Dear ThornedRose,

I may have to resort to that...I hope not. My daughter (bless her heart)took the kids shopping for school shoes yesterday with her own money. Amazing what neat kids I have.

It is sad because I tried to refinance my house--I have a lot of equity in it...and I can't because he ruined our credit.. That was embarrassing too. The loan officer is a friend of mine and when I went up there he said "What happened to your credit? You always had good credit!" Well, my ex quit paying on bills for about 4 months...and that is enough to really hurt your credit rating.

I need another miracle. Please keep us in your prayers. Pat

I do love my soon-to-be Ex. I will never forgive her for what she is doing but she's doing it for a reason. She usually does the right thing but I can't see how this is right when there are 2 little children involved (4 and 20 months). I'm only wishing, hoping, and praying that we can reconcile somewhere down the road. She's my soulmate but right now is not our time.
The pain is overwhelming. I mean it's tough to be strong but I have to for my children. However, when my children aren't around I just fall apart. I can't belive how much I can cry and have cried over the last 2 months.
I am going to focus on God and His love so maybe that will get me to that good place, whatever that is.
Please pray for me and pray that my Ex will give me time that I can show her I'm trying to change my negative ways. I have to change in order for us to have any type of future. She says we have to be cordial and friends before ANYTHING could happen between us, if ever. So, that's what I'm going to do. She has historically given great advice and direction so let's hope we can be friends and once she see's I'm a permanently changed man she'll have some feelings for me or at least want to "date" me again. Maybe I'm nieve (probably but oh well, it's all I have ---HOPE and FAITH). That's all I ask. If it's not meant to be that's fine, I can accept that, but without a legitimate chance at us then it'll be tough. Right now I can't honestly looked my children in the eyes and tell them this is the best for everybody, b/c it's not. I'm trying not to be selfish (which i don't think I did in the past) but my kids come first, before me and her.
We'll see. But to answer your question, I don't hate her I love her and I hope she has a change of heart.
Thanks!!!!

Don't let your pride get in the way of asking for help..if you need help..go and ask for it..

there is no reason for you to be ashamed or embarassed by what you are going through..or that your credit is messed up..you can write letters to the creditors and make a payment plan to get things back on track..

there are also agencies that can help get the child support for you..if money is that tight..
call legal aid--if you need to and see if they can represent you legally if you need to go back to court--

as far as your kids go..have they all told him how they feel about all of this? (it sounds like they have) and he's ignored them...so tell them to continue to be honest with him..if they have to get assertive and say--

"dad, I love you, but I will NEVER agree that what you did to our family was right--you destroyed it, and don't want to be a part of your wedding..please accept that, just as you are wanting us to accept the fact that you want to marry someone else, respect is a two way street"

ThornedRose,

Good ideas for the kids. I have been telling them to talk to their dad. But if it is not what he wants to hear--he attacks them. Usually there is alcohol involved when he does that.

It is terrible. I knew he could be cruel to me in the past--but to his kids? He needs help...and I wish there was a way to protect the kids from his influence. I knew we needed to bring this up in court...but my lawyer made a deal, and that was that.

I know he loves the kids in his own weird way...but he has blinders on when it concerns his own behavior. I think he is getting worse than he used to be. He never could admit he was wrong. And he knows how to destroy emotionally. The kids are going to have to toughen up their skins. I was always there to buffer his behavior before--but now they are going to have to stand up for themselves. And that is hard to do with him.

I know we will get through this...it is just another episode. Unfortunately, he still has not sent his child support tho. I got paper work sent to me to fill out for family support services. Will get started on that tonight. Thanks for the post...I am going to talk to the kids about it tonight. Pat

I don't hate my X, I just don't like the person she has become. Lying, cheating... let's stop there...

Remarriage...? SURE!!!

but, not to her.

I think I have someone else picked out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Actually, this thread has really made me think about things. I have had moments in which I have hated my ex. They usually stem from a certain 'look' that she has when I am speaking to her and she knows I am right, but refuses to allow me to see that she knows I am right. She knows that it is the most devastating thing she could do other than hurt our children. So she uses it all the time. I have seen that 'look' for over 14 years, and I saw it for the last time about 2 weeks ago. I refuse to ever converse with her face to face about anything again. There is no point and I only come away feeling horrible.

I originally thought that I hated her for her choices. I have thought that I didn't care for her because of her choices. I have said I didn't care, was indifferent, hated, didn't like, didn't love, didn't most things and absolutely believed it at the time I was saying it.

But I believe more in God and my belief that he has led me, and I just have to follow. Oh, I fall down all the time, usually when I am driving to and from work. But the fact is... I have found through all this... that I still love her. Not in the wife/husband way any longer. That is a two way street and there has been absolutely NO return of that since June of last year. I have seen her go to great lengths to show me just how much she does not like me. That is OK. I can deal with that. I know that it is her hurting rather than how she really feels.

I truly believe that she is so sorry for what has happened, and if she was able to turn back the clock, she would. However, I also know that she is of such weak character that she would be and is completely unwilling to change herself, because that would mean that she would be admitting to herself and the rest of the world that she was wrong. Something that she was never able to do during our marriage.

She rarely if ever said she was 'sorry' first. She would say "me too", but I can't even remember a time that she came to me and said she was 'Sorry' for something. She has lived defensively, because I believe she has no self respect and no sense of self worth. She continually lashes out at anyone and everyone that disagrees with her. She lives by her ability to show she is right. Regardless of whether she is or not. She isn't 'OK' unless she can be 'right'. Which is what she used to say was always what was wrong with me.

She said 'You are always right' when she would be proven that her way of thinking was not in line with reality. She would realize it, but rather than just say, maybe you are right, it was 'You are always right' 'That is just how you have to be.'

She was a master at being able to use facial expressions to hurt me. The most callous was her 'So what' expression. The "I know you are right and I am wrong, but SO WHAT!!!"... I saw it for the last time ever the last time I looked her in the eyes. I will never put myself in that situation again. There is no point other than to hurt myself. She is lost and refuses to see anything other than her own 'happiness'. She isn't even happy, she just is 'going all the time' in order to not have to think about who she is. At least that is what it seems like to me.

But, I don't hate her... I love her. I love her because she is the person who I dedicated the rest of my life to. She is the first real love that I ever had, and she is the person who went through so many hardships in order to get to this place in life, only to choose to discard it at the end. She is the mother of my children, which in and of itself would keep me from hating her. But that is not all. I believe in God... I believe in his mercy, and I believe that I should follow his will. Not because he tells me to. Not because he 'commands' that I forgive. Not because he 'commands' that I love.

But because I really WANT TO love her. I don't want the pain of her. I don't want the pain of any relationship with her. I don't want the discouragement of seeing my children influenced by her. I don't want my children to have their family torm by her.

But I want to love her. Perhaps not like a husband... I feel that perhaps I could overcome what has happened, but I have no faith that she could EVER overcome herself. I am not looking for it, and it really isn't on my mind. I just never say never... but I also don't pine away for her. I have seen life as a man who has regained his dignity, retained his honor, and is capable of loving again.

I see what I have to offer... and it amazes even me. I see what I want to do... who I want to be and am... what I want to mean to someone... who I want to be to my boys...

I don't hate her. I love her. It is different, because it is completely beset with continual heartache, however... I have faith and know that if I choose to follow the example that has been provided for me, that my life will blossom. Perhaps alone... perhaps not. But it will become fuller at each and every turn. I don't have to follow commands... I want to follow an example.

I don't always... not by a long shot. But at least I know where the sidelines are and can know that somewhere ahead is a goal line. And if I continue on my way, I will reach it someday.

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Neat Response FC!!

I DON'T THINK I REALLY "HATE" MY EX HUBBY, MAYBE DISLIKE HIM A LOT. ACTUALLY I FEEL SORRY FOR HIM, HE'S A VERY TROUBLED INDIVIDUAL. JUST THANKFUL I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH HIM MUCH (EXCEPT FOR WHEN HE HAS MY BOYS)~WHICH ISN'T VERY OFTEN.

NO WAY I WOULD EVER CONSIDER REMARRYING HIM, OR FOR THAT MATTER, ANYONE. NO DESIRE TO DO THAT WHOLE THING AGAIN. DON'T THINK I EVER WILL BE. I AM FINALLY CONTENTED IN MY LIFE AND HAPPY WITH MY LIFE WITH MY BOYS. I LOVE THE INDEPENDENCY I FEEL. WOULDN'T GO BACK FOR NOTHING!!!!!

Being angry or disappointed at your spouse or ex-spouse has nothing to do with loving them. Love is permanent. I will always love my H, and I would certainly want to remarry him. Not all of our children want him back, however.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>Love is permanent. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree.......it depends on what happened during the marriage. I feel you CAN no longer love someone depending on the circumstances.

started another post...to not steal this one..

<small>[ August 15, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>Love is permanent.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie and I have *always* agreed on this point - always!

I believe that love is unconditional, and that it doesn't end. I do think it can change, and things like disappointment and hurts help to change it.

I am remarried to a wonderful man who I adore, and I am deeply in-love with him. That doesn't, for me, take away from the love I will always feel for my ex. I care about his well-being, am happy for his successes, and have no doubt will cry when he dies.

Yeah, he has hurt me, and I have hurt him. Yeah, we had some ugly, ugly times where we said and did things that can never be taken back. Yeah, we divorced. But no piece of paper will change how I feel. In short, there is love there, and always will be.

As far as the original question in this thread: I probably would have gone back to my ex had I not met my H, because I did still have some "in-love" feelings for him when we divored. Those feelings, which I believe differ from "loving" someone, did go away, but again, I believe they can be rekindled with work (or never do go away, as in Nellie's case). However, it would have been a mistake to return to my ex, in my opinion. I don't think our marriage was meant to be saved, for many reasons.

I feel utterly blessed and lucky to have found my H, and don't take him, or our marriage for granted. And yes, if anything ever happens to end this marriage (God forbid), I will always and forever love him too.

So love is permanent and unconditional hugh???...............

a hypothetical situation: Say you fell in love with a guy......later to find out he was a complete shiester. He lied to you the whole time during your marriage, he beat the crap outta you, he spent all your money, he slept with other women and brought you home a present from them.....an STD. Would you still love that guy???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> If you would.....I would call you......well, you can fill in the blank.

StartinOver:

You obviously do not believe in unconditional love, and that's certainly your right. If you don't understand how one can love another in spite of circumstances, I won't try to convince you.

But I will tell you this, regarding your question about the pig husband who brings home a mess: I would be angry, and have actually had some of the situation you mention happen to me in the past... so yes, I would be angry, and know that for a fact. Would I still love him? If I loved him, truly loved him, in the beginning, I would still love him, but hate what he's done.

I would ask myself what I loved about him in the past - as in: What was it about him that was lovable? Has that changed? Is something (like alcohol or mental illness) getting in the way of the man I once knew? Or, did I not really love him in the first place? Maybe it was just that I didn't want to be alone, or I needed physical companionship or sex, or myriad other "emotions" that drew me to him, but weren't actually true love.

I had other boyfriends in the past (obviously before I was married the first time), and I thought I loved those men, but I didn't. There is a difference, that's all I'm suggesting.

There is a thin line between love and hate.

What if your child lied to you, stole your money, and perhaps threatened your life? That has happened to many parents - would you stop loving your child?

Of course I would continue to love my H under the circumstances you described. I might not want to reconcile, and I would certainly be furious, but that has nothing to do with love.

For what it's worth I don't hate my WS. I do dislike him for what he has done and what he has put me through. I also still want to reconcile with him, but I want the man I married back, not the one he is now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StartinOver:
<strong>Say you fell in love with a guy......later to find out he was a complete shiester. He lied to you the whole time during your marriage, he beat the crap outta you, he spent all your money, he slept with other women and brought you home a present from them.....an STD. Would you still love that guy???? If you would.....I would call you......well, you can fill in the blank.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I would call you...an idealist. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm an idealist. I believe that if love is not unconditional, it's not love at all.

But love sometimes compels us to do things that we don't feel like doing, that we don't want to do. Sometimes love compels us to let go, and to let those we love reap the consequences of their own choices.

Love isn't about allowing oneself to be trampled. It's about caring. Sometimes it's about caring enough to walk away.

I DO FEEL UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR 4 OF MY CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN. I WAS TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH MY EX AT ONE TIME. THERE IS NOT ANY KIND OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR HIM ANY MORE, NO WAY!

I CARE THAT HE IS MY CHILDREN'S FATHER, AND WOULD NOT WISH FOR ANYTHING TO HAPPEN TO HIM~BUT THAT ISN'T AN UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR HIM, AT ALL. TO ME, YOU CAN'T COMPARE YOUR CHILDREN WITH THAT FEELING OF LOVE, AS TO AN EX THAT COMPLETELY TREATED YOU BADLY FOR YEARS.

READ MY POST OVER AGAIN, AND IT SAID 4 OF MY CHILDREN, THAT IS ALL OF THEM, I HAVE FOUR AND LOVE THEM ALL UNCONDITIONALLY.

THE WAY I WORDED IT AFTER READING THE POST, WAS I HAD UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR 4 OF MY KIDS~~
GUESS I NEED TO READ BEFORE SENDING!