I have written under another topic but no one responded. I decided to start another topic hoping someone would give insight. I have cut and pasted the same information I was hoping to get feedback from.
here it is:

I thought I was braking through the madness, and long behold I have found that perhaps I have only scraped the surface. My emotions have been clearly in the dumps when it was revealed that my W expressed that she did not want me to be alarmed about her life becasue It does not involve me, and if she has outside relationships it does not have anything to do with me.

In addition, I have found out that it appears that a male counterpart has captured her heart and drawed her attention away. I thought we were heading in the right direction, but she claims that I have nothing appealing to her, that we are two diffrent people. She states that I need medical help becasue I need to get over her becasue she has gotten over me.

She has said that there is no way she can work with someone who is demanding and controlling.
This is mainly due becasue I have tried to state my position on things and her position is that is control.
I have migrated to my dauther's room, my wife has put a lock on her room to keep me out. She has a new group of freinds that she feels I would not condone of, she is into alot of new age philosphy, and she will not let anything get in the way of her life including her children.
She feels if the kids don't have any food I should do something, if they have needs at school I should take care of it, becasue her career is more important.
The bottomline is that even to sense her around me makes me nervous and unsettled. I want so bad for us to change this setting, I know I shoud know seperation must be done so I can recieve healing for myself, but I am so scared of losing my W, when I really lost her most likely a long time ago. I keep thinking that me in the house makes this so hard, especailly when she stands flatfooted on going out with opposite sex. MY girls need me around, but I don't like being around in the atmosphere. Here's the question, should I go? I have been flip-flopping over and over. If I leave this time I can't come back and my working with my children will change.
They have lost respect for me becasue of how they think I let mom have her way.
Should I get a counseling? I have seen a number of counselors and they think I need to give her the space she requests and get healing becasue of what I find that brings me fulfillment. I have tried to move in that direction but it's so hard I wish there was a radical way to get my emotions stable. She hates talking to me, she does'nt want me to talk about us. I have been lonely for almost a year, and she clearly does not care. I understand becasue she has nothing for me, in my position I think knowing she is open to outside relationships while we are still married, I think a divorce is needed immediately. I told her this and told her it based on my convictions. She seemed really agitated over that, and now I when this happens we are offically over. I can pursue what I need the right way, and have now power to think anything about us becasue there is no us. Let's here what you guys have to say about all this, it is so hard it's harder then death itself.

Well, this is a really tough one and I have little input in which to help you. However, I think that rather than leaving, you should look at asking her to leave. It appears that she is the one who has left the relationship and the family. She is the one who has decided that what she has is not what she wants. Therefor, in my opinion, she should leave the situation. File for custody of your children and then tell her you love her, but if she doesn't love you and your family, that she needs to leave the home. Tell her you want to have a family and that family includes a faithful and loving wife. If she has chosen not to be that person then she needs to remove herself from the home.

I am NOT saying dump your wife. I am saying that for you to be leaving under the circumstances you have explained makes you the scapegoat. I know that you want to keep your family together. I did as well. I heard the same things. These men have nothing to do with you.??? Then exactly what does? Your wife might be lost for a while, but she needs to figure out what she wants. But she CANNOT have the security of your family's home while choosing to be outside the family. At least that is my opinion.

Stand up for what is right. This is not right in any form or fashion. If she refuses to be a part of the family, ask her to leave it within a week. File for custody of the children and the house first. If she wants a divorce you will have to protect your children and yourself. You don't have to file for divorce, just a separation agreement. You are obviously unhappy as is she. She is in no place that she sounds willing to work. I would say Plan A. But in my opinion, Plan A only works when there is some sort of respect between the people. She obviously has no respect for the marriage if she is openly willing to live in your family home and yet be with other men.

Plan A after she has left. Keep your children safe and well cared for. You need to get somewhere in order to be their dad not their child. I know how easy it would be to cry on my boy's shoulder sometimes. Sometimes I want to just open up to him and tell him everything because I want him to understand why his parents are divorced. However, I am his father, he is not mine. It is MY responsibility to act as a loving caring father would. I have to show him that being strong even while being vulverable and caring is an important character trait.

Right now, you not only have the opportunity but also the responsibility to take care of yourself and your children. They will see how you deal with this and take cues and learn from it. Living in your daughter's room sounds like you MIGHT be hiding and using her for support... I don't know... rather than taking the fatherly route. Remember, this is happening to them as well.

I don't know... this is definitely off the cuff and you really must think about what is going on in all reality. NOT just your perception of reality. Because what happens now will affect your entire life. If you leave, you might loose the ability to really influence your children, which in my opinion is the really TRUE LOSS. Think about where your wife is... and think about what your children really need in their lives at the moment... but also for the rest of their lives as well. Is she able, capable, or willing to give that to them? IF not, then in my opinion, she definitely should not have the responsibility.

Take heart and really think about it before you leave. Although I was the one who left, after being essentially kicked out (You or me). I knew that in my situation, I would be able to better provide for my children in a new living situation than she would. And since I knew that my ex only wanted the money from custody (she filed for full then said you can take them whenever you want), she would never allow me to have full custody without a fight. And I categorically refuse to not be a primary and major influence in my boys. I moved out with half custody. I have done a great job in reestablishing a home and a life for them. And things are only getting better.

Make sure you have thought about all the ramifications before you do anything. I hope she can change and find herself within your marriage and family. But I doubt she will be able to living in your home. Perhaps she just needs to be out on her own for a while... put it to her like that...

Hi Psylocke,

Sorry to hear things w/ marriage are not improving. Maybe it would be best as others
are telling you. To let her go, plan B, N/C
unless conversations are concerning children.

Will you have to leave the home?
Psylocke, this is what she is choosing in all her fog (denial). And having relationships with OM and saying it is non of your business and thinking it is something you should just acceptance is uncalled for!!! What about a
plan B letter???

Sent with Love, Ladysheep

Formerly Confused,

For being confused, I think that is excellent advice to psylocke. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sent with Love, Ladysheep

I'm an "old" member of MB and don't stop by very often...but your post caught my eye...

I was skimming through your other thread, trying to get familiarized with your dilemma...I'm really sorry for this painful situation...but God is working in it...listen for HIM!

Are there supports for pastors through your denomination or through other Christian organizations? I did a search on the web once and found such resources... (sorry I didn't keep that info. but you could find it). A pastor in this situation has "special needs" that other couples may not face. I've heard many times that being a pastor's wife is one of the loneliest of positions. It can help for a pastor & his wife to have another pastor/wife to share with.

Have you given serious thought to her accusation that you have "control issues"? To whatever degree this is true, it is a huge thing, that makes authentic intimacy in marital relationship impossible!!... If this is you, please begin a study of this, get Christian professional therapy & start digging to the core of your being and begin pulling up that root. It will be painful but ultimately rewarding!! Control is spiritual/emotional woundedness, rooted in a bad form of "shame"....the good news, is that Jesus took shame to the cross (along with sin!), can set you free, and Grace is the healer. Real Christianity & spirituality is who we are on the inside and in our relationships. Healthy growing love can't exist in a control environment. Control is opposite of love. Shame is bondage. Are you "shame-based"??

Do you have knowledge of what I'm talking about???
There are resources to help that I can recommend....

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Renae ]</small>

What to do when you don't know what to do?

Well I was always told when you don't know what to do, do nothing, until you know what to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sent with Love, Ladysheep

Hey EWE... heh heh heh... (ladysheep)...

I am FORMERLY confused... I was "Confused and can't believe" before I found out about affair number 4 (at least that I know of... I quite thinking after that, but am suspicious of others from before.)

Now I see clearly... or at least much more so than before. I still don't understand, and probably never will. However, my confusion is much less... hence the name change.

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Dear Psyloche,
So sorry to hear the pain you're in! I believe it is up to your kids and you now to be a family. If your wife chooses to be a part of it, then she can do so, otherwise I would ask her to go and make her choice. I know you love her, but you do not need the turmoil in your life and the lives of your children. I would stay in the house, since she is the one wanting her own way.
You are in my prayers. continue to plan A, let her see what a wonderful guy you are. I can attest to the fact that lovebusting does NO good for anyone...however, it is hard to keep from doing so. Show her your best side...pray that God can help you do this. Read all you can on the subject, and get some support at church. That really helped me.
God bless you, let us know how you are doing, please.
KK

Eric's Recipe for Making It Through:
- Revisit all the things you did before you were married but stopped... for example, I rented and watched all of the vampire movies that came out in the past 7 years. Wow!
- Change your hairstyle often.
- Get a punching bag and punch it and kick it and scream if you feel like it. Not only does this get you in shape, but it releases a lot of energy that you would otherwise use obsessing and ruminating. After the dv, you'll get a boost from your toned physique.
- Turn off the TV. Instead of vegging, re-read some old books and stories from your youth. Find a sleeping pill that works for you and when you can't stand the mix of frustration and fatigue, GO TO SLEEP.
- Pick up a new hobby. It has to be active, engaging, and loud. Otherwise, you're going to obsess and ruminate right?

The idea is to buy and give yourself time to heal. Plus, all this stuff gives you and interesting edge for dealing with your spouse, your family, and others.

Sends good vibes your way.

Hi Formerlyconfused,

I know you're not confused <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , your really together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
You have come a long way baby!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Proud of you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sent with Love, Ladysheep

This is really to respond to Renae:
Are there supports for pastors through your denomination or through other Christian organizations? I did a search on the web once and found such resources... (sorry I didn't keep that info. but you could find it). A pastor in this situation has "special needs" that other couples may not face. I've heard many times that being a pastor's wife is one of the loneliest of positions. It can help for a pastor & his wife to have another pastor/wife to share with.

I have not found any organizations that are specific to my needs, and at this time as a couple my wife is compeletly out of the picture. She has said for years how she was dealing as a Pastor's wife, and I was not able to meet her needs. If it would not be asking to much if you could search and determine where that information may be would be a blessing. I have a Pastor that I have confined in, but I am only going so far by myself.

Have you given serious thought to her accusation that you have "control issues"? To whatever degree this is true, it is a huge thing, that makes authentic intimacy in marital relationship impossible!!... If this is you, please begin a study of this, get Christian professional therapy & start digging to the core of your being and begin pulling up that root. It will be painful but ultimately rewarding!! Control is spiritual/emotional woundedness, rooted in a bad form of "shame"....the good news, is that Jesus took shame to the cross (along with sin!), can set you free, and Grace is the healer. Real Christianity & spirituality is who we are on the inside and in our relationships. Healthy growing love can't exist in a control environment. Control is opposite of love. Shame is bondage. Are you "shame-based"??

I have given knowledge to all you have shared, and to be honest, I do have some control issues. They really surfaced with the Affair. I thought it was justifiable for me to do the things I did becasue of what she was doing. But when I look at the history I realize that many things were done where she felt left out, and not a part of it. She felt that everything must go through me and she was not a part of my life. I have felt shame becasue of what is presently at work in my life, she has no feelings for me, she has gone compeletly numb. I am trying to identify my own personal issues that appears I have had for years, she feels it does'nt make a difference becasue deep down we were clicking as a couple. We are on two different wave lenghts.
I am seeing a counselor on Control and demand and power. She has told me if she saw something attractive she would move towards me, but all she sees is what has caused her to look away from me. I am digging to the core who I am, and the kind of man I am despite what I think about myself but what is truth from those around me.

I am serious about searching for insight that pertains to me, including establishing myself financially, organizationally, and goal setting for myself and my family.

Hi Psylocke,

I'm sorry, but I didn't read your other post, so I'm not sure I have all the "details" but one of my main thoughts when reading what you wrote, was when you said that you think "divorce is needed immediately."

I would encourage you not to seek a divorce, but perhaps a separation. I do not know that a separation is what you should do, but it might be needed. It is something you need to pray about and ask the Lord if that would be his will. I do not want to wrongly advise you. I do want to encourage you though not to divorce. I think God will honor and bless you for remaining committed to your marriage vows and to your wife despite her behavior right now.

I think you can express your love to your wife, but in a "letting go" sort of way. In other words, convey something like this to her: "You are my wife. I made a commitment and vow to love you forever... better or WORSE, sickness and health... 'til DEATH do us part. I intend on keeping those vows, but I do not want to force you to stay if you do not want to stay. I did not force you to marry me and I cannot force you to stay married to me. God is helping me to face myself and my sins and with his help, I will grow and be less controlling and one way I can do that, is by letting you go. I love you, I want our marriage to last, I want you to be happy, and I also want you to be free. I cannot keep you or make you stay against your will. I cannot control you and I am realizing that. While I love you and will remain faithful to you, you are telling me that you do not love me and do not intend on being faithful to me; so I think it is best if I leave (or she leaves) for awhile so that you can sort things out in your life and I can sort things out in mine. I think it would be best for us to be apart right now until you decide what you want. I plan on using any time apart to work on myself and to grow and change things I need to change."

Something along those lines where you are conveying to her that you love her faithfully but yet are "letting go" as well... not divorcing, but not trying to control or make her do what you want (to love you in return). Also, you are showing her that you acknowledge your responsibility in your marriage and that is important, because truly, you cannot change her. Only God can, but you can pray for her and love her. But you can only change yourself. So you can acknowledge that you understand that and also, you want to say it in a way that she does not feel manipulated or like you are trying to make her feel guilty, controlled, etc. I think she will be feeling these things to extremes simply because of the sin in her life right now, not necessarily because they are true.

Often when someone is "set free" in that way, they realize they don't really want it. It could be also that you are holding on so tightly right now, that she is spending all her energy trying to "get away" and once you "let go", then she will not spend that energy in that way and she will be able to face other thoughts... and the Lord. If she stops fighting you to let go, then she can stop directing her energy to that. If you are not present, then she will be faced with more quietness and solitude and that can be good because then the Lord can speak to her and use that to draw her to Him.

You can trust God to help you through this and to take care of things. It is scary to "let go" but you are not really "letting go". I mean, you are physically letting go in that you are saying, I can do nothing and I love you to much too control you, and I trust God to help you and I through this, and I trust Him enough to be able to let go in this way.

I am assuming you are not divorced though? You are living at home from what it sounds?

I think it might benefit your wife esp. if you move out for awhile, but not divorce... or if you make arrangements for her to move elsewhere (although that might cause bitterness making her feel "kicked out."). But do not divorce. The Bible says, "Do not divorce your wife." Plus, I think there is still much hope. Although, I'm not positive you should separate. It could end up being detrimental. In my case, things were pretty bad at home, but the separation did not help at all. So it is something you will really need to make a matter of serious prayer and ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment. Do not do anything rashly or out of anger or spite or wrong motives. May He give you wisdom to know what to do!

Your marriage is worth whatever sacrifice or cost it will take on your part.

I know you are scared of losing her, and that is where you must have faith and trust the Lord. There is honestly not much else you can do, but your God is an Almightly, all powerful God who loves you and loves marriage and as you seek Him in prayer, Bible study, fasting, etc... He will work on your behalf!

There is a spiritual battle and the enemy is not your wife but is satan who is doing all he can, obviously, to decieve your wife, to destroy her, to destroy your marriage. You need to take up your weapons (prayer, Bible, faith, righteousness) and fight this battle for your family! You need to stand in the gap for her because she is deceived right now, believing lies that Satan has told her. And he is using her in a sense, to lie to you as well and to defeat you. Like when he used Peter to try to stop Jesus and Jesus said to Peter, "Get away from me Satan!" Peter was not possessed or satanic, but often we believe satan's lies and we speak them and in so doing, satan destroys others through our words, without us realizing it.

Your wife does not know what she is saying right now. Remember when Jesus prayed, while on the cross, "Forigve them Lord, for they know not what they do." Your wife is saying things she believes to be true and she thinks she understands, but she doesn't. She doesn't realize that the breaking up of her family is going to cost dearly and bring tremendous grief to you, the kids, and someday, to her as well.

In a way, you need to look at her like the prodigal son who wanted to leave his home and father and the father did not stop him. The father did not retaliate, did not act unkindly, and even gave the son his inheritance, knowing he'd waste it. The father simply waited (I'm sure he prayed too) and the son returned home on his own, after the Lord got ahold of him by allowing him to hit bottom basically. That is the type of "letting go" I am talking of.

It sounds to me as if the Lord has been working in your heart, showing you many things already.

If you are interested, there are two restoration sites that have been blessings for me. One is www.restorem.org and the other is www.rejoiceministries.org. I will give those to you if you feel led to see them. They are ministries (not forums or chatrooms) run by couples who divorced (and had affairs) and then remarried and now have these ministries. They offer alot of insight and godly counsel.

God bless you and I pray for the healing of your marriage.

to lovemyex,
I would like to agree with about pursuing a separation, but my W said in this capacity she wanted me to understand she was interested in seeking other intimate relationships. I could not seem to embrace this openness towards marriage. She thinks we are not married. Divorce at this point is just a formality. She sees no connection which means there is no marriage. Therefore she sees no problem in having other outside relationships becasue she does not have anything for me. I could not work with that setup and asked her to therefore let me go. I could not sit back knowing she was seeking companionship with others while we are married.
My thoughts is she is still connected with me as long as we are married, she does'nt see that. I believe we may be the type that will have to look at the future of our possible existence when we are divorced. She shared last night that she is working on it but it may take some time becasue of her new career. I shared with her that I am seeing a counselor on my control issues that she has shared with me. Her response was "if I could had only opened up to that a long time ago maybe we would not be here."

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: psylocke ]</small>

Hi Psychlocke,

My advice to you about not divorcing is mostly because in Scripture, it says, "Husbands do not divorce your wives." I know there are alot of "ifs" "ands" and "buts", but divorce is such a not-good thing.

I am not sure how to advise you I guess. It sounds like your wife is actively pursuing adultery. It does not mean that you "must" divorce but Scripture says that, in that case, divorce is permitted.

I still think there is hope. It sounds like your wife is very deceived (I say that with compassion for her and with hate for satan who has deceived her). Sometimes, divorce does happen and sometimes through that "death" a new beginning can begin.

I can't remember if you mentioned, but have you earnestly prayed for your marriage and for your wife as well? Also fasted? Fasting can be very powerful. I know you mentioned some things like this above, but I can't quite remember.

I guess I just can't advise divorce because I believe so strongly in the power of Christ and the hope that we have as Believers. I believe that He can change your wife and change your marriage, even though, it obviously doesn't look so great. "Faith is believing what we cannot see."

I feel inadequate to advise you but I certainly wouldn't be quick to rush into divorce. Make sure you dilligently and fervently seek the Lord before making any decisions. Worship Him at Church, be in His Word, PRAY, fast, and wait upon Him to guide and direct you. I know you can't "wait" forever... but try to remember 1 Cor. 13 "love endures all things," "love always hopes," "always believes," "love never fails."

I don't want to tell you to stay in a relationship where your wife is having affairs, but I also don't want to tell you to divorce and this is a tough situation- which is why I advise what I did. You really need the Lord to help you discern and also to work in your wife's heart.

I can recommend a good book to you though. It's by Tony Evans called "Divorce and Remarriage"- it's a small booklet. He does a pretty good job explaining stuff. Also a good book called "How to Save Your Marriage Alone" by Ed Wheat (also little mini-book). And then those sites I told you about.

May God be with you and give you wisdom, strength, discernment, and peace. I know this must be very hard and I hope that you see my advice not as saying her behavior is okay but saying that God can change, heal, and work despite the circumstances. But her having affairs is not good and I think maybe she is justifying them by pointing at your sins. We all do that and she is not condemned for that. She is a sinner. But, it might take some sort of action for her to see that... I think that's why I said separation.

You and her ARE married. It is odd, but my husband said things like that too... I have found alot of commonality in things said and done among those divorcing and I honestly believe with all my entire whole heart that that's because Satan uses many similar schemes and lies. But the Word of God stands, and you are husband and wife and feelings don't change that. So take assurance in His Word and remember that your wife is being fed lies from Satan and it sounds as if he is really working hard to destroy.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Here's one resource:

Alpha Counseling Services
contact person: Tom Day - M.A., Licensed Professional Counselor, Consultant

Counsels pastors, their marriages and their families.

phone: (419) 521-1403

e-mail: tom_day@email.com

Ministry couples in personal and professional crisis have sought out the clergy care services available to them at the MLC.

http://www.pastor-care.com./aboutmlc.html

I have not experienced the above resources, but just found them on the web, and they appear to be
worth looking into. There are others I'm still checking out...

You stated that when you give your position, she views it as control. Did you allow her to equally state her view, give it and her respect, and take her view into consideration as a final decision was being made? Some personality types need encouragement as well to voice their opinions.Did you discuss other options, compromises, that might be mutually satisfying?

Give it some thought/prayer...