Hello Renae,<P>How are you now. I'll tell you what I really think.<P>Even after all you've been through, you are willing to give your husband "ONE MORE CHANCE".<P>I hope you pay heed to what I'm saying: you are a BATTERED WIFE.<P>You need help Renae in learning how to deal with this. You need to get out of this situation NOW in order to protect you and your children. Forget being Mrs. Nice Guy and giving it another chance. You need to be strong so that you can stand on your own feet and not depend on this abuse that is being thrown at you.<P>Wake up girl. Forget this guy and get on with your life.<P>Being nice didn't work so now we have to try the harsh method. Hope this message gets through to you.<P>Renae, stop tormenting your self and your kids. It's time to amputate to get rid of the disease otherwise, it will spread even more.<P>Know that all this is said because we want this abuse to end. Take care and keep us posted.<p>[This message has been edited by lonelywife2 (edited September 10, 2001).]

Regarding attornys, definitely use one to represent your interests. Your husband has already shown that his word holds no weight. His word is not reliable or dependable. So why take the risk. At such an emotional time, you need someone who will be objective and who will protect you and your childrens' interests.<P>You could always draw up your own contract but before signing it, get a lawyer to review it. Don't bypass this crucial step in order to save money at this time.<P>Please keep us posted. Take care.

Last night H made it clear that he has no intention of doing any personal or more marital therapy, that he sees me as the whole problem, that he is even in right standing with God!!! He said we've already been separated spiritually and emotionally, etc. during the last three years, and now he just wants to divorce and that's the end of it. <P>If you are so sure, then I can tell your pastor? I said. Oooooh!!!...that he does not want!! Will blow his image and plans for ministry!! But he thinks he's so right with God but is afraid of what his pastor will do????!!!!<BR>How much more deceived can H be???? The previous counselor from his denomination had told me to go to his pastor if H talks divorce....I did not because H was willing to do the therapy. But now that he quit therapy,<BR>do you think I should bring him to full accountability there?

Renae: You already know what is the right thing to do, don't you? Be strong...

Yes, Mariesue. Thank you.<P>Since H mentioned divorce last night for the 4th time in the last couple weeks... it is time for legal help. <P>

Go now to the attorney. Go to more than one. Many of them do free initial consultations. You might also ask around for some referrals.<P>And as for talking to husband's pastor, he will find out whether you talk or not. It might be good for the man to hear your side of the story.<P>Husband has mentioned the divorce. His image is not your responsibility. Don't trash it but you don't need to polish it either.

When H got home tonight, he was verbally bullying me & I verbalized that I would not accept such treatment. I told him to talk to me respectfully. He said God gives him the right to treat me this way.... I said no He doesn't!.....back & forth it went....He got worse and worse...shoving, he put my arm behind my back and wrestled me to the floor...I got away from him, grabbed my purse (which was by the door; 1st time he hasn't blocked or stopped me) and did what I've never had the courage to do before...I drove right to the police station and talked to an officer. He gave me the phone number to get an order of protection. He said if I had come in with bruises, then they would put H in jail tonight and he'd have to go to anger management, etc. and would not be allowed back in the home. It is just crazy that I have to let H bruise me up good first before they'll write up a report and do something ????!!!!!UGH!!!!!!<BR>Just got back home.... H has cooled off and nowhere near me. I think I'll get that order thing going... get him out of here. <P>Karenna? Are you here? When you go to court to ask for such an order...what do I have to say? ....does a judge ever refuse to grant it? <P>I wish you could have heard him snarling at me that God gives him the right to treat me like this. I told him headship is for protecting and you're not protecting me!!!!!...... I hold back no truth from him anymore... Even when he demanded angrily, ready to shove me into a chair, I resisted and told him I can be asked to sit but not demanded.... <P>I asked him what he's so upset about and to just talk about it, but he was more interested in "control" over me, bullying instead. (His elderly aunt died Sat. night, so my guess is, he was going to talk to me about the funeral coming up, but instead he kept on harrassing me.) <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited September 18, 2001).]

Going to go file for the order of protection...<BR>This kids and I need peace and H needs to get his own consequences. In the past, he may have had the excuse of ignorance, not knowing what a normal life and relationship is, not knowing theological truth, etc. But he's heard from therapists, etc. now and has refused to change and refuses to continue therapy. Now with this latest abusive incident, it is right to do this order and get him out of here. June Hunt's tape set on wife abuse has really hit me that that it is right to report him, leave, or whatever.<P>Since Monday, the oldest daughter who witnessed the abuse has been sicker and more stressed. I can't let her witness any more of H's ways toward me. Need to get him out!

In California you wouldn't have needed bruises to get him arrested.<P>Why didn't you get the temporary restraing order two days ago? There is a time limit. 30 days in CA. <P>Did you get it today? Get yourself into the battered women's shelter until law enforcement serves him with a kick-out order. They can help you get any more temporary orders you need. <P>AFTER you get the temporary restraining orders take your little tushy into a real attorney's office and get going on making it real.

Thursday our schedule got messed up so that I was unable to go to authorities as I had planned. Friday a.m. I was shocked to find bruises on myself from Monday night's incident with H. I wondered if I should go back and show them to the police. First I had to go to H's aunt's funeral and realized for the first time how much grief H is in over this loss....I started to think of how his abuse Monday was probably due to this fresh grief (he has never been able to handle grief). The answer of course is him learning how to resolve grief & all negative emotions without misdirecting it as abuse toward me. After the funeral I picked up the papers for the Order of Protection and reviewed them Saturday a.m.... Next, the therapist called and talked a long time with me. She said there is something about H & me that they can't get off their hearts (more than other clients). She said the OFP will only drive H's revengeful nature and current "give up" stance, to divorce and we want to drive him toward relationship.....she wants me to show her my bruises, even take picture for the police, but she believes I need to first make one last plea for building relationship with H before I go to the authorities. We discussed the content of a letter, which I'm currently composing and she will review before I give to H. If he disregards this letter, then I have no other alternative but go to the authorities. Ok, I will try.<BR>I feel so torn between what each of our family members needs, and if I do the order none of these needs will be met! Yet the abuse/neglect going on is horrible too! .... this is so complicated! Your prayers are needed. Thanks! I'm hurting & so are the kids.<BR>

Woke this a.m., with that terrible emptiness. I tried to write that letter but feel frustrated with it and the fact that she's stalling me! I just don't see the hope for him anymore that she does. She acts like my strength with him on Monday was a good START!!!! I told her even with previous counselors and before that I have been strong and it does no good, I can't fix him, he doesn't want to grow, he has no ability to do "relationship" but only knows control. UGH!!!!

Enough...can't do anymore on the letter...so I'll just e-mail it to the therapist and let her figure it out...it's her idea anyway! <P>She had her chance to deal with H when he was coming to therapy & she can see how he is! Why is she stalling me on the OFP?? She mentioned having compassion...hey I've been there, done that.<BR>Sure his aunt died & he's in alot of grief right now, but that is no excuse for the abuse he projected on me! I have been thru this mercy mindset thru years of him grieving and I've taken abuse with every death....this is enough.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited September 24, 2001).]

No one on this earth is going to care more about your well-being and future than you do. Betcha your bruises are gone and you never did get the protective order! Why do I even bother reading any more?<P>Maybe there is something in this relationship that YOU are supposed to learn. Is that the thing that keeps sucking you back down? I can respect that. <P>I CANNOT respect the fact that you have now failed to protect your children. Witnessing an abusive relationship like this is CHILD ABUSE. Children have been forceably removed from their homes for cases less severe than this. <P>Nor can I respect the fact that you are using your entire power to resist learning what it is you were put here to learn.<P>Or are you even telling the truth?<P>Do you get a kick out of swindling the MB boards and getting sympathy? <P>Are you secretly laughing at us behind your screen with every prayer request?<P>If I hadn't read every single word you have posted I would have thought it was a fraud. Unfortunately I am afraid that you are all too real. All too frightened of yourself. All too hesitant, ambivalent, two-minded and two-faced.<P>God has told you. <P>Have you listened?<P>"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you NOT to be? You are a child of God. Your 'playing small' doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And as we let out light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."<P>Nelson Mandela,<BR>from his 1994 inaugural speech.<BR><P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

I admire your courage, Karenna. I keep reading, but have unfortunately given up posting to Renae, even though I care. <P>Just like your signature line: "A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us."<P>Thank you.

There are two sides of this coin:<BR>self protection and bringing about God's higher purpose.<BR>Both are important, but the second more so right now.<P>[censored] and other men decide to change when the wife leaves, but my H is a different cookie. All he's thinking now is how he hates me being stronger than ever in recent weeks, so he's currently throwing his theology against divorce out the window, and justifying divorce so he can go find a woman who he can emotionally dominate and get what he wants without having to work at relationship, and he won't have to change his abusive ways! So, the position I have to take now, though I would very much like to have peace and safety, is telling him firmly that he has no Biblical grounds for divorce and his only choice now is to face his problem and grow, not become hard-hearted and turn to divorce in order to feed his immature flesh! I'm telling him the consequences for all of us that will result if he chooses that route! The letter will tell him that I have bruises and the police can arrest him now and I can file with the court to kick him out.....<BR>will he live at the other house and get therapy & become responsible or should I turn him in now? <P> If I leave before giving this letter, it will be like feeding him to the enemy pulling him to evil. <P>This is a tough situation. Many things I can't report on this board and many threads are still be woven in God's hands.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited September 25, 2001).]

H came to me before 2 p.m. today & noticed I looked serious/sad. I felt the pressure in my soul saying, this is the time...go ahead, take your letter and confront him. It's been a week....see if he will repent, see how he responds. <P>We had a half hour but he wanted me to "get to the point" ..so I held the letter in my hand but spoke from my heart.<P>I told him how much I have desired to have a deeply loving relationship with him. No response. I told him he works all the time and this doesn't work for us. No response.<P>I told him since Monday's incident, how low I have been and wondered if he would admit that how he treated me was wrong and repent. He denied & accused me of being at fault, so I showed him my bruises. He said I had just fallen, that he hadn't done it. <P>I then told him what really happened and that I had gone to the police; if I had shown them my bruises, he would have been arrested. He shrugged it off saying that isn't so. I told him the officer said I could even have him kicked out of the home for the kinds of behaviors he has done against me. Again, he was unrepentant. <P>I said I came to find out if you want to leave voluntarily and get help for yourself and repent to me or if you want me to turn you in to the authorities. <P>On his way out the door, he accused me of just wanting to attack him and argue about something when he's been so nice to me today. He yelled out..YOu're so argumentative!! (wanting our daughter to hear and believe that indeed I had been the bad person)<P>So, friends, I have again gotten proof for the millionth time that this man will justify himself and put me down any chance he can. He is not the Christian he claims to be. I felt shook up about all of this. I have so patiently tried to get him helped to a healthy life for him and marriage for us. But there is nothing else I can do now. <P>I tried to contact the therapist to tell her what happened today but I could not reach her, but it is time now to file the OFP. <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited September 25, 2001).]

Tonight he came home and told me he's upset that I wrecked his whole day by calling him down this afternoon. He lost motivation for the day. He's entirely into his own world!<BR>Really sad.

Renae:<P>I have been reading your posts and those of others to you on the various strands. I completely understand Karenna's frustration with you. I also do understand how tough it is to get out when you really believe marriage is holy and should be forever.<P>Will you please read what I have to say and then respond to each point? Many people have posted to you and you don't respond directly to their questions/comments. Will you please respond point by point to what I'm saying so I and others can truly helpyou?<P>1) Contact your local domestic violence program within the next 24 hours with NO EXCUSES and make arrangements to go there. They can help you with every step of the way and will respect your religious beliefs.<P>2) Please contact an attorney within 24 hours and make an appointment for an initial consultation. The kind folks at the domestic violence program will help you do this, but you can also do this on your own.<P>3) Forget your therapist. I know this sounds harsh, but you need to take care of yourself and your children, and this is truly not the couple to help you on your path. Don't fall for the line that therapists who don't belong to your church will mess you up, give you ungodly advice, etc. It's not true. Period. The domestic violence program will help you with this, also, if you go there.<P>4) Do NOT try to negotiate with hubby, about property division or anything else. It will do no good and may harm you, at least emotionally. Don't argue, discuss, or mess with him. He is an abuser. He cannot change. I know what I'm talking about here; I used to work in a shelter for battered women. I'll say it again: this man cannot change. <P>If you only do #1, that'll be enough to get you on the right path. There are a lot of people to help you, Renae, and some of us, including me, have been praying for you, but we can't MAKE you save yourself, and we can't save you. God has been reaching out to you already to try to help you get away from the evil in your household. Don't keep making excuses to him.<P>I promise, if you get help and get away from your H., we will be here for you and will be sympathetic and supportive--maybe even more so. If you don't, most of us will be forced to give up. <P>Please post again when you have taken any of the steps above. I expect to hear from you within 48 hours. Sorry to sound so tough, but you don't seem to follow mere suggestions. Tell us SPECIFICALLY what you have done in regards to EACH of points above.<P>Yours in Christ,<BR>belle

Just need to tell you I had an entirely unusual hour with H this morning. I know God gave me the power and words to speak forth goodness, to address the screwed up thinking in his head, etc. Suddenly he quit verbally attacking, sat down, hung his head, listening intently, not interrupting...until my last words were said. This is rare that he'd listen to all of this...it is his last chance. The therapist wrote that she is behind this 100%...before I'd file the OFP.<P>I know abusers don't change. But this one, says the therapist, has a chance...<BR>some of his abusiveness is due to unresolved grief and exhaustion from a terrible war of circumstances (lasted for years) that he's just finished fighting through, ending about 2 weeks ago. This is his time to be confronted with goodness & a new course we can take in life....The therapist is behind this 100%....<P>He was in such a FIGHT mode because he had to be to survive the circumstances. But if his choice now is to reject turning our life around, then, the OFP is coming.... Currently I'm getting it written, digging thru my file and this website for dates & events, getting a consultation with an attorney...just to be prepared. I need to get new tires on my car now before he objects to paying for them.<P>Some questions I put straight to him, he hasn't answered yet...and I've got more to pin him down on. If he continues to self-justify with lies, when confronted with truth about these things, then we're done.<BR>I can't have honest relationship with a liar or a man who refuses to stop abusing. <P>Thanks to you all for caring, and holding up the standard of decency. As you know, victims of abuse lose sight of normal, and you have been there to remind me. I will and am going forward, friends, though I am still very fearful....<BR>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited September 27, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited September 27, 2001).]

Renae:<P>Why didn't you respond to Belle's post as she requested?<BR>I can understand her's & Karenna's frustration with you because you won't listen to anyone (including me!)<P>I'm with Belle, "forget the Therapist"..........<P>What kind of a hold does your h have on you?<P>[censored]