Well, this past weekend was a doozy. I had kind of sort of started dating a girl and things were going pretty well. However, after about the 3rd date, she kind of closed up and shut down. Kind of confused me. After the 8th date or so I asked her what was going on. She said she didn't want our relationship to go any further unless I could promise her I wouldn't break her heart, i.e. break up with her. She noted that her last 3 year long boyfriend had broken her heart when he left... and that she didn't want to risk it again. Then she commented that it probably wasn't very fair to hold me accountable for things her last boyfriend had done. I noted that she probably wouldn't want me to hold her accountable for things my x-wife had done.

Isn't it the perorgative of divorcees to be "strange" in relationships? Geesh. I've actually found that it's not that big of an issue for me. Anyways, to make a long story short - I had to tell her that there was no way I could guarantee such a thing and that we should stop seeing each other. I had been really sick for several days at this point and when she pressed for the WHY... (isn't it obvious?)... I told her that I really needed a girlfriend that called or dropped by even when I wasn't feeling well.

Compared to my divorce, it was way easy. LOL. Maybe I should have sent her a 35 page legal document? <smirks>

On top of everything, after about 8 weeks of not hearing a blip from my x, she starts calling me. 7x over this past weekend and then a mushy "I miss you" letter that in the end boils down to... my latest lover-flavor broke up with me. Am I supposed to feel sympathy for her and call her back? "Oh here, tell me all about it. He wasn't good enough for you... blah blah blah..."

She said in more than several of her messages that we had promised each other we would be friends. I'm curious how many others of you did that in your divorces...? I'll be honest... I miss my wife - the one I married. Today is a rainy day, I feel kind of miserable and melodramatic, I'd love nothing more than to curl up with her in my arms be softly romantic and have whispered conversations about everyday kinds of stuff... and fall asleep. In my mind, I know that I could never do that with the woman I divorced. But, she still pulls on my heartstrings.

She only contacts me when:
1. She wants something.
2. She's done something morally horrible and wants to provoke a fight with me to make her feel better about whatever it is she has done.
3. Her latest flavor dumped her.

Talk about defining a "fair weather friend"... but then... I don't know what being "friends" after a divorce means. I kind of assumed it meant "never talking to each other again" so that you never have to recriminate about the past. Have any of you actually managed to maintain a "friendship" with your x? I don't see how it can be done... if a platonic girlfriend came to me upset cuz her boyfriend had dumped her, I'd be sympathetic. With my x, it's either antipathy or worse, vindictive glee - Haha, you got dumped!!!

I don't know how much advice I can give here, since I'm a bit behind you in the whole process. My WH walked out mid-January, wanted to come home two days later, to which I said no, but said we could work on things. We went to counseling for about 3 months, until I found out he was still living with her, and lying both to me and to our counselor about it. At that point, I lost it, and said I was done, and am proceeding with the divorce now.

But even after everything that has happened, he still thought we could be buddies. He called and left a message on the answering machine telling me that he HAD to move out again (i.e., she was kicking him out, which has happened at least 3 or 4 times in the past couple of months,) and that he would be at his parents if I wanted him to explain what was going on. Then he said he really still loves them both (she has a daughter) and isn't giving up on them, even if it doesn't look very good right now. And repeated again that I could call him at his parents if I wanted to talk about it.

I was upset... I mean REALLY upset... after that one for about a week. And I wasn't even sure why at first. After all, I had decided that I was done, that I wanted a divorce, so why should I be upset to hear him talking about loving someone else.

Then I finally realized that it wasn't that I wanted to change my mind, or thought I was making the wrong decision. It was the loss of the person he used to be to me. That someone who was my best friend, with whom I wanted to share everything, could now care so little as to leave me a message like that and not realize (or not care) how much it would hurt me was devastating to me. And that he could think I would want to hear about it and console him? All I could think is what planet did this alien who replaced my husband come from?

And I finally realized - maybe some people can be friends with their exs, and that's great for them. Especially if kids are involved. But we have no kids, and I couldn't take the kind of upset he was giving me anymore. So I made it clear to him that we weren't buddies, I quit calling him, and I started limiting how much I would respond back to him when he contacted me. And it did a world of good for me. I don't feel like I am obsessing about it all anymore. I still think about what has happened, but not to the (almost) exclusion of everything else like I had been. And I don't get upset when I hear from him or about him.

Only you know if you can handle being a friend or not. And some people might tell you being there as a friend could open the door for her to come back to you. It might. But only you can decide if you want that, and if you can handle being friends knowing that she may not come back - instead, you may get to hear all about the next "flavor" in her life.

To me, being friends with someone after the divorce is no different than being friends with someone else. The question is - can you handle it, or will being only friends with someone who used to be someone that was so much more to you be too painful for you?

with no kids, i would never, ever talk with the person again, unless i absolutely had to. . in other words, when the kids are legally emancipated, then i will never, ever speak to X again, unless there is something legal that i must. .

just hang up the phone. . . she will get the message

well, the way i see it, being friends after divorce can only happen one of 3 ways.

1. There are kids involved and you have to keep up appearances.

2. One of the 2 is gay.

3. It is a mutual decision.

If your divorce meets none of these criteria, why try and be friends?

I sent her back a short note that said, "You're right. I did promise we'd remain friends. Tell me what that means to you and I'll see if that works for me."

I'm curious as to what if whatever she'll reply. I get a feeling that the fog might be lifting but it's really hard to tell from 2,300 miles away. I'm so glad she's not nearby. I don't know how you all do it when your x is even within long driving distance.

This is a very interesting topic, as xW and I just sold the house and have no real reason to stay friends. There are no kids, and only a few mutual friends.

I don't really know what I want to do on this at this point. I'm not going to be "buddies" with one who has betrayed me so deeply. At the same time, it is hard to just completely shut someone out who has meant a lot in the past.

Whenever we have spoken since the divorce, it seems as if she is trying to remain friends or something like that. I feel that she is much more interested in conversing than I am.

Right now, I think some real time apart is the best thing. I don't approve of what she is doing, but it is her life to live. She has every right to do what she wants, however, that doesn't mean that I have to be her friend. If she ever makes some changes, I'll consider a real friendship, but until then, it's something I cannot bring myself to doing.

So, I'll just go dark. It's not stressful, and maybe someday this will change. If and when it does, contact can always be restarted.

hoping4best,

it appears that we are all in the same boat. from my readings, its the women that say they want to remain friends when they leave. when it is the man that leaves, he just expects the wife will be waiting for him to return and never uses the phrase "lets still be friends".

my wife was emotionally distracted for the duration of our marriage (3 years) with a guy that was out of her life (5 years and they were nothing but friends) long before we got together until 3 days before she said she wanted a divorce.

she took another shot at the guy (3rd time) and didnt get the guy. she still wants the divorce (which i have the papers to sign on my desk). but she still wants to remain friends. why? even though she says she will never want to be with me again, she wants to be friends (which i have read others say on this website). and after reading the forums and this website, there is a common theme that i am reading, the person that leaves, tries to come back. they are trying to keep that door open by trying to be friends.

why would we want to open up again to someone that detrayed us so deeply? i love my wife....but is that really enough to overlook the hurt and pain? no contact is working from my point of view. it realize everyday that my life could better off without her. but i still have a feeling that because this process for me has taken less than 60 days total, she will eventually realize she ended it too quickly without tring to reconcile or go to couseling.

but will/should i be there......

You know the old saying "With friends like that, who needs enemies?" That would fit my situation. My ex husband repeatedly cheated and repeatedly lied. I certainly wouldn't chose to be friends with a person like that, so it is unfortunate I married him!! I do not see us ever being friends. We have three small children, so we are civil. We are able to discuss them without making it personal, and using a polite tone of voice. That is for the benefit of the children, and also because for me, the opposite of love is indifference, and that is where I am finally at. If we had no children, I couldn't think of one reason why I would want any contact with him. I've been able to move on and forgive him, but that doesn't mean I want him in my life any more than as little as possible. I think people who want to remain friends either feel guilty for their behavior or are hoping to rekindle what they once had.
Krista

Being friends? This is a tough one. Personally, I don't think it will happen. Because of our child, I will remain "friendly" with my STBX, but that's it. If a friend lied to me, decieved me and betrayed me and never showed on ounce of regret or remorse or never took one bit of accountability, I would not be their friend again. I don't need friends like that. Being that it was my W that did this only magnifies it.

I don't hate my W or wish her any ill will, but I don't care about her either. I'm indifferent towards her. My only concern about her happiness or unhappiness is how it affects my daughter. My W is miserable, she's told me as much. I hope someday she sorts through whatever made her so unhappy and lead to her A so she can learn something from it and learn what she needs to be happy. I think that's important for my daughter's sake.

I wish I was the kind of person who could just forgive and forget, but I can't. I was betrayed in the worst way by the person I trusted the most. She gave up on me, gave up on our marriage and gave up on our family. I'll get over that in time as long as it doesn't affect my daughter's long term happiness.

I've got alot of friends and I could always use one more, but I don't need her to be my friend and I certainly don't need to be hers.

sad dad

How timely this is for me! My ex wants to be friends. When he told people we were splitting up, he said it was because we determined we'd make better friends than husband and wife. (we did NOT decide this, so I was baffled when I learned this was the official story.)

There is no OW. He is the one who wanted to D, he was the plaintiff. He did not try to take anything from me in the settlement (nor did I try to take anything from him). He is helpful, wants to do things around the house. If I had allowed it, he would still be living here with me. He says he misses me, but is glad we're divorced.

I suspect at some point, he will come out of the fog and be horrified at what he has done- but it will be too late. So I want to be his friend-- I shared 23 years of my life with him, I miss him, care deeply for him. I will never reconcile, but I do care. But I'm having a real hard time with being friends. He seems oblivious to how deeply he has hurt me, he's just casual, nonchalant about things. I am hurt, frustrated, lonely, angry. I am mostly coping well, but when I'm down, it's bad.

I am wondering if I need more time without him, before I can build a new relationship with him, as a friend.

Friends????

I have NEVER had a friend treat me like he has....I would never have a friend like that. Why would you? I don't even want to discuss anything with him anymore, including the kids. He misconstrues everything that is said or done to suit his needs. It is really sad. This is the man that I would have stood up for and did for 25 years. A friend...no way--ever!!!!

I know for me, even after he first walked out on me, I had problems with all this. He wanted to be friendly, and as long as he was being friendly, I had trouble not acting the same way. It wasn't until a few months later that I started seeing the friendliness was only him trying to keep me in a good mood so I would continue believing his lies and to try and stay in my good graces.

Once I finally realized that how nice he was being over those months directly correlated with how deceptive he was being, I finally was able to just tune out his being friendly, and work on keeping some emotional distance. Even now, I usually have a pretty good idea of how his life is going without anyone ever telling me. If he is avoiding talking to me directly, trying to make sure that he only leaves messages on my answering machine or voice mail, if he is somewhat rude and short with me, whether it is just messages or talking to me directly, I know things are well with him and OW, and he is probably living wih her again. When he starts wanting to talk to me directly, and he is nice and friendly and starts sounding almost apologetic, I know that things aren't going well with them, and in all likelihood, she has kicked him out - again. His getting kicked out has happened at least 4 or 5 times in the past 2 months or so, and that's just the times I know about.

I started having to do what a lot of other people here have said. I started asking myself "if he wasn't the man I have been married to for 10 years, and I didn't have all these memories of how he used to be over the first half of our marriage, would I be friends with him?" And the answer is most emphatically "NO!!!!!" When he starts being friendly and acting hurt that I don't want to be buddies, I make myself remember how many times he has used being friendly with me to get me to believe his lies, and then I start looking for what his angle is - what he's trying to get out of me or manipulate me into doing. And there always seems to be an angle. The trick is making myself remember that.

Well, I got the response back...

She needs someone to support her in a way that no one else can right now... I guess. With me, she has to be completely candid because, even if she lies, she knows that I know she's lying. It's a game she plays... but I'm a known entity.

With friends like that who needs enemies indeed... that's the biggest thing that goes through my mind too. But, it's hard to walk entirely away from someone you once knew so intimately. And the familiarity is certainly there.

It's going to be a weird "friendship" that's for sure. But unlike any other guy in her life, I'm someone she knows cares for her... but would rather die on salty razor blades than become romantically involved with her. I guess that makes me safe? I don't really see me getting anything out of it... but then I've had friends like that too.

For me, what it boils down to is this:
- I want her to come out of the fog.
- I want her to stop self-destructing.
- I want to see her back on her own feet.

I don't feel responsible for this anymore, but I do feel like it's a worthwhile goal. The time from me to "help" is so marginal but I would feel tremendous satisfaction from seeing her get her act together.

I can understand that, Lyxa. It may not seem like it from some of my posts, but that's what I want for my WH too - well, most of the time, anyway. I'm still working on me, and on forgiving him. The way I expressed it to the support group I go to at my church is that "I want him to get himself straightened out, and get right with God. It just can't be with me anymore."

The thing is, I was trying to be supportive and hope it would help him get straightened out, and I found two things happened in the process.

1. It was hurting me a lot, all over again, everytime I got to hear how much of a mess he's made, and how bad he feels, only to find out that she had kicked him out, and that's why he was acting that way. He felt sorry for himself. And as soon as she let him come back, he would start being a real jerk again. It felt almost like going through DDay all over again every time.

2. I realized that trying to help him in ANYTHING was just repeating at least some of what led to all of this in the first place. I took care of everything, paid the bills, let him play with the money he makes, and, in general, whenever anything went wrong, I was the one who "fixed" it. And he took all that for granted, and wanted to be able to go out and play, and still have me at home to "fix" things for him. And I find that's true now too. He calls and tries to be nice and friendly when he wants something or wants me to do something, and gets rather... petulant, I guess would be the word, when I can't or won't.

To me, not only is this not much of a friend, but from what I can see, me being helpful or a friend to him will just prolong his ability to live with the choices he has made. I don't know if he'll ever come out of this, but I've come to realize that he's probably the kind of person that will really, really have to hit bottom before he'll change.

So if you think being a friend to her will help her stop the course she's on, and if you can handle it, great. But I would really take great care that you don't damage your own recovery in the process. And be aware that sometimes, a person knowing that he/she has that stable person to fall back on for support helps him/her continue the self-destructive behavior for longer.

So, there seems to be a general consensus that you can't be friends... unless there's some overwhelming need for ongoing contact - like joint custody of children.

In my situation I'm inclined to agree. The more I know about my x's situation, the harder it is for me to get back to where I was even 10 days ago where I was actually having days where I didn't think about her at all.

I was also talking with a platonic friend who is a girl about this and she said that in a dating/romantic relationship, if she knew the guy was still in contact with his x-(spouse or b/g/friend) she'd take it as a sign that they haven't moved on yet. But, then I've also talked to people that are oddly reassured by the knowledge that you still "get along" or are "friends" with your x. I suppose it's a question of context?

I wouldn't want to be friends with my ex.
I have no respect for her and I'm not gonna be "friends" with someone like that.
If she were around I could get along, but I wouldn't be "friends" with her in any sense of the word.

Rather than context, maybe it's more a question of balance.

I'd probably be somewhat wary of someone who hated his ex so much he couldn't say a civil word to or about her. I would figure there were still issues there that hadn't been resolved.

But if he were still calling his ex on a regular basis, going and doing things with her now and again, even just "as friends" (unless it were activities they were both attending for the kids), or even if she were the one initiating regular contact, but he went along with it, I would start having questions about how "over" the relationship really is, divorced or not.

I think it is possible for someone to be friends with an x...It really depends on how the relationship is. Someone stated earlier that there was a question of balance. I would agree. One cannot be constantly talking to or seeing an x without arousing some suspicion from a dating partner.

I think with marriages, it is a bit different than single dating, because it involves a shattered vow. Single people haven't made a vow to stay together, so a breakup is, IMHO, substantially easier to manage.

Let's define "Friend" as taken from Websters.

1. A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts.
2. A person whom one knows; an acquaintance.
3. A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade.
4. One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement: friends of the clean air movement.

I find myself in an interesting situation. While I'm not D yet, it seems that we are going from the stage of "initial shock and dealing with things" to the "friendship" phase. Where there is no emotional connection or feeling of Love either way, it is truly odd to go from total Love to just friends.

I do agree I think I have heard of more women who want to remain friends in any kind of a break up then men.

If it's a guy or gal, I think it's a safety net to stay friends and to serve as someone to come looking for support from. If you have no intent on ever furthering things I wouldn't see a point to just being friends.

For me if I get to the big D point, I'm not sure how much of friends I would want us to be. I might find it too painful or pointless.

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Eduard ]</small>

Well, if you go by Websters, I guess we aren't really friends. I'm civil to her, but there really is no desire for me to continue to "keep in touch." I don't know if she has any desire to be friends.