Okay ---

There's a part of me that understands this process, and a part of me that is entirely too confused.

I know when guys 'reject' or don't call back after the first date - that they perceive you to be 'the wrong person' --- but where does that perception come from?

I've dated several guys - and with very few exceptions - wanted to get to know the guy better. Maybe not for 'long term benefits' but because he was an interesting person - and I wanted to know him better. Probably something along the lines of - I like you as a friend, and you are really appealing to me, lets get to know each other and see if something develops.

I'm not sure I believe in 'love at first sight' and if I do, I believe that it's that kind of love that dies fast. I want to build on friendship first.... Is there anyone else who feels this way too? Is it a 'girls only' thing? Or what are some ideas from the rest of you?

Jan

I haven't been in the dating scene (with WW out of high school), but being separated I know I could not get involved in any relationship without being friends first.

IMHO relationships built on friendship will go much further because you will have a solid foundation for the future when trouble hits.

Eduard --

As a guy - what do you base that friendship on?

What kinds of things do you 'require' in a 'friendship'?

I'm not being picky here - I really want to know.

Jan

As far as dating is concerned... I have had to figure out many things on my own as well. I, for one, have been one of those guys who go out for one date, but do not feel the desire to go out on more. I don't know... the first woman that I dated was so insecure that she spoke about how "cute" our waitress was and how 'NO ONE looked like that when we were in college' etc. I just sat there and thought... Wow, here I am with a beautiful woman, I am NOT looking at anyone else, and yet she is so insecure that all she can talk about is our waitress. I didn't need or want a second date to know that she was not someone that I could see myself with.

I know that you are saying that perhaps you could just be friends... that could be true. But that is not the goal of going out on a date. Not the ultimate goal. At least not from my standpoint. I ask women on dates to meet them and see if they might be someone that I would like to see again, with the future goal of a serious relationship. Some guys go out for the sake of going out ONLY. Some guys want sex. It just depends on what each person is looking for. I do know however, that it is unlikely that I will ever develop friendships with the women that I go out with. In the classical sense anyway. I mean, taking a woman out for dinner... is not the usual prelude to a 'regular' friendship. The connotations are that there could be a romantic relationship. At least that is how I am thinking when I ask someone.

I try to know them as best that I can, via email, phone, friends, etc. But it really comes down to how I feel when I am sitting next to her at a restaurant, baseball game, walk, etc. If 'it' isn't there, then I really don't want to lead her on.

Not to be brash... but I have had so many women repeatedly calling me after dates that I really don't know how to handle telling them that I really am not interested in anything further. I asked them out in order to see if there would be more interest on both our parts. On their part there has been, but thus far, not on mine. None has been due to looks. Today, I went out with a woman, and she said the word 'sh*t' at least 100 times during that time. I don't need another date to know that I don't want to hear that any longer. But that was just such a part of who she was, that I am sure she has no idea that it completely shut me off. Now what do I do??? Do I say "Thanks, but no thanks... I don't like your language?" She would look at me like I was nuts. That is just how she speaks. But I don't want it.

I don't know... I can understand that it is very frustrating. I have not gone out with anyone that I really wanted to go out with again. In some ways I feel guilty, I always call and tell them I had a nice time. But I DON'T ask them out again. I just let it rest. Perhaps this is not the way to do it... I don't know. I never give the inclination that I will be calling again. But I try to be polite.

What do I want??? I want for my date NOT to tell me she is on a diet. I want her NOT to tell me how much fat is in the salad dressing she is eating. I want her to be herself and NOT be self conscious about her appearance. I would rather have a woman with me a few pounds heavy, than to have the same woman with me, pointing it out. I want a woman to be funny, but not crude. To enjoy her job, at least in some fashion. Not to complain the entire evening about how she hates her boss. I want her to ask me if I will split a dessert with her. I want her to listen to my entire sentence or thought before she starts talking about something completely different. I want her to be just a touch sexy. Not overtly, but to just let me know that she can be if she wants. I want her to ask about my boys. I want her to show me a picture of her children. But I DON'T want them to dominate the conversation. I DON'T want her to grab for the check or even offer to pay or pay part for that matter. I know she can pay, that isn't the issue. I want her to show patience at the little old couple that is walking in front of us into the restaurant... that could be us in 40 years. I want her to order the most expensive thing on the menu if that is what she would like to have, but not just because she is testing me. I want her to look me in the eyes when I walk her to the car. I want her to allow me to open the door for her and NOT SAY ANYTHING other than "Thank you". I want her to accept that I am a man and she is a woman and we are different... and that is a good thing. I want her to not lie to me... saying one thing in an email then another in person. For instance... I was told by one woman she had never been to the mountains... ever. Then during the dinner I started talking about my home and she started saying how much she loved going to the mountains??? What gives??? I was just divorced by one of the biggest liars I have yet to encounter... do you think I will start off a relationship knowing that this person is picking up where my ex left off?

So it all comes down to "What are YOU looking for in the date and what is HE looking for?" For me, I am looking for someone that if everything went right, I could see myself eventually marrying and being proud that she has influence over my children. If I don't see either of these things, I see no reason to continue dating. If she wanted friendship, that is fine... but I don't want the friendship to be based upon me taking her to dinner or movies. And I doubt that the things I have seen in the women that I have been with are really traits that I would want in many of my friends anyway.

I am far from perfect... so very, very far. I understand that, and everyone has their faults... me at the top of the heap. But when I run into things that I KNOW I don't want, I don't want more interaction. I would rather take that time with my children, painting, or meeting someone else. Perhaps this way of dating is not what most people would deem 'right' I don't know. But I do know that for me... I wish there was a 'Sorry not interested' button that either she or I could push, letting each other know without the difficulty of feeling left out or 'rejected'.

Again, I always call... but I haven't called again as of yet. But I have found that I wish that there was a woman that I would want to date a second, third or tenth time. This has gotten old in a hurry.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Right on, Formerly Confused, you sound like you know yourself well, and that is the key to having a good relationship. I've at least learned this much from this horrible experience, that we first have to know, love, and respect ourselves before anyone else will.

sj*trouble*, Be grateful they didn't call back because they probably weren't right for you anyway. Yes, being friends first is very important, especially after experiencing the untrustworthiness of a lying, cheating spouse.

WOW FC ----

I'm self destructing...!

My rejection issues are so strong that they over rule my confidence... or undermine it...

DISCLAIMER: I'm not refuting your statements, just trying to grasp how they apply to me. Please feel free to reassemble my thinking with your own reply.

I don't mention dieting and I don't do the diet platter or anything like that, but I'm very conscious of my appearance. Though I try to dress comfortably so it isn't an issue.

The same STRONG INDEPENDENCE that gets me the date in the first place (at least most of them comment on that) - probably sends them scurrying away when I forget to let them open my door, or pick up the tab.

I think in my case, the 'first date' jitters are so undermining of my confidence, that I end up feeling like we need a second date just to recognize the real person. I understand the language thing, or even if a man is intensely in need of AS that I'm not his 'match', I just really hesitate to make a 'final' assumption - on the first date - because if he's half as nervous as I am, he probably didn't make his best impression either.

For instance, (a recent date) - I went out with a really nice guy, from a smaller town. It was storming really bad, and he kept watching the sky - long drive home, etc. By the end of the date, I was feeling exasperated, his conversation had been almost nil and he was extremely preoccupied. Next day - email, he mentioned that his daughter was camping with a friend and he was concerned about her safety and no way to contact her. Our first date was a total dud... But our second date later that week revealed that while we had a lot in common, I probably wasn't his type, and we both learned something... via email, he said, he thought I was too STRONG for him, too independent. I felt he was probably way too overbearing for the kind of life I have been leading, but I've had to be strong and independent. No option as a single parent.

It really opened my eyes to something. And I wonder how many guys realize that women who are not (20 something) are just not the innocent lovelies we were at that age, and we have been hurt and injured. We need a chance to regain that safety net - in order to let you be men - and become the ladies we want to be. And the same in reverse --- you guys aren't the untamed stalions you were in your 20's either, you have needs that require more than bebopping on the hood of your car.

Is it possible that the very essence of our lacking confidence and overpowering independence - is a need to feel safe? And your desire to see a confident and independent yet gentle and feminie woman is simply your need to nurture/support/care for the lady you are with?

By not risking the 'second date' with those who are not repulsive to us --- are we missing an opportunity to find the romance we desire?

Not suggesting here that you take a lady out on the second date if you have NO interest in her, but maybe if you have some interest, but she was stronger or more independent than you wanted, maybe you need to give her a second chance?

I sooooo want to ask for the second chance here. I don't think one date is enough opportunity for someone to see the real me. And I truly hope most of the men out there are not as shallow as I'm perceiving them to be on those first dates. I've found most of them are actually more 'human' on the second date. I may still not like them well enough to keep, but they at least loose their horns and pitchfork tail... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jan

Jan, I see what you are saying. However, I differ in my thoughts that being strong and independent needs to be shown by opening your own car door and picking up the tab. Being strong in my opinion is to be able to go along with the niceties of convention in some ways. I mean... I LOVE the thought of being chivalrous. We don't live in a time when I can slay the band of outlaws harrassing my lady. That has been changed into a convention of opening the car door. Simple, but it is the best I can do... for me and for her. My mom and dad brought me up to be a gentleman. I pride myself on trying to be at all times. I still have an EXTREMELY hard time going through a door first, when there is a woman anywhere close (with me or just on her way out.) That is just who I am, and I don't want to feel badly or disconcerted because she has to prove something to me. That she needs to PROVE that she doesn't need me to open the door for her. OF COURSE she doesn't need me to open it for her. She doesn't need me at all. I don't NEED her at all. What I want is to BE with her.

I don't want someone to nurture... although I love taking care of someone. I guess perhaps at the ripe old age of 34... I am just old fashioned. I pull their chair out for them... I take their coat and I help them put it back on. You would be surprised at the number of women who don't know how to let someone help them with their coat. I don't hold that against them, they have never been with me before... however, to feel that I am in some way 'TAKING' something from them... decreasing their independence is NOT what I want. I want someone to be confident enough in themselves to allow me to be a gentleman. And even if I were to take off my coat and cover a puddle... she would know that she could walk across it and still be the same strong person she was on the other side.

Yes... I understand that not everyone is calm on their first date... I have to say that I am rarely anxious. I don't exactly know why. I think it is because I read something in one of the myriad books that I have engulfed since all this divorce and dating started over a year and a half ago. It said... "When you are 20 you spend the entire date worrying about whether the other person likes you... When you are over 30 you worry about whether you like the other person." I have found that to be so true. I have also found that under NO circumstances will I be other than me. I am deathly afraid that I will portray someone that I am not and she fall for me. Then when the 'real' me comes out, she will be dissappointed. I am equally worried about the same in her. When they start bragging about themselves and their accomplishments instead of just talking about them, I get worried.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By not risking the 'second date' with those who are not repulsive to us --- are we missing an opportunity to find the romance we desire? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure... I suspect we could be. But that is the same as when I pass up the chance to talk to the woman at the gym... or to talk to the woman in the grocery line. Everyone has potential to be the perfect person for us. And just because I have eaten pasta across from one doesn't necessarily mean that she has MORE potential than anyone else. But if her language is 'bad' or if she is so insecure that I feel guilty looking away from her eyes... then there are 'minuses' rather than nothing. I know... and I would not let a few little things turn me away quickly. Perhaps it is a defense mechanism on my part. I am not looking for things, but when they get put into my face over and over again... I would be stupid to overlook them thinking there might be more. Of course there is more. But does that mean that the blatantly obvious means nothing?

I don't know... this has become a very good thread for me. It makes me evaluate the dates I have been on and the women that I have met in the last few months. I WANT the strong and independent woman... I just want her to not have to shove it out there. I want her to be strong enough to allow me to be me. It is just like who is stronger... the tough guy who would never wear pink or the guy who knows who he is and has two pink shirts? For me... I don't have to prove myself, I just want to be who I am and actually, who I think I should be as well. We all have certain 'parts' to play, and that doesn't mean that I would not let her take ME to dinner. I would LOVE that... I would LOVE for her to ask me out. To ask if she could pick something out and order for me... (I never order for them... sheesh I am not overbearing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) But the thought that someone cared enough about me to want to do those things lovingly sets my heart blazing. I know who I am, and I don't need to open the car door for her to prove to her or myself who I am. It is just WHO I AM and want to be.

My problem is also that I am a doctor. I worry about women liking me more for my money (potential) than for me. I also have two boys that are everything to me. I will not put them in the position to be in any way compromised. I will see how things pan out over the next few months. I might be revising these statements completely... or I might be adding to them.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

FC,

I like what you had to say. You do sound like you have learned a lot about yourself.
I agree with being honest. I hate game playing.
People who play games when dating are not authentic.
The problem is that most people don't know who they are.
It's not good to go after a relationship unless you are content being alone.
I agree with having male friends as well as female.
I have seen some friendships blossom into more.
I think the idea SJ has is to start as friends to avoid game playing. She sounds like she wants to be herself with a men.
In our world, women are taught to put on a show.
Yuck!
None of my single girlfriends nor I want this.
We are smart, sexy and have a lot to offer and don't want to be played for sex.

Aly

In all sincerity... When I open the door for myself, it is NOT because I don't want my guy to open the door, or because I'm trying to prove my strength to him. It's generally because I've always had to do it, and I forgot to wait for him to do it. So if he says, hey, I'll get that. I grin, let him and say Thank you. Because I appreciate being treated like a lady. or even if I realize that he was headed for the door and I've already opened it - I sometimes, say, "oops, I forgot what a wonderful gentleman you are." and it's sincere - I'm not making fun of him.

I'm 43 and I'm finding that I have nothing to prove. I didn't WANT to be "liberated" - I was born into it. I grew up bucking bales of hay with the boys next door. Daddy didn't have a son. I married and my ex expected me to irrigate, run the farm hand, and bring in as much as he did (financially) - although that isn't what he said before I said "I do". I can do whatever I have to do to survive. The fact is I want a differnt life. I'm not after anyone's money, I can make my own, but I'd rather stay home and take care of my kids and/or his kids, keep my guy's home nice, and be available to care for him.

I guess what I'm saying is, if a guy likes me, and I inadvertently don't follow the script, how am I to know if he doesn't mention it? I guess kind of in the same way, if he steps over my boundaries, and I don't say, "Let's not go there at this point in time." How is he to know that I don't want to go that far?

Isn't this where openness and honesty come into play on a date?

How much of dating is 'testing' or 'game playing' on the part of the gentleman, to see how far he can get with this lady?

IF I am really comfortable with a guy and he takes my hand on the first date, it isn't overstepping my personal boundaries. A for instance, if we are walking together and he puts his arm around me and I feel 'protected' not 'invaded', I often don't say anything about him overstepping that boundary either.

I'm thinking that my feeling/reactions are probably natural and honest in that I am not 'testing' my date, so much as wanting to respond to him naturally, and hoping he's not 'testing' me, because I just want to be myself. Therefore my boundaries are not set in stone, but rather more fluid - going with my feelings of the moment, without being tense or specifically 'stated'.

Does any of this make sense??? And if it does. How do guys feel about this kind of open honesty - in dating?

Am I being TOO open and honest? Should I have strict boundaries....

* No kissing til date #4
* No hand holding til date #2
* No hugs until he's bought dinner three times and taken me to two wonderful events.
* No touching (meaning pats on the back, etc.)until after he's proposed.

I'm being honest here - I don't know what is expected, and being myself doesn't 'feel' like it is working. I've met some really nice guys that I felt a connection with on the first date and wanted to get to know better, and I haven't felt like they over stepped my boundaries - but they stop at the first date - and I'm wondering what is up with that...

I'm not pushy - If they say Thanks for the date. End of conversation - I leave it there. If they say, Thanks for the date call me sometime, and I happen to have 'tickets' for an event I think they might like, I call them.

One 'single dad' has joined me (all the kids) for several kid events, but he seems to spend his concentration on the kids, paying no attention to me other than just another adult. I quit asking him after the second time, because I feel used... But I really liked him as a person, when it was one on one.

Thanks for all the input! I really am finding this helpful.

Jan

FC.....your posts are so good, especially the first one! I wish MORE men dated the way you do. Unlike Jan, I have the problem of always getting called for a second date....most of which I"ve decided don't have a future. I also look for signs of what I don't want, and I'm beginning to wonder if there are any men out there with stable jobs and minimal issues.

Jan, I used to be so self conscious about my looks.....my ex criticized me constantly. I have been amazed to discover how many men find me attractive! I'm not thin...5'4", 190 lbs.....but I have an hourglass figure and excersize so I'm more muscular and not flabby. I wear dresses most of the time because they are more attractive on me than pants. So, my advice is to find out what clothiing styles look best on you, and wear them. Then throw out your ideas of what men like......cuz they are all different. Some guys like really petite women, some guys like huge women......and alot of guys don't care about that as much as that you look your best and have a positive attitude.

I think the reason I get so many dates is attitude. Go into the date happy. Don't complain about anything. If the restaurant is horrible, laugh about it. A positive attitude will get you so much farther.....and don't fear rejection. I mean, do you really want EVERY man to fall in love with you? Nope, just one. Keep your chin up and a smile on your face and he'll come along.

FC.....your posts are so good, especially the first one! I wish MORE men dated the way you do. Unlike Jan, I have the problem of always getting called for a second date....most of which I"ve decided don't have a future. I also look for signs of what I don't want, and I'm beginning to wonder if there are any men out there with stable jobs and minimal issues.

Jan, I used to be so self conscious about my looks.....my ex criticized me constantly. I have been amazed to discover how many men find me attractive! I'm not thin...5'4", 190 lbs.....but I have an hourglass figure and excersize so I'm more muscular and not flabby. I wear dresses most of the time because they are more attractive on me than pants. So, my advice is to find out what clothiing styles look best on you, and wear them. Then throw out your ideas of what men like......cuz they are all different. Some guys like really petite women, some guys like huge women......and alot of guys don't care about that as much as that you look your best and have a positive attitude.

I think the reason I get so many dates is attitude. Go into the date happy. Don't complain about anything. If the restaurant is horrible, laugh about it. A positive attitude will get you so much farther.....and don't fear rejection. I mean, do you really want EVERY man to fall in love with you? Nope, just one. Keep your chin up and a smile on your face and he'll come along.

The main reason I don't like the idea of dating is that I don't ever want to be in a position where I "lead someone on" - however unintentionally. The dating scene is fraught with the perils of missed and misunderstood signals.

There are many women whom I like and admire, and with whom I enjoy socializing. But I don't want to date a woman unless I believe that she is a legitimate candidate for marriage. In the vast majority of cases, by the time I have become friends with a woman I have learned enough about her to know that - however much I might enjoy interacting with her - I would not want to spend the rest of my life with her. It does not usually take much interaction for me to make that assessment.

Consider this: at least for an introvert like me, home is a place to recharge. If I go home day after day to a wife who has a personality which drains my energy - however enjoyable that process may be! - I'm going to be in trouble. If our values - whether lifestyle or moral - are too different, there's going to be constant tension. If I marry a woman who sees the world too much like I do, she's not going to stimulate me as much as someone who can continually show me new perspectives. If I marry a woman who sees the world too differently, I'm never going to understand her well enough to be comfortable with her.

It's a very, very fine line. In all my life, I've only met two women who I believed to be potentially a good match after getting to know them about as well as I might expect to get to know them on a single date. (And remember, this is coming from a guy who, generally speaking, probably finds it easier to socialize with women than with men.)

Would I enjoy a date with many of the "non-candidate" women? Oh, there's no doubt about it. Of course I would. Many of them I'd very much like to know better (although in truth many of these women are already married - which actually makes it easier since I can invite them to dinner with their husbands and get to know two interesting people at the same time).

But regardless of what I would enjoy, I simply do not want to engage in a ritual which is traditionally and therefore emotionally associated with courtship, when courtship is not my intention. I don't want a woman "falling in love" with me when I am convinced that I will never be able to reciprocate.

Am I arrogant in thinking that this is a significant risk? You tell me. Would you be in any danger of "falling in love" with someone who was good-looking, who was well-educated and well-employed, who was intelligent and articulate and witty (albeit pedantic), who listened to you with genuine interest and treated you with genuine respect, who was emotionally open and honest and centered, who was creatively talented and had numerous interests and passions, and who encouraged you to be yourself?

Maybe, or maybe not. (The woman I'm interested in doesn't show any sign of succumbing to my charms. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) But I'd rather spend my time on less emotionally suggestive methods of developing friendships than dating rituals. If a friendship eventually (and unexpectedly) develops into something more, then...great!

All this said, I don't believe that there is anything wrong with dating. I can even see where it could be useful in getting to know someone who you think you might possibly develop a serious interest in, and with whom you have no other significant opportunities for social interaction. If I ever find myself in that position, I don't think I would hesitate to ask for a date. But in general, since I believe that a strong relationship is built more on friendship than on romance, I don't think my approach is at all backward.

As far as openness and honesty is concerned, I don't really care what is expected by other people. I am as open and honest as I can be, and I very much appreciate and respect a woman being open and honest with me. I believe that when you are not afraid to reveal who you really are, it demonstrates a level of strength and self-assurance that is critical to the success of a relationship. That's an important thing for the other person to know. If it scares them off, then they aren't ready for a relationship.

I believe that behavioral boundaries are good things, although personally I would base them on level of commitment rather than on the number of dates. For example, I think I might stay away from kissing unless we were at least talking about the possibility of marriage.

Aly ---

I definitely want to be myself - whether I'm on a date or other situation.

Anna ---

I feel very confident most of the time. But my 'dating experience' is actually confined to those date's I've had the last year. I didn't date in HS (wasn't allowed), met my first H through friends (never dated, just times together with family and friends), my second H and I worked together - and he never did anything FUN that wasn't related to his work - with me. So this is a new experience, and I'm a bit unsure of how to 'behave' since, to my way of thinking I should just be me -- but evidently that isn't how it works.

Gnome ---

Socializing is extremely limited for me. I work from home, home school my kids (at home), and most of my other activities are extremely limited... Not particularly by choice, but simply by reality. I see very few new people, so meeting people is difficult.

I don't mind dating. I actually kind of enjoy the dates I've been on. I just need to know what the 'process' is - because I feel so far out of the loop.

I feel like I'm drawing on knowledge that doesn't exist. And I'd like to know what is expected from the guy's side - so I am not guessing how to behave.

I suppose I could write up a questionaire and have each prospective date fill one out before we go out... LOL

I'm being funny here too. I hope humor counts...

Jan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sj *trouble*:
<strong>I don't mind dating. I actually kind of enjoy the dates I've been on. I just need to know what the 'process' is - because I feel so far out of the loop. I feel like I'm drawing on knowledge that doesn't exist. And I'd like to know what is expected from the guy's side - so I am not guessing how to behave.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I shouldn't say anything, since my dating experience is actually less than yours. (I married the only woman I ever dated, and we were already engaged by the time we admitted to ourselves that we were dating: our relationship began as a friendship in which we explicitly agreed that romance was not what we were after.)

But I've spent a lot of time observing.

I think the reason you feel like you're drawing on knowledge that doesn't exist is that it really doesn't exist. There are as many different expectations as there are people, and those expectations can be wildly divergent.

Personally, I vote for just being yourself, even though you say "evidently that isn't how it works." If being yourself doesn't work, then it's not the right relationship. Simple as that.

Well, no, not really. The other necessary ingredient is communication: if you've got a boundary being encroached on, or an expectation not being met, or a question not getting answered, communicate it. (A big problem, of course, is that we are often not consciously aware of our expectations.)

The biggest problem with the dating scene is that for some stupid reason it's apparently considered inappropriate to talk about the very things that are uppermost in one's mind. (Well, OK, the reason isn't really all that stupid: it's to minimize the possibility of hurt feelings. For example, if you come right out and ask "Do you like me and do you intend to ask me out again? If not, why not?", a truthful answer could well be painful. The stupid part is the failure to recognize that leaving someone wondering and hanging is perhaps even more painful.)

My opinion is that if the rules of the dating game are so poorly drawn, we should feel free to make our own, and lay them out ahead of time. I wouldn't even dismiss the idea of the questionaire. Humor does count, and if a prospective date can't see that idea as a funny, creative, and efficient means of learning valuable information - not to mention really good fodder for conversation - then he may not be a very good companion anyway.

The bottom line is, I don't see much point in trying to figure out what the process is (because there isn't one). I think it's much more useful to figure out what you want your process to be.

Of course, following my advice is a good way to end up with people thinking you are kind of...odd. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (For myself, I don't care, because people tend to think I'm kind of odd anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I love this thread. I think we can all learn so much from each other here, and this is a fabulous example. So many of us never thought we would be entering back into the world of dating again. As a woman, I like hearing the man's point of view, and I also like to commiserate with my fellow single women.

I agree with Formerly Confused in that I can usually tell if I want to spend more time with someone after one date. There are certain things that I am looking for, and I may or may not see these things in the first date. And then there are things I am avoiding like the plague, and if I see any of them on the first date, I know to run far away. There could be a happy medium, where I haven't seen any evidence of appalling characteristics, but neither am I walking on air with hearts in my eyes like in the cartoons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> In that situation I'd be willing to go on a second date.

I have figured out that I like my life, quite a lot actually. So my biggest qualification is "Would this person in my life make it better? And could I make his life better?" There are things I know right away are non-negotiable. He must love God and try to lead a Godly life. I can usually tell if someone is on the same page as I am in this respect. Clues that they weren't would be cursing, drinking heavily, making inappropriate sexually suggestive remarks, or things like that. Now I've been known to let loose with a 'damn' if an anvil falls on my head, and my sense of humor is not prudish by any stretch, but there is a time and a place for things. I'm also not suggesting we spend all of dinner debating Paul's letter to the Ephesians, but do you know what I mean when I say you can kind of tell if religion is important to someone?

The person I want to date again loves kids and thinks our weekly hike in Rocky Mountain National Park is not only cool but wants to join us! I need to be able to picture him doing things with my family. Now I know for a fact that just the fact that I have 3 young children places me on many of the "What I'm NOT looking for" lists. And that is ok. I met someone really great (potentially) who was honest enough at the very beginning to say "I really like you and I'd love to see where this is going, but the fact that you have 3 young children is too much for me." I'm so glad he was honest enough to say this up front, as I wasn't emotionally involved, and I just respected him for it. I need for someone to understand that while I take my role as mother terribly seriously, I also love to feel sexy and womanly and to flirt. I think sometimes people think the two can't coincide. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope I don't offend at this next "want" of mine, but it is really important to me. I love to verbally spar and wittily banter with a date. But I also love to discuss current events and to be able to have great discussions about the environment or the peace process or about that person's interesting work. I guess I need someone that is educated and intelligent. I sat next to someone on the plane today (I had the best trip to Lake Tahoe and San Francisco!! but I am so happy to get my kids back from their week with their dad) and he was really nice and obviously interested. I'm trying to write this in a way that doesn't make me sound conceited, because this doesn't happen all the time at all....but anyway, we were talking and it was pretty clear that while he was nice and fairly good looking, we were on different levels educationally. It isn't that I couldn't have had a good time if I agreed to a date, but a long term relationship just couldn't work out. Could he have really had his doctorate in philosophy and I just didn't give it a big enough chance? Possibly, but highly doubtful. I'm no rocket scientist, and I'm only just now working on my Master's, so it isn't like I need a Mensa partner. I just wanted to be stimulated by the conversation. Is that so wrong?

I am terrible at the turning the next date down. I've had to become much less polite and a little more assertive. I've found myself using the "It's not you, it's me" speech George uses on Seinfeld. Maybe guys could give me some suggestions on how it would be taken the easiest?

Also, I read above that guys would love it if a girl asked them out. I CAN'T!! Just like FC has been taught to open a door for a lady, I've been taught to let him to that, but also to let him ask me out, AND to let him call. In theory, I'm not opposed to making the first move, but in practice I just can't go against my training. Should I fight my traditional gender role training, or just accept it??!

Ok, there are my random comments and various questions for the peanut gallery.
Krista

Don't use the "it's not you, it's me" routine. It is always the other person, as the show says.

I went on a date on Saturday, and I did not have a very fun time. I will not be calling her again, as I do not want to lead her on. At the same time, I don't think that she would accept another date, as it was a bad one.

I am on the lookout for characteristics that I do not want to deal with. I don't really know if it is age, because I turn 24 in a short timeframe, and I am already picky about what I want.

FC is right about dating behavior. A lady should be treated like a lady and act like one. If not, too bad. I'm sure that the ladies want the men to act like gentlemen. If not, too bad.

It is my observation that too many women are too preoccupied with their own insecurities and do not realize that a man doesn't go out on a date if he is not interested. Something on the date might happen that decreases the interest. It's no big deal. Another will come along.

A friend of mine gave me some advice lately: "Women are like buses...when one leaves, another one comes along." I wouldn't take dating too seriously. It's when you start to get in trouble.

heh heh heh....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I arrogant in thinking that this is a significant risk? You tell me. Would you be in any danger of "falling in love" with someone who was good-looking, who was well-educated and well-employed, who was intelligent and articulate and witty (albeit pedantic), who listened to you with genuine interest and treated you with genuine respect, who was emotionally open and honest and centered, who was creatively talented and had numerous interests and passions, and who encouraged you to be yourself? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Will you marry me???

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh

From one of the Q&A columns on this site:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> While we are on the subject of compatibility, however, there are five criterion that I recommend to those who are looking for a marriage partner. The reason I have picked these five, which are usually not found in most tests of compatibility, is that incompatbility in any of theicularly difficult to implement. As a psychologist, I save marriages by showing spouses how to change their behavior to create a fulfilling marriage. But the categories that I will share with you now are traits that even trained psychologists have great difficulty trying to change. And so when you date, look for compatibility in these areas.

1. Intelligence. You and he should be roughly equivalent in intelligence, within about 15 IQ points. Without having to take an IQ test, you can usually figure that out by comparing grades in school, although men are notorious underachievers in high school. College grades are a better measure of intelligence for both men and women. The quality of your conversation is another good indicator of compatible intelligence. Men who are stimulating to talk to are usually in your league intellectually. But if there is a large gap between you in IQ, both of you will tend to be bored by your conversation. The one with the highest IQ will find the conversation to be superficial, and the one with the lowest IQ won't be able to keep up. There is also a tendency of someone with a higher IQ to disrespect the judgments of the one with the lower IQ, and that's an absolute relationship killer. Respect is essential in marriage regardless of the quality of an opinion. If you both enjoy talking to each other for hours at a time, and you respect each other's ideas, you pass the test.

2. Energy. You should marry someone roughly equivalent to you in energy. If one of you lays around watching TV while the other scurries about and can't sit still, it's probably a bad match. The reason energy is an important determiner of compatibility is that so many of your lifestyle pre-dispositions will depend on your energy. Leisure time activities and sexual interest are particularly sensitive to the amount of energy you have. People high in energy enjoy activities that burn that energy, even after work, while those with low energy levels would find such activities to be exhausting. And regarding sex, the more energy a person has, the more sex he or she tends to need. Since leisure activities and sex are two of the best ways to deposit love units after marriage, incompatibility in these areas can make it very difficult for a couple to stay in love.

3. Social Interest. If one of you is socially outgoing and the other is an introvert, that difference can make the planning of social activities very difficult. The Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that you don't do anything unless you can both agree, and in marriages of extroverts to introverts, their area of mutual social comfort is very narrow. The extrovert will not be able to get to know as many people as he or she would like because the introvert hates meeting new people. And the introvert will be constantly challenged to tread into the terrifying waters of introductions. Yet, I am very much opposed to spouses going their separate ways after marriage (one goes to a party and the other stays home), so the social interest difference require very creative solutions to keep them together yet make their social lives happy for both of them.

4. Cultural Background. Culture determines a host of personal sensitivities. Take Christmas, for example. In the American culture, Christmas is usually a big deal for most people. But imagine growing up in a family where every year Christmas was celebrated with zeal, only to discover after marriage that you cannot celebrate Christmas at all. The Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that you don't do anything unless you can both enthusiastically agree and because the person you married comes from a family that finds Christmas offensive, you do not celebrate it. Even if your spouse were to give you permission to celebrate Christmas, his background will still make such a celebration very uncomfortable to him. From my perspective, The Policy of Joint Agreement would rule Christmas out until a way is found to celebrate it with mutual enthusiasm.

Cultural background does not only dictate sensitivities, but it also dictates certain skills in meeting emotional needs. In some cultures, outward displays of affection are discouraged, and yet you may need that from the person you married. To meet your emotional need, he must not only go against his cultural training, but he must learn to do something that he was never taught.

Sometimes when two people are in love, they feel they can overcome cultural barriers. But that's usually because their relationship has been rather brief. They have not yet had to wrestle with some of the conflicts that culture imposes on them. I counseled one couple who had fallen in love, yet one could only speak Spanish and the other could only speak English. Granted they could eventually learn each other's language, but with that would come a host of cultural differences that might be much more difficult to overcome. Time eventually proved to both of them that their relationship was not meant to be.

5. Values. Moral values usually dictate how we behave. The Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty are moral values that I encourage all married couples to adopt because they create and sustain love. But even when these two important values are agreed to at the time of marriage, conflicts with other moral values can make the creation of a compatible lifestyle very difficult to achieve. Getting back to our Christmas example, it's a cultural difference that makes a spouse unskilled in knowing how to celebrate Christmas. But if you marry an Orthodox Jew, it's more than skill that will be a problem. He will probably be deeply offended by such a celebration. And that offense comes from his moral convictions, not just his cultural background. A discussion of values is always a good idea when on a date, because if you find your values to be very divergent, it will make it difficult for you to agree on a lifestyle that you enthusiastically share.

A question often asked in a compatibility test is "Would you be willing to give up your religion to please your spouse?" It's not really a fair question, because it usually doesn't come to that drastic measure. But the point is important, and I would rephrase the question a little differently. I would ask, "Do you have any beliefs that would prevent you from following the Policy of Joint Agreement?" That is actually more to the point. Is there some belief that is so important to you that you would be willing to let your spouse suffer rather that give it up? If so, you should be certain that your spouse shares the same belief.

The point in all of this is that wide differences in any of these five characteristics of people make it difficult, but not impossible, to create a compatible lifestyle. When dating, if you try to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement), you will be able to pick up on areas of incompatibility immediately. And if you find yourself fighting a difference in one of these characteristics, it's reasonable to come to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort to try to resolve it. That's when you break up and start in all over again with someone else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly Confused:
<strong>Will you marry me???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Nothing personal, you understand, but I'm afraid there's a fairly fundamental incompatibility... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

sj,
It seems that you would prefer to meet men in a group social setting to get to know them 'as friends' before advancing to a date. Where do people gather in your area? Community events, clubs or classes for a hobby or sport, how-to classes at a hardware store, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "When you are 20 you spend the entire date worrying about whether the other person likes you... When you are over 30 you worry about whether you like the other person." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know when guys 'reject' or don't call back after the first date - that they perceive you to be 'the wrong person' --- but where does that perception come from?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe you are meeting men via the internet, correct? What is your process of choosing them, or weeding them out? Do you have a list in your mind of what you are looking for, and what you don't want? The men you are dating probably have a list of their own. People (generally) want to find someone that they think could meet the majority of their needs easily, and build from there.