What's up with some of the people on the "divorced/divorcing" message boards who are posting that only marriages between never-divorced people are legitimate? Can they totally disregard Deut. 24:1-4 and still hold to that kind of garbage teaching? <P>I am not by an STRETCH of the imagination pushing for divorce except in EXTREME cases. I have long said that even if you have to sacrifice your own happiness, as long as there's no chronic infidelity or abuse, you should stay stay stay. But what is up with websites like rejoiceministries.com where they act like 2nd spouses are nothing more than affairs and the children are illigitimate?<P>Anyone heard of this rubbish, and if so do you have a comment? In all my reading of scripture, I see absolutely no foundation for this kind of belief.

You havent read enough thats why. There is much more to it then what most want to believe. I would be glad to share with any open minds.<BR>P.S. Thanks for the <A HREF="http://www.rejoiceministries.org" TARGET=_blank>www.rejoiceministries.org</A> suggestion. Yet another site dedicated to healing marriages.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Heart's Cry (edited July 03, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Heart's Cry (edited July 03, 2001).]

Make no mistake, I was PUBLICLY and SCRIPTURALLY REBUKING rejoice "ministries", NOT suggesting it. I put ministries in quotes because it's a misnomer. They only minister to the marriages that THEY approve of. Not the ones they don't. As far as their concerned, certain marriages that do not meet with their twisted version of scripture are not worth the dirt they walk on.<P>These people are a cult, plain and simple.

Cee Cee,<BR> Me again,<BR> Just for the record you don't make a very good case for becoming a Christian. You sound very angry, judgemental and self rightious. Not loving and kind and helpful and understanding and patient. If I wasn't a Christian already I wouldn't RUN to a church to be as "happy" in my faith as you my sister. "By our acts they will know us" (not a perfect quote but it will do) WWJD?<BR> If you are in a second marriage only YOU know if God blesses that marriage not US nor is it our place to make that desision for you. Only HE knows your heart NOT US!!<BR> ALL the people here are FIGHTING for their marriages. Isn't that what God wants from us? MOST are BETRAYED in that marriage and NONE believe that God would EVER EVER send another person as a blessing into a MARRIAGE. First second or 35th. AND, MOST FORGIVE and want to SAVE the marriage!!<BR> If you married an affair partner then I can understand your anger in this belief. No one here is saying that NO SECOND marriages are blessed by God. HOW COULD WE REALLY KNOW WHAT GOD BLESSES AND WHAT HE DOESN'T?? <BR> HOWEVER, if the world leaned a little more towards THAT belief instead of "Hey, marriage too much work"? HAVE AN AFFAIR"!!! and MARRY THE OP AND GOD WILL BLESS YOU"!!!! "Try it for a while and if THAT doesn't work then DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN until YOU ARE HAPPY"!! "Forget the kids, the parents, and MOST of all your spouse because it's NONE OF THEIR BUSNESS" "THIS IS YOUR LIFE AND YOU ONLY GET ONE" "LIVE IT UP AT ALL COSTS"!!!<BR> This CAN'T be what God wants....too many of his children are hurt. SMILE GOD LOVES YOU!! GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"

Cee Cee,<P>I understand your frustration. As with the last reply they seem to imply YOU must have been a part of an affair if you weren't the first spouse or your spouse was at fault and couldn't have been faithful. The other reply also doesn't show any COMPASSION ( caps for the other reply's benefit)as Jesus would. I can see why you can't stand that belief of their's. I will give him credit for admitting he can't know whether God blesses your marriage or not. I'm sure you do since you are standing up for the validity of your marriage. Don't let people like that push your buttons! Stay away from them and don't correspond with them. You already know the truth and you don't need anyone's aproval but God's and I think you know you have it.<P>Personally I think these people need to have an "open mind". Not all situations are the same and they don't know the circumstances. Some I'm sure made some mistakes and go back to the first partner because the grass wasn't as green as they thought and then try to sweep their 2nd marriage under the rug by justifying the divorce with scripture and then sounding like they are so obedient to God for doing so. Anyway, I wouldn't let what everyone else says interfere with your happiness with your spouse. Be right with God and give your all to your spouse and meet their needs and not someone you don't know that posts stuff that isn't true. Put all this energy into your spouse and they will be happy too.

This is not my first marriage, just thought I'd mention that before I reply so you won't think I"m preaching.<BR>I was raised catholic and I do believe that the catholic church does not recognize second marriages. Why I don't know but I do believe it is more so for the woman, she's not suppossed to remarry and anyone who does marry her is also committing adultery, obviously a sin in the eyes of the church. It makes no sense to me at all. But then again I don't think the catholic church likes to acknowledge a marriage that wasn't performed in the church or by the church or a church official. I don't know much about ohter religions though but maybe that is what they were basing their comments on, the rules of the church. I'm not much of a bible reader but I do believe that in there somewhere they talk of committing adultery with a divorced woman. I'll look it up though.<BR>My marriage is very sacred and blessed and very real.

Being raised Catholic, there are several reasons for that horrible Catholic "cult" only recognizes one marriage.<P>A marriage is a sacrament---and it's a one time blessing of the union of two individuals becoming "one flesh", in God's eyes. The Catholic church does not "recognize" divorce (it will recognize civil divorce for reasons of safety and the protection of an individuals rights). You may only be married "once" in a church (unless your spouse dies). Shedawg: if you are married in a civil service, the Catholic church <I>will</I> recognize the marriage, but you may have to go through some hoops---again, because they recognize this as a holy sacrament.<P>Cee Cee---you're calling much of the new Testament "rubbish", and clinging to Deut 24. If you're Jewish, then I can understand. If you're Christian, then READ THE BIBLE and come back here. If you want to scripturally debate this with an open mind, I'd be happy to discuss passages with you. I really have no background with rejoiceministeries---again, I would do this with the Catholic perspective in mind. These teachings have been passed down through the Bible, and through the Catholic church throughout the ages---they're not particularly easy to take in this age, but it doesn't mean that they are not the word of God. Part of the "bad" that came with the Reformation was this need to let God "personally" speak to you, so that you could decide what is right and wrong. Much of the Bible's teachings have been lost because of the erronious thought that 'God wants ME to be happy'. God wants you to lead a <B>good life</B>, and believe in him---and you will be happy in the next life.<P>My understanding, at least.

Matthew 19:3-9<P>“The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave His father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." <BR> <BR>“They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" <I>(K's comment: direct reference to Deut 24, among other OT law)</I> He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality <I>(porneia)</I>, and marries another commits adultery<I>(moiceia)</I>." <P>So, here is Jesus rebuking Deut 24, in a very clear way. And additionally, you can see the greek difference between "adultery" and "sexual immorality"---porneia generally refers to an incestious relationship. That is why the Catholic church does not recognize "adultery" as a legitmate reason for divorce (trust me, it's still a sin). So again, from a Catholic (and scriptural) perspective, a marriage is a sacred covenant that cannot be broken (if it was "truly" made---annulments are for marriages that "never truly existed")

And Shedawg---I had to get out both my bible AND catechism to look this stuff up...

k....this is not a first marriage for either myself or my husband so therefor not acknowldged by the church and considered to be committing adultery and since we were both raised catholic but have problems with the whole catholic ways, we were not married in the church for personal reasons also.

But while we're discussing the catholic church here's something I found interesting.<BR>Down in San Diego is a priest that has aids, he became hiv positive while a priest engaging in homosexual activities, he admits to this but they agreed to let him continue with his duties in leading his church.<BR>There is also a priest in Arizona who openly admits to having engaged in homosexual activities while a priest and they also continue to allow him to tend to his church.<BR>An Arch Diosese (sp?) admits to knowing about the large number of homosexual priests in the church. Stating that priesthood allows them to hide.<BR>So, in a sense the catholic church is admitting to allowing homosexual activities to take place with some priests although they have always admittedly been against homosexuality. Why were these priest allowed to continue as priest and not defrocked?<BR>But divorce isn't recognized and neither are second marriages?<BR>How is all that not hypocrytical?

shedawg:<P>You won't get me to try to defend everything that's been done in the Catholic church throughout the ages---there's been plenty of corruption and outright evil in the Church. <P>I'm unfamiliar with the homosexual priests that you mention---but the church is most definitely AGAINST the practice of homosexuality. It's sex outside of the sacrament of marriage, and that is a sin. To the best of my recollection, it's not the "man-man" or "woman-woman" thing; it's simply treated as sex outside of marriage. <P>The church is well aware that some priests will have "homosexual tendencies". Passages back to the gospel will back that up. The tendencies don't cause a problem, as long as the priests are not acting on them. If they do act on these tendencies, then they are committing sin. They can be forgiven of their sins (through the sacrament of reconciliation and appropriate penance)---and I would see no reason that they couldn't be reinstated or allowed to remain at a church (assuming that child molestation or other "grave" issues were not indicated). <P>If the priests continue to sin, then it is likely that they would be "defrocked". All sin can be forgiven (including second marriages and divorce)---but one should not sin over and over with the knowledge that they are doing wrong.<P>Shedawg: while I can understand your issue with the Catholic church, what does that have to do with the Biblical teachings of Jesus. Did you read the verses above? What to they say? If you find the Catholic church hypocritical (and with the issues that you presented, I could see how you would)---how does that change what the bible says? If a Catholic priest can sin---does that mean it's OK for me?<P>As Christians, the bible is God's word to us. Divinely inspired. It's what God wants us to know, and what he would like us to do. I realize that it's not a particularly easy message at times---you're probably aware of the sitatuion with my wife's affair. I very well could have imagined that I would have been divorced. Why should I have to live my life without a partner, because of her choices? How fair would that be?<P>But none of that changes the word.

If the church can be so willing to overlook, or accept, or forgive and forget, the acts of it's priests sins then it should be more than willing to accept and even bless all second, third or fourth marriages.

shedawg:<P>You're absolutely correct in that hypothesis, with the emphasis on <I>If the church</I>. However, the church is NOT willing to overlook, accept, or "forget" sin (of the priests). They are willing to forgive the sin, and have the penitant work on "sinning no more".<P>Shedawg, I don't claim to know God's mind. Far from it. I have no idea how you, I, or anyone else will fare on judgement day. I do try to live my life to the best of my abilities---and using my Christian faith as a guide. The only thing I'm "debating" on this thread is what the Word of God says---not what you should do. And as Cee Cee mentioned, she said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Anyone heard of this rubbish, and if so do you have a comment? In all my reading of scripture, I see absolutely no foundation for this kind of belief.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm just providing the scriptural foundation for this belief.

here's what I don't get...<P>...the Catholic Bible differs from the Protestant Bible...<P>Why?<P>And then, which is true? See why this gets so confusing?

I'm gonna try this again... maybe a different way...<P>I am in my second marriage. I am not Catholic. <P>That said, I do believe that the Bible is inspired by God, but I do not believe it is literal. Furthermore, there are so many versions (NIV, King James, etc.) and interpretations (Catholics have their own Bible that is very much the same but with a few differences from my Bible [see ? above], Mormons use the Bible, as do Jehovah's (sp?) Witnesses, and even a church like the Unitarian church uses the Bible with other texts, and my church, the Anglican/Episcopal church uses it as well, with another text [a prayer book, though only the Bible is sacred, not the prayer book])... so... which one do I believe? <P>I am a Christian (I believe Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again and is seated at the right hand of God... and because of that, I am saved... <P>...but...<P>How can a text that has been sooooo corrupted (even if the first interpretations were breathed into by God) be used to justify staying in a first marriage? And, conversely, how can it be used to justify a second marriage?<P>It's late, maybe I'm not making sense... but I want to know...<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 09, 2001).]

Sheryl,<P>I agree that the interpretations can be misleading, at times. The bible is "divinely inspired", so it is supposed to be the factual Word of God. There have been corruptions in the bible due to translations or changes to suit a point of view---a famous one is Martin Luther's addition of "alone" in "we are justified by faith <I>alone</I>." I have some real issues with the Protestant versions of the Bible---many have been "changed" in fundamental ways. I read a theology book (Not by Faith Alone) over vacation that gave me some education to the Reformation---and it's interesting how splintered the Protestant camps got, and how disillusioned Luther, Calvin, and others became even in their day with what they were trying to do. There was no doubt that the Catholic church was in desperate need of "reformation"---it's a shame that they went outside the Church to do it, as opposed to working in the framework (which certainly would have been harder).<P>Given that, I find it's best to look at a few different translations (Catholic and Protestant), as well as going back to the Greek, if necessary (always with the "aid" of someone who knows what they're doing, as I don't read the language).<P>Sheryl, if you read YOUR edition of the bible, what does the Gospel of Matthew (Jesus) say? Marriage is a covenant before God. The law of Moses was for the "hardness of man's hearts"---and Jesus specifically rebuked that, saying it was not God's intention for marriage. Then you have specific "instructions" on how you are committing adultery in a second marriage. I believe that is in every Bible that I've ever perused.<P>Now, there's always the issue of the "adultery" escape clause. Except that the greek word doesn't translate to adultery---it translates to an "immoral and illegal" marriage---more of the woman not being a virgin (Jewish law at the time) or the marriage being incestious. Jesus's message (especially in these parts of the gospel) was one of forgiveness, and of "doing the right thing". It's very unlikely that he would have preached on the holiness of marriage---that God intended it as a lifetime bond---and then said out of the side of his mouth "but it's all canceled if you cheat".<P>By the way, you thanked Dogbert on a thread in EN. I owe you all a debt of gratitude as well---I've gotten out my bibles, my Catholic Catechism, and even started reading theology (Not By Faith Alone was excellent). It's been a very valuable education for me, too.

Mornin' K,<P>Thank you for answering. <P>Okay, first things first: I Cor. 14:33 says (KJ version) - <I>For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.</I><P>Right away, I get upset, because I am CONFUSED. So, my confusion is "not of God" because He is not the author of it. It is in my own head, right? <P>So, I begin again, with an open mind and heart, and here's what I think, and you tell me if I'm way off base:<P>My second marriage began as a sin, as in: If I'm to believe you about the "out clause" of adultery not being valid, then leaving my first marriage was a sin. Further, since I met my current H before our divorces were final, that too was a sin. Compound the fact that we actually married, which according to your research, is a sin. <P>I do not take this lightly. For example, in Matthew it says: <I>...every idle word that men shall speak...they shall give an account thereof in the day of judgement..."</I> Understanibly, I don't want to be standing in front of God saying I justified my actions. I seriously wish to know "the truth"...<P>So, in saying that... back to the sin aspect... if all that I have done, in regard to my second marriage, is a sin, is it not forgivable by God? Isn't Jesus all about grace, and forgiveness? <P>Of course, the very famous verse, that everyone seems to know, could apply here: <I>For all have sinned...</I> (Romans 3:23)... and even Paul, who was such a good man, said, "<I> For that which I do I allow not, for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that I do.</I> (Romans 7:15).<P>So, if all have sinned, and that Bible, no matter which one, seems to support that idea... then God has provided, through his Grace, a "cure" for the sin. Jesus is the cure, for Christians. He died on the cross for my sins.<P>So... I guess the question might be: is my sin so bad, so horrific, so beyond forgiveness, that I dare not trust God to forgive it?<P>Or maybe the question is: Is this sin? <P>So, what to do? And we come back to the original premise of this thread. Do I, and others like me (I suspect there may be a few) go back to the first marriage? If nothing matters except adhering to the "law" (the Bible, although as we both know, it is filled with grace as well) then I am suppose to believe that despite David's continued cheating and pounding down of my spirit, (and body, for that matter), I was suppose to remain married to him for this lifetime. Nothing else matters? <P>When I took the vow with David, I believed it was "until death do us part"... and it seemed, if you'll forgive the drama, that my life was quickly winding down ~~ a nervous breakdown was in the offing, at the least. David had other ideas. <P>I did make a mistake getting involved too soon... I've freely admitted that all over the place. But now, I am married to a man who I made this same vow to: "until death do us part"... and I meant it, as I did the first time. I take vows very seriously. <P>This is all so confusing, and as I said in the beginning, God is not the author of it. Who is then? That's what is upsetting.

Sheryl:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Or maybe the question is: Is this sin? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that you answered the question for yourself... your second marriage was created in a state of sinfulness. I believe that the bible is pretty clear on this particular issue.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... I guess the question might be: is my sin so bad, so horrific, so beyond forgiveness, that I dare not trust God to forgive it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No sin is beyond forgiveness from God. <P>The question (and I struggle with this too), is how do you get beyond sin. Protestant dogma varies---if you "believe" in Christ, you are "saved" in many denominations. Catholicism is different: Christ's death is an "inheritance" of sorts, but by sinning, you can certainly lose your inheritance. You can also gain it back by confession of your sins (through the church), and repenting. Works are integral to salvation for a Catholic---not because we believe that we are "good enough" to be judged by God as worthy (no one is), but because it is evidence of leading a faith-based life in Christ.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Isn't Jesus all about grace, and forgiveness? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is about grace and forgiveness. But he's not ALL about grace and forgiveness. He wants his flock to follow his word, as faithfully as possible. To acknowledge when we do not, and to ask for the forgiveness.<P>Sheryl---I honestly can't advise you on what to do. You know that I didn't "approve" of your marriage---for several reasons. But I'm also aware that you're not asking for my approval. We have members of our Catholic church who are divorced/remarried and receiving sacraments---but I don't know the detailed situations of these people (annulments, etc). And they're good people---neighbors and friends. I don't look down on them---and I don't look down at you. <P>I would encourage you to continue to pray and repent for any sins you haven't done penance for. As far as what you should "do" concerning this marriage---that is up to you. I'm not in your situation, and I can't imagine myself there---so I'm completely useless to you as an advisor. My best advice would be to follow the most important commandment---Love God with all your heart. And follow #2: Love your fellow man as well. And I think you do an pretty darn good job with those two.<P>God bless you, Sheryl<BR>

Yes, I must accept it was "created" in sinfulness.<P>You're right that I am not looking for your advice, per se. I am looking for your expertise, however.<P>What I am going to do... yes, I know that too... I'm going to put my everything into this marriage. <P>And I am going to treat David with respect and as much love as I can, given the circumstances. In a weird way, we get along better than we ever have. I guess that's always been one of my problems (for lack of a better word) with your writings... I am not numb to David... I never was. I do care. <P>Yes, I work to give God my attention, and love, and I have asked for His forgiveness of my sins... <P>...and have repented... and BEGGED God to forgive my sins. <P>On the plus side, I am no longer the poor wife, or the cheating wife, I once was. I am, instead, a better person who has made some mistakes, and will endeavor to be the best woman, the best Christian, the best wife and mother, I can be.<P>Thank you for taking the time to talk with me about this. I expected you to "pull no punches" ... I needed the honesty, and knew you'd give it to me.<P>God Bless you too -- and -- I read that your wife is recovering fairly well from her strokes... I am so sorry for all the pain you've endured. You're a good man, K.