids are so blissfully happy right now. They adore us both and are running around as innocent as though they were still in Eden. I can't even imagine the devastation this would bring to all their young lives.<P>Prettygarnet, I'm so grateful for you taking the time to respond. It is so hard to keep all this to myself and I *really* appreciate your comments. Thankyou from the bottom of my heart.<P><P>------------------<BR>