miserynmissouri:

I felt I'd start another post..as it's a topic of it's own...

--But if it is not what he wants to hear--he attacks them. Usually there is alcohol involved when he does that.--

It is terrible. I knew he could be cruel to me in the past--but to his kids? --

I fully understand these statements,as my kids go through the same thing for the same reasons..
alcohol..

I am learning though, "HE" does not have a problem with his drinking, but the kids and I DO have a problem with his drinking--

He see's nothing wrong with it..he does not see the effects of his drinking..he does not feel the hurt he's caused when he's drinking..therefore it's not a problem to him..

Now, when he begins to realize that the kids do not like being around him when he's drinking..he
may begin to feel the effects..but so far that hasn't happened..

Maybe your kids could write their dad a letter and explain how his actions when he's drinking hurts them..and send it to him, so he can read and re-read it.

It "might" help him to grasp what they are saying

My kids have told their dad how they feel about his drinking..and he doesn't seem to care..but
when they don't want to spend time with him..he feels the effects..and gets angry at me..because he doesn't want to look at himself and his drinking as the reason..he wants to continue to blame someone else..(me) and you know..that's okay
he can blame ME all he wants..I know the truth,
the kids know the truth..and deep down, he knows the truth, because they have told him..he just isn't ready to face it..as it's always easier to blame everyone else..

So if they tell him..he will know why..he can get angry all he wants..they can not control that..
but they also don't have to take it personally..

there are a few books out there..Boundaries for Kids, Boundaries, Boundaries in Marriage--Tough Love..that you and your kids could read..and it can help you all deal with this so much easier..

When they realize dad can be angry if he wants too
he can blame me if he wants to, he can blame mom
if he wants to, he can blame his job--but it doesn't change the truth..we don't like being around him when he's drinking...and the only way
he will know this and how much it hurts..is by being honest with him..they could write him a no-contact letter..saying something like..

"Dad, I love you, but when you are drinking the words you drink it hurts me deeply, and until you stop drinking when I am around, I don't want to spend time with you"

Maybe that will help..

<small>[ August 15, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

Good suggestions,

They have emailed him about their feelings--but you are right..he just blames me or them.

They haven't written him though--and that might be the ticket.

The part they have a hard time with (and I always have to) is that he is so unpredictable--even when he hasn't been drinking.

Like tonight when he came to pick up the kids--he seemed great--calm, understanding, helpful---but he might use that tomorrow and turn around and attack...Does that make sense? That is why it is so hard living with him.

He chews tobacco, is a horrible alcoholic...but beneath all that--I really think he has some type of chemical imbalance. His perceptions of things are sometimes just so far out of whack. The tobacco and alcohol make it so much worse.

Anyway, that makes it hard to talk to him. He sometimes can be very understanding and loving--and sometimes he takes that same information you have given him previously and totally distorts it.

The other issue is that he is never wrong. And if he is in the mood to be spun up--watch out. That is so hard for the kids to deal with. I used to protect them from him--or at least tried to minimize the damage. Now, they just have to deal with him--because his mistress doesn't interfere.

THis isn't a new problem...but since he has discarded me, he blames me for everything, and attacks the kids when they won't say what he wants to hear.

My lawyer advised me to tell the kids to tell him that they won't talk or listen to him when he has been drinking--and then hang up. They do try to rationalize with him, and you can't...it doesn't work.

It is painful to watch the hurt he inflicts when he is in that mood--and it is worse when he is drinking.

Thanks for your help and comments. I really do appreciate them. I wish I knew how to help him--but I tried for years. Maybe this is how God wants him to realize that he has to change...and me too. I always put him first--and I think I had my priorities wrong. Pat

Yes, all of those things make perfect sense to me
as I've also lived it..

I don't think the tabacoo has anything to do with it...as it's more a sin problem than anything else

question, did/do either of his parents drink?
what was his childhood like? alot of the answers
for how he deals with life's problems can be found
in what he learned as a child...

There is a book "The Blended Family" that discusses some of these things..the Bible also talks about them, they are called generational sins, that are past down from generation to generation..example..

Your father slammed a fist down just to get his point across..so you learn to get your point across you need to slam your fist--

We know this instills fear and is not the appropriate way of getting your point across..
but we learned as children..this is what my dad did and it worked for him...so I will do the same thing..so it is past down to the following generation..and until one person steps out and learns new communication skills..the cycle will continue to be past from generation to generation-

When I was in counseling, two of my counselors recommended I make a family tree, which was easy because it has always been one of my interests--
and I had all the information..but it helped give my ancestors a personality..and me perspective--

Example--in my family

My dad was an alcoholic..as was his father, and his father before him..

in my mothers family it was different..

neither of my grandparents drank..both were very strong Christians..but, my grandmother's father was an alcoholic..as an adult child of an alcholic carried those learned behaviors of how to deal with problems into her marriage--(with much help from my grandfather over the years those changed) but not before the behaviors were past down to the next generation..

Growing up, as a child of an abusive drunk..and a
conflict avoider mother..I didn't learn proper relationship skills..be they conflict resolution,
communitcation skills..and such..I married a man
much like my father..

His father was also an alcoholic, and had a mother
who was a conflict avoider so what dad said went
or their was h$$$ to pay..

All of these women learned what the man said went
just to avoid trouble..and the men were taught
the women will do what they said...or they would suffer--

When I was a teen I accepted Christ as my Savior,
but, It wasn't until I began growing in my faith
and began to have a true understanding about what the Bible says about relationships, boundaries, and marriage was not what I learned as child..was I able to begin changing the patterns..I had to relearn all the skills I was taught..when I began doing that..it caused more trouble in my marriage

The bible teaches that if what our spouse says goes against what God says..we pray and follow God..not our spouse..and let God deal with the spouse..which is why there was more trouble in my marriage..because I was no longer doing just what my h wanted to avoid the conflict..I began stepping up and learning to deal with the issues
as opposed to sweeping them under the rug..my ex-h
didn't want to learn these new skills..and left the marriage..

And I had to understand that was okay..that was his choice..not mine..but his..and I had to respect his choice if he was ever going to learn to respect mine..I didn't like his choice, but I
respect it, and accept it as his..even if it has caused much hurt--and I've learned I can live with the truth much better than a lie..I find peace knowing the truth..(the truth will set you free)

This sounds like where you are at--your changing
and your ex has not..as you've changed so are your children..they are learning a new style of relating..because you are learning to relate to them differently..and you all want your ex to follow suit and learn these things too..but he isn't..and you can't force it..

but you can as I said in another post..begin to set up boundaries..and he will either learn to accept your boundaries or he won't..and if he doesn't then that is his loss..because as with anyone who over steps your boundaries continually
you end the relationship..or you spend very little time with them..which is when they begin to suffer the consequences of their actions if they really want a relationship with you..

if they don't..then they continue on their merry way..and find others who will allow them to walk all over them..but you are healthier and happier
because you are no longer stressed by this person
being an active part in your life..

So many people think setting boundaries are mean and that because you set them you no longer love the person, but, that is so wrong..even God has boundaries..

One of them is that God hates it when we sin..
He does not hate us, He just hates what we do some times (just as you hate the way your ex-h drinks and is abusive)you hate the actions..not the person..

the Bible says that sin seperates us from God..
this means..it breaks our fellowship with Him--
just as with what is going on in your family--
your ex-h's drinking has broken the fellowship within his family--if we confess our sin to God
and repent, stop doing it..God will again restore fellowship--just as if your ex-h confessed, and repented it could again restore fellowship within your family...

God loves us, but He doesn't tolerate certain things..just as when we love others..we don't have to tolerate certain behaviors..God wants us to respect Him, and His boundaries, in order to have fellowship...just as want others to respect us and our boundaries to have fellowship...

Such a simple principle that so many people don't understand..

Dear ThornedRose,

Thanks for your thoughts....My ex did learn some awful behaviors from his family. His dad was a mean person for a long time.He had a horrible temper. He is doing better now--but his whole family still cator to his moods. His mother is a counselor, which in itself is interesting. I haven't ever seen any good counseling out of her. She worked at the high school level for years. She has had 4 out of the 5 sons have bad drug and alcohol problems. They all have been pretty successful and they are smart. One of the sons has turned himself around--and they have a great marriage. The irrational temper stuff is seen to some degree in all of them. The second oldest son is a millionaire now--he has had numerous extra-marital affairs. My ex had at least 5 that I know of. His youngest brother is 41 and never been married. He is a really good looking guy and smart. He has had numerous women living with him--and then he breaks up with them.

My ex has always tried to impress his parents. I realize now that his first allegiance has always been to them--from day one in our relationship. In fact, he is getting married on his father's birthday in October. Interesting. His father was married before to a girl named Patty. My ex didn't know about that marriage until high school when his half sister showed up at the door. His half sister was pretty messed up in the head. She had a daughter tho--who seems in the last 10 years or so to become enmeshed in the family.

My mother-in-law realizes what her son has done and is doing...but she cators to him too. I remember when we had first gotten married, we were visiting them and she ran an errand to the bank. When she got back she said, "Guess who I ran into"...and she named some girl at the bank. She said she thinks you are the sexiest man alive. "She was so excited to hear you were in town". It was such a weird conversation in front of me. I couldn't believe she just gushed on and on. She has seen her son behave horribly with and without alcohol for years--since before we were married....but she never said he needed help....

They always continued to build him up--no matter what kind of stupid thing he did.

I find it difficult to believe that they don't tell him to get help. I don't hear from them at all anymore. It is sad because we were friends for 26 years.

She does email to my kids tho. Her husband still treats her bad in front of anyone when he feels like it. She is at best his servant, which is what she likes.

I think, when I look back on it now, both of his parents probably had affairs in their marriage. I have a feeling that when they met, he was married. I definitely know she was pregnant with my ex when they got married.

That would explain how she can support him in this mess he has made of our lives. I don't know.

But, you know what...you are right...I do still love him. Pretty sick isn't it. I loved him when I met him, I loved him when I married him and I love him now.

I wish our lives hadn't turned out this way. I wish he hadn't treated us like he has. I wish he would get help and I wish he would grow up and be responsible and take care of his family.

He is clinging to this OW--because she supports him. She doesn't stand up to him....and from what I have heard on the phone--she puts up with his alcoholic crap.....she doesn't realize what she is getting. Pretty sad. Pat

m-n-m,

Sorry, I don't think misery is good name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I realize that you love this man...but reading what you've written others would think your
'blessednmissouri' that this man has chosen to take his problems elsewhere, as he doesn't see a need to change..

After reading your last post, I noticed something-
all of the things you wrote were about your ex's
family...

From what you've said about your ex-in-laws, why would you expect them to tell him to get help? It appears they have always done the same thing..

Now, do the same thing with your own family--

What did you learn as a child? How did your family
relate to each other? that you have stayed in this situation for the past 26 years and accepted it as normal?

If you notice in my post, I shared how I learned my own coping skills I have looked at my own family and learned what needed to change in "ME"--yes, I can also clearly areas in my ex's family that helped him become the man he is..and how he deals with problems, but I also learned, I couldn't change him nor could I make him want to change, the only thing I could do, is look at myself, and make changes in me..so I would be a better person..and hopefully he would see that and want to make changes in himself..

In my case...he didn't see a need to change..and
he left the marriage--yes, it hurt's..but it's okay, I have a better more fullfilling relationships now than I ever have in the past..
and because I 've learned these things--I can teach my them to our kids..

sure I'll still make mistakes..and they will have their own set of things to deal with from those mistakes..and thats okay, it's part of life..
but I am hopefully teaching them that all relationships have problems, and if both people are willing to work at changing bad habits within themselves..and openly and honestly communicate
with each other..they will have stronger marriages..

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> His perceptions of things are sometimes just so far out of whack. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't read your whole thread, but I can relate to this statement. My X had Alcohol issues. But he also had thyroid issues, as did my friends husbands. It's an odd coincidence.

However, as an ACOA, I'm writing to ask that you get your children actively involved in Al-anon, so they don't repeat these patterns or become co-dependents. They might not want to do it, but it may be the best gift you could ever give them.

Dear ThornedRose,

Good comments, I appreciate them. I have thought also about changing my name---gotten used to it tho--I guess I have been on here for over 2 years now. I need to think of a new one that provides more hope for those going through this.

I have thought a lot about my family of origin and how it may have influenced me and my choice of marriage partners.

My mother was the "crisis" in my family. To this day she is very critical...in fact says hurtful things all the time. She has gotten worse as she ages. I have two older brothers--and we love our mom--but it is difficult being around her for a period of time. That is why having her move in with me will be hard. She has always glorified my older brother, but even throws out barbs at him anymore. My older brother has turned into a conflict avoider because of the way we were raised. My other brother is very black and white--extremely stubborn in his views--also I think a result of how we were raised.

My father was a wonderful man, very loving and kind. Interesting tho--my father came from an abusive home. Evidently, he moved away from home when he was 15 for that reason. My dad devoted himself to his family. He had a major life change when he was 50--changing from a company he had worked with for his entire life, uprooting his family and trying to start over in a new location. The new job didn't work out--tho he stuck it out. Stress got to him, and he developed pancreatic cancer and died at the age of 58. It was so sad.

That is when my ex stepped into the picture.

I was a beautiful girl when younger, but I was extremely shy and didn't have any self-confidence. I had a great time in high school--lots of dating, very involved, but no serious commitments. Then I moved to an extremely large university--where I was one of a million girls just like me.

When I met my ex, I fell madly in love. He was very good looking, charming and I think he "rescued" me. He was great except with these mood swings. And when the mood would hit, he would drink until he blacked out--and during these episodes, he would say and do the most horrible things. The next morning, he would feel great and act like nothing had happened--and it would take me days to get over it. Pretty sad when I think back on it. Sex was great--infact intoxicating--and I think I confused that with love. He seemed to enjoy kids, he satisfied my emotional needs--except in those horrible episodes.

My dad, before he died recognized my ex's personality flaws. He wouldn't allow him into the house before he died. My ex told my parents tho that "He loved me and no matter what they thought, he was going to marry me". Well, I believed him...

Over the years, what I have heard is "We told you so. You should have left him before you even had kids. You should have left him after his first affair. You never should have had K & K"....and so on and so forth.

Unfortunately, they were right and I was wrong. He didn't love me, he liked what I could offer him. If you notice, he didn't divorce me until his military career was over--he couldn't--it would have been too big of a blunder.

Why did I do it?.... I really thought we had a special relationship. I know we had a great family. I thought we were pursuing the same goals. We loved to do a lot of things, such as snow skiing, water skiing, boating, spending time with our kids, entertaining. It wasn't perfect, by any means--and he was downright emotionally, and on 2 occasions physically abusive to me. The good times were good, and the bad times were horrible--but no one saw that--except us. From the outside, we looked like an ideal family. Guess it goes to show you that you never know.

I don't know what the answer would have been...I don't know why I married him, and I don't know why I stuck it out--I just kept thinking it would get better and that our love was special. Evidently, our love was special for me and not for him. Three months after his retirement, he wrote me the most beautiful love letter--apologizing for all the pain and hurt he had given me. Five months later--he was having ONS and then met his current bimbo. We were getting ready to complete our upstairs and downstairs rooms--infact, he had started construction on them....everything is still up there, just where he left it.

I don't get it--I don't understand. As much as I think about it and try to understand--there is no explanation. He dumped me for her and has never looked back. He has hurt his kids--and I think he still deludes himself that they are happier now. It is sad.

As far as I am concerned...there is definitely something wrong with me too--to love a man who was emotionally abusive--who could intentionally hurt his wife and family over and over again. I do think he is a sociopath. A little tiny part of me feels sorry for his bimbo--not for long tho. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Newly,

I wish I could get them to go to counseling. My oldest two are really hurting--and they have been for awhile. All four of my kids are very strong--but this is a very life changing situation. I know this sounds like a cop out, but we really are running ragged right now. Soccer season has started--school has started and work has started for me....not much time for anything. My oldest daughter plays college ball, my next two daughters play for select teams in KC and son plays in another league in KC.

I think what I am going to try to do is provide them with reading materials--they do read. My youngest two I am thinking of sending to a divorce care class for kids at our church. I don't know. Too bad they don't have a site like this for kids going through divorce. I have had more help through this site--and the price is right too.

Better run and get dinner going. Thanks Pat

Pat, I'd like to second newly's suggestion about Alateen and would like to add, once again, the suggestion that you at least try Al-Anon. I don't mean to be pushy, but I really feel for you every time I read your posts because I relate so much to your situation. I, too, loved my STBXH and still feel sad about what he did to our marriage and family and what he's still doing to himself. But, I know that there is absolutely nothing I or anyone but God can do to change him.

Your lawyer's suggestion is good because it's about your kids learning to take care of themselves. If he's drinking, they aren't talking, end of story. No explanation about how he hurts them, etc., because, believe it or not, your XH already knows this. It will only cause him to lash out in retaliation, either at the kids or at you. You can't make him hate himself more than he already does. And, hating himself more won't get him sober.

Yes your X has a screwy family, that's par for the course. That's something he'll have to deal with in his own way if he ever chooses sobriety.

The only person you can change is you and the best thing you can do for your kids, and even to influence your X, is to get help for yourself. Just like the safety speech when you get on an airplane that tells you to put the oxygen mask on yourself first before trying to help your kids. The same thing applies here. Set an example by taking care of yourself first. You're worth it.

Al-Anon is absolutely free and they stress anonymity, in other words, respect for one another's privacy. It's a support group made up of friends and family members of alcoholics. Everyone there understands the confusion of living with the "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" personality changes, the shame, the low self-esteem, the helplessness. You haven't been through anything that others there won't have experienced and you're responding in the same ways that others have, too.

I don't mean to be preachy, I just don't know how I would have gotten through this without Al-Anon as well as MB. BTW, I'm on my way to an Al-Anon meeting right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: LetSTry ]</small>

Dear LetSTry,

Thank you so much for your post. I think it is hard for me to make that step--tho I have heard such wonderful things about it. I do have some of their books...and if I can squeese in some time--I will try to go. It has been suggested to me for awhile now. Maybe it will help. Thanks Pat

M-n-M,

His being recently retired is also a thing to look at here---

He spent 20+ years in the military...and then all of a sudden that is gone..I will assume (having been in the military,having been a military brat, and other experiences I have w/ the military) that he went on deployments a lot?

So now, he's home all the time, no future deployments to look too--to go and hide from the day to day struggles of family life..and because of his family background, he handles problems the same way..running from them as opposed to facing them...

"If I don't see problems, they don't exist"

Drinking is just another form of running away..
trying to pretend the problems don't exist..
I know, because years ago, I tried that..it didn't work, when sobered up, the problems were still there..

You know, reading your post is like reading something my mother would have written in her diary...my father after retiring after 20+ years in the military, after years of emotional abuse--
and three years of one affair after another--
he started a new life, new career, new wife
new family..who just can't understand why me and my siblings don't have much to do with him..
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Pat,
I agree with ThornedRose that there are always other issues underlying the alcohol and/or drug abuse, as well as the "addiction," if you will, to the alcoholic/addict that some of us suffer. All addictions are a form of escape. The important issue, though, is that you first have to stop the addictive behavior before you can really start to address the underlying issues. You can't figure out why your X did what he did. I can't figure out why mine left me, our business, our "dream home," and even his family for a life with a bunch of dysfunctional young people less than 1/2 his age, why he hasn't worked in almost 3 years, and why he continues to thwart my every effort to divorce him despite absolutely no contact for over a year. All I know is that, for me, letting go of the obsession to figure it out was a huge step.

The first 3 of the 12 steps of AA and Al-Anon can be paraphrased as, "I can't, God can, Maybe I'll let Him." Every day I turn my will and my life over to God and do my best to accept His will in everything. It's not easy. I'm not very trusting, even of God. But slowly, my life is getting better. It's way more serene already, which is a good thing, but (and this is my sickness) I still sometimes miss the drama of life with my S(someday)TBXH, even though it's much less frequent than in the past. The hardest thing when you've been affected by someone else's alcoholism is to stay focused on yourself and your own recovery. A friend in Al-Anon once described it as having a case of the "He-He's," meaning, when asked how she was doing she'd answer with, "He did this...and then He did that..." When "He" isn't drinking, or when "He" is calm, then we're ok, but when "He" is not okay, neither are we.

If you didn't already have issues from your family of origin that led you to choose a dysfunctional relationship, then your XH's behavior over the past 26 years has given you plenty of issues to work on. I can only say this because I've been through it myself. I thought if I could just fix my H then everything would be ok. But no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't do it and I was still left with my own misery. It's been a slow process, but it's worth it. And with kids, it's even more important. If you can't do it for you, then do it for them. Alcoholism is a "family disease" in that it affects everyone, not just the drinker, and it will continue unless someone decides to do something different.

Thanks LetSTry for sharing your thoughts.

I just got home from school...I wish I had the time and energy to do something once I get home--but this job is so draining.

I also have trouble just finding time for me--sounds like an excuse, but it is really true. I always feel like I am 10 steps behind. The few minutes I have to ck Marriagebuilders is the only time I have to afford myself right now.

This is hard. I know I have said it before...but just keeping up with the household chores, lawn and garden stuff, kids activities and just all the teacher things--leaves me no time at all. I am too tired to even get my exercising in.

I manage to get to church on Sunday--and that is about it. Pretty sad, isn't it? We haven't even started soccer games yet--just practices. I am tired and I have only been back to work 1 week and 2 days. (Only 171 left to go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

The serman last week was on managing your time more effectively--but I don't know how you do that with 4 active kids and a busy job.

Thank God for this site. I love the stuff you post--and it really does keep me sane.

When I am 70 maybe I will have more time to do stuff for me. Do they have alanon on line????

M-N-M,

Actually, I think they do have al-alon online..

And I realize you feel your kids need to play in sports and be doing something all the time..but have you sat down and asked them if it's really what they want or if some times they would rather just stay home and relax...they don't have to do everything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

at one point my OD was playing basketball practice 3 days a week games 2 days a week, and my other daughter was in dance two days..and we never had time to relax...my son was wanting to be in baseball and football, and cub scouts..I finally said enough..because I couldn't take it
we were hardly ever home..spending time as a family..sure they loved doing these things..but there were times when they just wanted to STAY HOME and not go anywhere--or come home and just play with their friends..so we made some changes..

My daughter enjoys playing basketball much more now that she's not on a team with a coach barking down her neck..my other daughter still loves to dance, and her and her friends get together and make up their own dances and enter the school talent show--and my son enjoys playing football in the yard with the neighborhood kids his age..
it's so much more relaxed..I can sit outside and watch all of them play at one time..and not be pushed beyond what one person is capable of doing-
and I can even get out there and play with them if I want..

With this were home, we sit down and relax, have dinner--talk about the day's events--and share in each others lives..were not constantly on the run
and they seem to be less stressed--

Just something to think about..and to let you know
you don't have to always be on the go..you can say NO to some activities--