It's really strange just when I knew that I was finally reaching the place where I knew I was reaching some peace with being accectable with seperation, and with that finally stop trying to get my wife back and let her go, she seems to be interested in me. I don't get it. I thought all she wanted was space but now she wants to communicate, and share with me, she wants me even to do some things that might seem intimate between couples. I don't get it.

The thing is, that I have gone so long with seeing I don't have anything and coming to grips that this was real, it's hard for me to gage this. Someone said this is becasue all my attempts to win her back in my emotional state of loss did nothing but turn her off, and my decision to move on is something different.

Somebody please give me some insight!!!!!

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: psylocke ]</small>

It's a little hard to help without some more info. What caused the sep, infidelity, etc. How long has it been? Are you familiar with Plan A/B, were you in Plan B. Was there another man involved and full disclosure, or is she asking you to sweep things under the rug? Kids? Your Ages? Fill me in and I will try to help. I know these are confusing times...

Sorry Psylocke,
I went back and read some of your threads. It has only been about a month since she seems to be having this change of heart. I've been through this many times, sometimes month after month. Sometimes a cheater, sorry about the course words, misses the excitement of being involved and having the attention of two people in their lives. Even though in reality you may be the Love of her Life and she does really love you, when there are no boundaries set, when you love unconditionally, which a lot of us BS's do, they may return to the nest, but will eventually turn back to their pattern again. I would expect full disclosure from her of her true feelings, and actions speak louder than words. Don't allow your heart strings to be played like a fiddle. You may need to stick to your guns for awhile. Just continue to pray, not necessarily to save the marriage, but pray for God to guide you through whatever he feels is right for you. I hope I don't sound too calous. I hope this is helpful. I know I need some encouragement sometimes too. I've only been seperated a little more than a month, there's been alot of her emotional hints, "let's do lunch" etc. But through it she will not be honest, I am convinced I must continue in the direction of divorce for my sanity. I asked for her not to contact me, not easy to do, but I had to slow down the emotional rollercoaster. Good-Luck, we're here for you.

I agree, she might be playing with you, or there might be honesty in her heart. Full disclosure, and full committment is a must. Also, counseling would be good for the two of you, or individual.

A betrayer, will want their cake, icing and candles. Look for deceit. Hate to say this, but they are not to be trusted for a long time. There will be uneasy feelings for a long time. As far as the intimate things. I would put a barrier between the two of you. You could kiss, and hold hands, or things of that order. Just like you were dating sort of thing. But to become intimate, no way, hold the distance there. She may be wanting sex with you cause it is safe. But you don't know where she has been, and also, the sex is between two in union. Your union has been broken, and all it is doing is giving her the candles to light. And then she can blow them out.

Try the dating scenario. But put your boundaries there too. Full committment. Full disclosure. Full honesty. Protect yourself, cause the betrayer is not going to protect you, until there is a honesty between the two of you.

Thanks everyone for writing back. For the most part I would have to agree that I still need to maintain my new course. For those who have not observed me on the discussion forum for months, and want some history I have been dealing with my W and the exposure of an affair since October of 2002. I saw proof of left messages on her cell phone, outings at strange bars. Coming home at strange hours like 5am and on. Coming home with a new set of clothes and on. but she still refused to confess and share that anyhting was happening. We both have been married for 21yrs. I am not only a christain and she too, but a Pastor. She seperated not only in this area but in every area. We have 2 children girls who are still at home their ages are 11 and 15.

I finally knew in time I needed more proof and I happen to tape her phone conversation with her new partner. That's when I pretty much fell apart. She felt she went further away becasue of my peeking and looking into her world, it broke all trust according to her.

I did decide to invite a strong mutual couple into the mix to hear and help with our delimma. She went defensive and said that the affiar is small compared to everyhting that lead to the affair, that she felt our marriage was over a long time ago she just did'nt know it until some new things convinced her of it.

All through this I thought she would come around. But she even more seperated me from her the world of a married couple.
She did state she would not be going back to the person I knew about but I can't stop her future and I can't make her want this. She stated I wanted control, that I'm demanding. That I am fixed. She wanted indepedence, change and newness.

We went to the Marriage Builders seminar as a last ditch efford, and she stated at the closing that she could not sign or agree to working on our marriage becasue she does not want to be married.

Up until recently I have been trying to get her back, and she kept pushing and being more agressive. It finally hit me that I am being competley rejected and my life is vaulable even if she does not think so. I began to refelct on our marriage over the last 3yrs and I realize she lost the flame for me. The desire was gone. Now I must work on me for me. I belive that it is enivitable that I will be in a healthy realationship becasue my focus has always been on family and marriage.
I look forward to the present and the future. I don't know if she'll ever lighten up on her prespective on me, but the realality is she is a new person and has new convictions. I don't have the same desire to want to be with her. I'm attracted to something else. She on the other hand wants to know more now about my life, the congregation certain decisions and on. God is great, becasue I tried to work this out with the adultery but that never was discussed or even seen as important to the realationship. So there you have it in summary, sorry so long.

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: psylocke ]</small>

There is the relationship theory that we seek out partners that are the opposite of us in terms of "closeness" and "distancing". This typically develops out of issues around "autonomy" and "intimacy". If those issues have not been developed in balance within the individual, we often seek out a partner who will "balance" us. Thus, one partner most often is the pursuer in the relationship and the other seeks distance or space. Maybe once you stopped "pursuing" your wife,(becoming the "distancer"), she changed roles and began pursuit. We all need some degree of autonomy (feeling we are okay and capable within ourselves) and intimacy (we can connect to other humans with healthy, appropriate boundaries.) Just a thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psylocke:
<strong>I am not only a christain and she too, but a Pastor. She seperated not only in this area but in every area. We have 2 children girls who are still at home their ages are 11 and 15. **SO SHE SEPARATED IN THE AREAS OF BEING A CHRISTIAN AS WELL AS A PASTOR'S WIFE AND MOTHER OF 2 DEAR CHILDREN. SO NOW SHE WANTS TO NO LONGER BE SEPARATE FROM THESE THINGS?**

I finally knew in time I needed more proof and I happen to tape her phone conversation with her new partner. ..becasue of my peeking and looking into her world, it broke all trust according to her. **EXCUSE ME? BROKE ALL TRUST ACCORDING TO HER??? WHAT ABOUT HER BREAKING ALL TRUST BY STOMPING NOT ONLY ON YOUR HEART, BUT ALSO YOUR SACRED WEDDING VOWS?**

..that she felt our marriage was over a long time ago she just did'nt know it until some new things convinced her of it. **SO THEN WHAT REASON IS SHE GIVING YOU NOW THAT 'THE MARRIAGE WAS OVER' - WHY HER SUDDEN CHANGE OF MIND? AND DID THE 'NEW THINGS THAT CONVINCED HER OF IT BEING OVER' - WHAT HAPPENED THAT THOSE 'NEW THINGS' CHANGED SO NOW SHE IS NOW CHANGING HER MIND AGAIN?**

..but I can't stop her future and I can't make her want this. She stated I wanted control, that I'm demanding. That I am fixed. She wanted indepedence, change and newness. **SO NOW SHE IS ACTING LIKE SHE WANTS HER FUTURE WITH YOU BACK - EVEN THOUGH ACCORDING TO HER, YOU'RE 'CONTROLLING AND DEMANDING' - WHAT CHANGED? WHAT HAPPENED TO HER INDEPENDENCE SHE JUST HAD TO HAVE? DID THE 'NEWNESS' WEAR OFF THAT QUICKLY?**

We went to the Marriage Builders seminar and she stated at the closing that she could not sign or agree to working on our marriage becasue she does not want to be married. **SO WHY DOES SHE ACT LIKE SHE WANTS TO BE MARRIED AGAIN FOR? WHAT CHANGED HER MIND?**

..but the realality is she is a new person and has new convictions. **SO WHAT ARE THESE 'NEW CONVICTIONS SHE HAS? HOW CAN SHE HAVE ANY CONVICTIONS THAT ARE RIGHT WHEN SHE BROKE THE MOST SACRED VOW A PERSON CAN MAKE BEFORE MAN AND GOD?**

..She on the other hand wants to know more now about my life, the congregation certain decisions and on. **SO WHAT BUSINESS IS IT OF HERS NOW - SHE WAS THE ONE WHO SAID SHE NO LONGER WANTED TO BE PART OF YOUR LIFE! I'D TELL HER SO, BECAUSE SHE IS TRYING TO CAKE-WALK WITH YOU. THESE ARE QUESTIONS AND POINTS YOU NEED TO MAKE WITH HER AND MAKE SURE SHE GETS THE POINT AND SINCE SHE CHOSE TO BUST UP YOUR MARRIAGE, THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY FOR SUCH ACTIONS, AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT REVENGE EITHER.**
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pastor, I would definitely be asking her those questions - because sounds like she got tired of her 'new exciting life' and saw that the grass was NOT greener on the other side of the fence. Or perhaps OM dumped her. Perhaps he saw that if she would cheat on her current-husband, then he couldn't trust her not to cheat on him if she got tired of him too. Who knows? I would definitely be asking her those hard questions and don't take some BS vague platonic shallow response for an answer - she needs to see this is serious business here!
Just my $.02 worth.
Harold

HI psylocke,
This will be long... I'm sorry BUT I find a lot of the above advice disturbing... your W... (that's your W-I-F-E the one you told God.....etc....) is reaching out to you.. and people are telling you that a BS is WRONG for loving "unconditionally" the very DEFINITION of love is UNCONDITIONAL.
I am a Christian and have been in your (and MUCH worse) situation (see below) and one thing I stuck by is that I loved unconditionally
Sure the bible gives us grounds for divorce because of infidelity but God never said we HAD to divorce because of an A either..

Telling you "I would expect full disclosure from her of her true feelings , (which she has NO IDEA what they are and PUSHING HER TO TELL is a BIG BIG LOVE BUSTER) and actions speak louder than words. (maybe... but not always...) and.... "Look for deceit. Hate to say this, but they are not to be trusted for a long time." OK, somewhat true but.... VERY VERY harsh and an unloving Hardly a WWJD attitude.. Your W is not a "bad person" she's in a bad situation..


To answer your question about WHY when you "back off" your W seems to come forward... this is what I believe..

When we try and control this situation (which there is NO WAY to control this...) God steps back and allows us to "go for it" and the results (at least in most cases I've seen) is disaster...

When WE step back and do what we are supposed to be doing which is a lot of SELF analization (sp?) and SELF soul searching to find what WE DID... yes..... WE DID to allow our spouses to get to that weakest point that an affair could take hold.. (sorry.. not that we/anyone deserves this but..)
does God step in and work for us...

Once you really really understand the ways your W felt unloved and/OR unwanted (no matter how much you tried to show her love if she didn't feel it....) the pain will be less and more importantly the ANGER (you reading BtrayedHsbnd ?) will lessen too..

Enough so YOU can start to fill those needs that the OM was/is filling because you love UNCONDITIONALLY and that means filling her needs......not because this will make her come home (condition) but because you LOVE....it will take a while but once she learns to trust the "new you" (or really the OLD you that she fell in love with enough to marry) she most likely WILL come home.....NO GUARANTEE... but what have you done but LOVE.... isn't that what GOD wants of us ANYWAY???
OOPS.... here's the PRIDE thing coming.....it sounds like this...

YOU MEAN THAT I....THE ONE THAT WAS BETRAYED AND HURT AND LIED TO AND HUMILIATED etc... NOW IT HAS TO BE ME THAT LOVES AND GETS NOTHING BACK?

In a word YES....because your Wife is NOT a bad person that "can't be trusted for a long time" She is a LOST SOUL.

I have a painting in my home that gave me a lot of strength when my W and I were apart.. it's a Shepard reaching over a mountain's edge stretching to his limit..... to reach this lost sheep. A huge hawk circled over head just waiting for him to give up.

I pictured the sheep as my W and the hawk as the OM (with Satan's help) out there waiting to devour her...
and the ONLY way you can snatch YOUR W from the hawk... is to LOVE HER BACK.....and if she never does... the WORST that can happen is that YOU HAVE LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY...as GOD wants us to.........and love is ALWAYS returned.....TEN fold.

Well... I hope I wasn't to long winded... and I will pray for your Marriage... GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

Can someone tell me where to find Plan A and Plan B.

psylocke,

If you go to the Just Found Out section a look for Onegoing's posts, there is collection of posts that will discuss plan A/B. I also think in TooMuchCoffeeMan's ending signature there are bookmarks to the posts you seek. Also, ForeverHers, has such posts bookmarked in his signature section.

Well, Psylocke, it is hard to say, but it seems normal sometimes when you push, they pull, when you pull, they push. I went and read all of your posts and I would say that you should continue on with your separation.

I am sure you don't know PLEASE HELP'S story, but it is a very uplifting one. I remember very clearly when he came to MB. You should get him to show you some of the key posts or give you an abbreviated story.

However, there is also a man who used to post here that was in your situation, and to this day 3-4 years later his W is at best a roommate. She will not be a W. Why? Because the man would NOT take action.

I think your thoughts on separation or continuing on that path are reasonable. But, doing plan A as you go might be best.

The real situation is that while she will talk with you she has taken no action to support the idea that she wants the marriage. You have learned a hard lesson in that they can only change themselves, and then only do that when they want to.

I would suspect in your line of work, this concept is very hard, since you are in the business of helping people. It is a shame and hard to face that we are so limited.

In any event, look at the posts I mentioned and you will find the plan A info.

God Bless,

JL

Dear Just learning,
I really want to thank you for your words. They were timely and in my opinion the words that fit my convictions. I am loving her despite where she is, and I know this speration phase must go further if I am to truly get through this and prove to her where I am at as a man. I believe she's waiting for me to fall and try to cling to her again. But, I have done all that I can to prove I can let her go. I looked at plan a and plan b and I think I'm kinda in between both. Mainly because she has stopped the orignal affiar, but she's open to having the possiblity of a new one. We can not agree on anyhting she needs for herself, in fact to her this chapter is closed. So, I began to really dwell on the seperation position. I can not force her or make her look at me, but I can fulfill my destiny for God and then be a man that perhaps will have the woman because I am the man.
Well, that's it and thanks everybody for all your comments.

psylocke,

In another words, you are going to Plan A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is about several things: no Love Busters, working on yourself, and meeting EN's as she will let you.

I think if you continue on the path that you have mentioned she MIGHT see what she is losing, but remember there is a withdrawal period following the end of an affair. In that period the WS's can be complete idiots <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Seriously, it is a mourning period for the lose of a dream that had no chance.

So move along your path, but be gracious in your dealings with her. That doesn't mean you don't have boundaries, or cannot object to something she says or does. It just means you do it without love busters. I like the word grace for this situation. I think it is a very subtle and powerful word.

It isn't often used to describe the behavior of the male of the species, but it is applicable I feel. Us guys can indeed act with "grace". I think in your line of work, that word carries the correct connotation.

I apologize because I don't recall but I seemed to recall you do have children. Are they with you or your W? What is their situation and have you and W decided how to handle them?

Must go. I do hope something I have said is of use.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I do have one question, and I keep forgetting to ask. When you say separated, do you mean that she is living elsewhere? I think at this point it would be a good idea. I also went back and saw that you have two children. Do they know what is going on? How are you addressing this situation?

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

I am staying at home during the seperation. Also, the kids are fully aware of the circumstances. I am staying in another room and we have no contact at all. It's the way it is until I am in the position to change it or she is. She thinks it's good I stay home to lessen the finacial load on the family. It was hard at first but it's working. Thanks for your comments about sticking to plan A and giving grace.

psylocke,

Do you have a timeline to reevaluate the situation?

If not I think you need to get one. You have been to a Harley workshop so you know they are big on plans. I think they are correct. Without it you will drift along at the whims and whimsy of your W. That is not good for you and actually it isn't good for your marriage.

You should develop a timeline to reevaluate the situation: real physical separation or not, file for divorce or not. You situation is so similar to an old poster here, and his W never changed. She didn't have to. After affair she decided she didn't need sex, or any real connection to her H as long as he brought home the pay check, lived there and helped with the kids, and PRETENDED to be a happy family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This has been going on for almost 4 years now with no change in sight. I personally feel that it is his fault because he didn't have the nerve to move out and separate. She had all she wanted and he trapped himself.

So seriously think about a plan for evaluation and action. I have a bad feeling that your W will allow you to be Daddy, provider, and phantom H for as long as you can take it. It is to her advantage as long as it costs her nothing.

So do the plan A, but also do as the Harley's often counsel set timelines, and decide on actions ahead of time, so that they are well thought out and not done in the heat of passion or pain.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

To Just learning,
I would like to share that I have reflected on a timeline, and God is revealing even as we speak the avenues to take. It is still recent with where we are, but I see that it is clear that my wife may let this drag on. So I have begun to share with her ideas that give the both of us what we need to live. WE ARE SHARING THE DEFINING OF WHAT THIS SEPARATION IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE. I think she is more comfortable with it (or giving the appearance of it) becasue it's hard for her to change what she stood flatfooted for, it hard to drop pride, and the ego, and the selfish spirit. So I think this most go to other levels before she will ever change. The thing is; I was not only dealing with my marriage but changes with my occuaption and with my role. Today God has presented an opportunity that is the offer of a lifetime. We have been in financial bondage becasue ministry did'nt pay well and I had to have and additional job just to make ends meet. My wife has been the back bone of our finances for years. Now, all that changes! This is huge! I feel like God has heard my prayers to take care of my family. My wife has complained about the amount of funds I generated in the name of God. My positon was always; "well it's what apparently God has in mind". But with all the changes with us, and God has exposed, and Marriage builders showed the emotional needs that she wanted substanial financial support. This is awesome! I don't think it will change things right away, in fact I think the seperation must go further in order for her to really reflect what she might wanna reconsider.

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: psylocke ]</small>

Dear Psychlocke,

My heart goes out to you. I'm no stranger to knowing the feelings of betrayal.

I have seen a couple stay in the same house
during seperation. For about 1 yr now, they
have slept in seperate bedrooms. The wife kicked the husband out of the bedroom cause she can't stand that he is a big man. He was a big man when they married, but a very sweet man. The wife had an affair with a 19 yr old about 5 yrs ago, may be more. The husband forgave her and kept her home, but after many couselors (I mean many), marriage seminars, and all, nothing got better. She just got so mean. Wanted everything her way. He went to a lawyer a few months ago, was ready to file. Then for some reason his wife talked him into not doing it.
On thier anniversary last week, he got a letter
from a lawyer of hers, she's filing for divorce. He had tried everything. He even sent her a dozen red rosed that day. 1 month ago
payed off her credit cards, (very large amount),
bought her brand new stove and dishwasher, working overtime to do it. And just being the sweet person he is. He says he is "done" this time, and I don't blame him. He took yrs of abuse from that woman, yrs I wouldn't have wasted. And her son who is 16 (from previous husband), only learned to disrespect his step-father, because that was he saw for so many yrs of his mother doing it to her husband. That's what makes staying in the household with children wrong. I think there is room for "tough love" in a situation like that.
I don't think it is healthy to seperate that way especially with chilren in the home. If you are going to separate, do not stay in the same house together. If finances are a problem, don't you believe God to provide that also, if you were to move out? Believe me finances don't hold me back from anything. Your children must be having a difficult time with it. How do they feel? Do they fill tense in a house where the 2 parents are in seperate rooms and never talking.
Not being a complete family?

Have you read the article here "What Children Learn about Infidelity?"

I was thinking last night that trying to fulfill the EN's at this point in my marriage is nothing but a performance game, with out feelings or love, it is no use. The feelings that came so natural, and EN's that were so easy to fulfull and came naturally and spiritually are gone.
It happened through my husbands dishonesty. I can't make the feelings come back in my heart that made it so easy to love him. I've prayed and prayed, and the feelings still have not come
back. I feel my husband ruined it all. I can't trust him. He is a christian, and has been very sneakily hiding things from me the past yr, but God always makes me find out. For a man who prided himself of the way "he always keeps his
word" he has shown me totally different.

I would think that your wife is very embarrassed
about what she did, but not willing to admit it at this point. Not only is it embarrassing to her before you, but also before a church congregation, and God. She may be having the
most difficult time with that.

Don't allow your heart strings to be played like a fiddle
I agree.

Sent with Love, Ladysheep

Psylocke here's the link to What Are Plan A And Plan B? .

Hey guys I need your input. You all know my situation, and me and my wife have been seperated but not legally. Now I have been moving in that direction and I have shared that we most likely would go in that direction. I had a scheduled date to be at Family court to get the papers down for tomorrow. I had misplaced the papers, and my W seemed like it was no big deal, but now I found the papers, and she did give the marriage license as well. When I told her that I found the papers she displayed no feeling. The time is first thing in the morning so please get with me asap with some insight. I feel like I have no choice but proceed. But I still like to hear from you guys.
Psylocke

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: psylocke ]</small>

psylocke,

If you are expecting that the "threat" of separation or even divorce will change her, don't bother. In most of the cases posted here, it takes awhile AFTER such actions for the WS to respond IF they respond at all.

So if you feel you have to do it, then do it. I would be surprised if she does much of anything. She may feel right now that your are making her decisions for her, and that is cool with her. But, it is possible that later she may change her perspective on things.

Good luck and God Bless,

JL

Well,
I resigned as the Pastor so that I can focus on my daughters and my family, and myself. I can't be of no good for no one until I take care of me.
I was so in no man's land, I had been there for 16 years. My wife had voiced her concerns for most of the time as not wanting me in this capacity. The thing is I realize I have been forced to change, it was not really the route I would have taken, but it is what it is.

Now life begans brand new. I have a whole new place to build, and it somewhat scary becasue it is new territory. MY children seem to be in a state of flux, not knowing what is going to happen next. My wife on the other hand, seems happy with all the decisions. She thinks the church has stiffled us and made more in love with it than her. She thinks I need change becasue she will never come back the way she left, spiritually, emotionally, intectually, and mentally. Now I stand all alone from a human perspective, all my connections have been severed becasue also I shared with them from my perspective the things of the heart, and someone got back to my W and communicated what they thought I was saying. Now she feels that I displayed a form of defammation of character with sharing from only one side. I was only looking for support and whating somewhat to give feedback, looks like that did'nt work.

Just when I thought I was breaking through the barrier, something else shows and reveals itself. I wish I could wake up from this dream. I realize more and more I must leave the premises even though I know it ruins my chance for custody with the girls. I must leave becasue of the emotional ties with my W and her place to keep me out of her life. I'm depending on my God, but I need I extra pouring of faith.