</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does the Bible contradict itself about divorce? No. Even though many godly Bible students disagree on what the Bible teaches about divorce and remarriage, I believe the Scriptures offer guidelines for those contemplating divorce and remarriage. Even in cases of physical abuse, which has become such a troubling issue in our day, I am convinced that the Bible gives us answers </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Stephan for pointing that out. I too struggled with *divorce* from a spiritual perspective. I found DivorceCare. It was a wonderful program that focused not only on the issues of divorce, but also looked at my spritual health along with the rest of me going through all this. www.divorcecare.com is an excellent start (or even if you still have questions *after* the divorce). Another one for those who still have questions.

One last thought though for those struggling spiritually...Divorce is an incident. It's not a permanent sin. God forgives, and when he forgives, He forgets. He is not going to judge you on something that He's already forgiven you for. "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come" 2 Corinthians 5:17

Hey Love My Ex

Dittos on that. Marriage is under siege. When is the last time you read an article or saw something on TV where the merits of a life-long committed marriage were glorified. Was it perhaps "the Waltons" back in the 1970s? Well ok, I guess there have been other such programs but increasingly fewer all the same.

Divorce is quite often just a runaway. If marriage partners would truly take equal responsbility for the problems in their marriage, how can there be so many divorces? Isn`t it so that most people enter marriage emotionally injured. They experience emotional trauma in their past life and never resolve it. Marriage acts then like test crucible for some very powerful personal chemical reactions. I think it`s sad that people just give up when the chemical reaction begins to churn too much. They forget to add Love from Above to the mix. Many want perfection today and beieve they will find it elsewhere. How often do they find it?

Standing in Finland

I totally hear you StandinginFinland!

Elan said, "Sitting back and really thinking about why Ruby1's post brought those feelings is the first step towards understanding your own feelings and actions in your marriage."

Actually, it goes beyond my own pain and marriage. It goes far beyond to my parent's divorce. To my friend's parent's divorce. It goes to my friend's and prayer partners who have either divorced or been divorced. It goes far beyond just MY marriage. Marriage is not an individual thing. It affects MANY people. Marriage is the very foundation of societies. Without marriage, children grow up often in unstable homes. In the future, they often divorce because they did not witness a lasting marriage.

Marriage afects the parents of the spouses and the friends... the people who were there on the wedding day and heard the vows. It affects the Church. Heck, when more people in the churches are divorcing, what does that say? When even Christians can't together work out there problems??

Divorce says that someone is "unchangeable." Whether he is abusive, adulterous, or just a plain unlikeable person... divorce says "you will never change." Now, I know there are cases in which there is extreme and unrepentant abuse and adultery, etc. (I experienced neither), but there are also cases in which couples fight and it is called "abuse" or in which a man looks at a woman and it is called "emotional adultery." Etc.

I see that more people are "happy" when their marriage ends. And I can't help but ask why? How can you be happy that your spouse didn't change? How can you be happy that he continues to sin in whatever way he is? Happy because he is abusive and adulterous? We are not responsible for other's actions, but I simply cannot understand how divorce can make anyone "happy." It is death. The death of a marriage where two people once PROMISED to love "til death."

So, yes, of course, this brings out my own feelings because of my own divorce, but it goes FAR beyond just MY divorce. It's the people in here that I talk to who are grieving because their spouse has divorced them. It's the women I pray with who love their husbands yet their husbands are divorcing them. It's the spouses whose other spouse is being told "move on" or "she/he'll never change" instead of encouraging reconciliation because it is possible in many, many marriages. It's the children who witness it all. It's the parents who have to watch it all, watch their grandchildren be removed from their lives, watch their children hurt. It's all of us.

Divorce is, as said, WAY TOO EASY to obtain. Marriage is not upheld as it should be by the majority of people and I say this as being witness to women whose husbands are divorcing them and being witness to men whose wives are divorcing them. Their are all sorts of excuses and justifications and so the court says, "oh, you have irreconcilable differences." Do you know how horrible I felt being a CHRISTIAN and saying that I couldn't work out my marriage problems?? What kind of hypocrite was I???

That convicted my greatly. I have sought recocniliation and still do. I don't care if it literally kills me. I would rather go to my grave fighting for my marriage, believing that God does and can heal and change, and knowing that I did all I could even though I know full well that I could find a "better" husband. I understand my feelings and actions very well in my marriage as I have reflected on them all this year. I could give you a list of all the things we both did wrong. Healing is definitely a process and I am certainly not even close to being thoroughly healed.

But I do grieve for all the marriages that have ended. I have several prayer partners going through divorces plus I come here sometimes, and often, I feel as if divorce hangs like an unwelcomed weight on my shoulders. I have seen the sorrows of divorce and I never want to be one who partakes in the divorce of another marriage.

Divorce actually is not called a sin in the Bible. However, lack of faith is. Unforgiveness is called sin. Anger, hate, adultery--- all sins. Abuse, slander, strife-- sins. It is not the divorce itself that is necessarily sin. Divorce was actually "granted" because of man's hard hearts. The hardness... that is the sin. The hate, the slander, the unforgiveness... those are the sins that lead to divorce.

If two people both submitted to God and... both forgave each other, both loved each other, both obeyed the Lord in their lives and treated each other Biblically... there would be no need for divorce.

Divorce grieves the Lord. He hates it. I, too, hate divorce... with a passion. I have seen what it does to people's lives and it is ugly, ugly, ugly. No, not unforgiveable. No sin is unforgiveable. However, consequences often last a lifetime. They even get passed on generation to generation.

I am a teacher and have rarely ever seen a child in a divorced home who was stable and emotionally healthy. Nor have I met an adult who didn't have some sort of loss due to a parent's divorce, usually they don't face it until they are adults. Divorce has lasting consequences that affect many, many people.

Yes, it is forgiveable but we should not go into it with that mindset thinking, "Well, I know it's wrong but God will forgive."

Anyways.. I am totally rambling now! I am not saying this with anger at all though.. just so you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Only with a sort of passion I guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God bless.

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

Great Post LoveMyEx!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If two people both submitted to God and... both forgave each other, both loved each other, both obeyed the Lord in their lives and treated each other Biblically... there would be no need for divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad isn't it? If TWO people both .... You or I are not enough you know. Our ex's have to be involved also. That itself is so very sad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, it is forgiveable but we should not go into it with that mindset thinking, "Well, I know it's wrong but God will forgive."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me -- I was FAR from being *accepting* with the divorce. After beating myself up for years (since the split almost 5 years ago) .. it was my minister that convinced me that God will forgive. It wasn't as easy as saying, "I know it's wrong but God will forgive." That's where DivorceCare came in. Divorce is so many pieces -- it's the kids, the emotions, the physical as well as the spiritual. For those of us who do believe in God, the spiritual rips us apart. We REMEMBER those vows, we LIVED those vows, except our significant others didn't. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see that more people are "happy" when their marriage ends. And I can't help but ask why? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many times, we, as the observers, are looking from the outside in. We can't see their hearts, we can't see the pain they have inside. Though it may *appear* that they are *happy* -- don't count on it.

Divorce is NOT an easy road, and it's one that way too many of us have to travel. Times have changed, society has changed, and yes, people just don't CARE anymore. Working on a relationship is far harder than walking away and starting a new one (though many of us on this side don't want to start new ones and feel that's just as hard). Regardless -- this is the road we are on and it's one that we have to navigate in the best way that we can. Is it fair? NO Is it just? NO Did we want it? NO

Did I want my marriage to work? YES!!!!I wanted my marriage, but I also knew that there had to be MAJOR changes for us to grow closer rather than farther apart. We sought counselling, but he heard what he didn't want to hear, walked out, never to return. I continued with counselling and seeking how I could turn my marriage around)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Divorce says that someone is "unchangeable." Whether he is abusive, adulterous, or just a plain unlikeable person... divorce says "you will never change." Now, I know there are cases in which there is extreme and unrepentant abuse and adultery, etc. (I experienced neither), but there are also cases in which couples fight and it is called "abuse" or in which a man looks at a woman and it is called "emotional adultery." Etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all experience different things. We all respond to different things based on our own experiences. I most certainly respond differently had my ex not been abusive and continued aldultery (which I found out AFTER the divorce). I don't know, can't say what I would have done because I so loved this man. What I didn't do though is value MYSELF. I did everything for this man and for my kids. That in itself is not a bad thing, but Elan totally disappeared through the years.

It too am rambling...so I apologize. Seems that we agree on the same thing.....Divorce affects EVERYONE and not just a few. Divorce affected my ex. His parents were divorced -- something he never dealt with. Years after, actually just 3 years ago I found out that his mother was beaten by her husband, he broke her arm after he broke into the house and raped her. For 20 years of marriage I was told that she "ran around and slept with all different men". Two days after he broke her arm (she had a restraining order on him) she relinquished custody of the three kids. This was over 40 years ago and hidden. Yes -- that divorce and all it's lies through all the years affected everyone. Effected my ex to the point where he repeated almost everything (except hitting me). He learned to hone those abusive skills so that he actually had a wife for 10 years longer than his own father. He is now living with a woman who his children hate (he hated his own stepmother )...... My children are living the very same things that he vowed he would NEVER have his children experience. (Well need I mention what he really *thinks* of vows??? ha ha)

So, the post: "Those who rush to divorce...." Was it really rushing? Maybe it's been brewing for years and one partner just hits this breaking point. (This topic is also covered in DivorceCare -- rushing to divorce) Divorce does affect all those involved...but it's not something that's going to be erradicated overnight. I too speak with passion about issues that hit me to the core. Now I try to be more observant and listen to the message that God is trying to tell me when I get worked up over posts or life incidents.

Again....thanks for bringing this up and discussing some very great points. God bless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Elan, good post... sad, but good and insightful words. Yes, it does take two to reconcile and sometimes a person's heart is so hardened that it is just about impossible.

The saddest things are definitely the consequences that go through the generations, just like with your husband. And the sad thing is the path of destruction your husband is on. I mean, truly it is a spiritual WAR and satan has so decieved your husband, that your husband is hardened and lost. What will his outcome be? I mean, when all is said and done and he is on his deathbed.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It all makes me sad. The ones who have been hurt... I am sad for them. I am sad too for the ones who do the hurting. I know that it is only by the grace of God that I am not an abuser or adulterer, etc. I know that I am just as capable of those sins as we all are. None of us is without sin and my heart breaks for those who have been deceived to the point that they have destroyed other's and/or thier own lives often by committing vile sins against people. Satan just destroys and destroys, to the point of others taking lives, either their own or another person's. Or taking someone's sanity or peace of mind, through abuse, rape, etc.

That is alot why divorce grieves me. I know it is the result of hardness of heart. I am grieved that my husband has hardened his heart and that what is good is called "evil" and what is evil is called "good." That is how Satan works. I can't imagine the heart of God at the sin of His own beloved creation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I can't imagine the pain when Jesus was hung on the cross at the hands of the people He loved.

It is all a war. Satan wants to take down as many children, men, and women as he can and one very effective way of doing that is by destroying marriages. It breaks my heart.

I have several prayer partners who are either going through or have gone through divorce (although one of them remarried her husband! Wow! But it is by no means easy). And my heart just breaks for them. I have two friends, both Christians and both divorcing their spouses with the claims of "he'll/she'll never change" and "I will be happier", etc. But what about the kids. Will they be happier? What about the left spouse? Will he/she be happier? The in-laws, the friends, etc? Happier?

Many people divorce because they mistakenly believe that happiness is the utmost of importance. This is what my husband believed, but his "happiness" came at a very great cost in many lives.

Anyways, I wasn't really directing my comments to you or anyone in particular because I know there are situations like yours with unrepentant abuse, adultery, etc. And I can't imagine. Honestly, I can't. My husband did not abuse me or commit adultery.

This really isn't a direct response to your post but more thoughts/reflection after reading your post. They also aren't directed towards you or any particular person... only general thoughts about divorce in general.

Now that I'm totally downcast, God bless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LoveMyEx
I really appreciate your opinion and advice. I'm struggling through a separation right now not sure if it's going to end in divorce or reconciliation. I have thoughts and feelings that support both ends. Help!

Hi DazedandConfused,

I am so glad you addressed me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have such a desire to help marriages. I have prayed many a prayer that the Lord will use me in other's lives from what I have learned and experienced in my marriage/divorce.

I am sorry you are going through a separation. I understand how you can have thoughts/feelings on both divorce and reconciliation. I did too. It was really not until the separation that I began to really be convicted about God's will as far as marriage and divorce. But even after the divorce, although I was seeking reconciliation, I still had much fear and double-mindedness. Finally, I made a firm commitment, that even if it cost me dearly, I would seek reconciliation believing it to be God's will and believing that He is able to heal and restore even the most broken person and marriage.

Here are two websites that helped me alot. They are both marriage reconciliation sites. The couples who began them both were divorced. Both the wives' husbands had affairs. Both also are now remarried to their husbands and thier husbands are faithful and serving the Lord!

One is called Rejoice Ministries. www.rejoiceministries.com It kinda looks a little "cheeshiesh" but the people are soooooo sweet!! I have a couple of their books and tapes, and they truly love the Lord and each other. They have an email devotional that is very good.

The other ministry is Restore Ministries. It is www.restorem.org There are some powerful testimonies of restored marriages there. And the woman who started this ministry really helped me to see the wrong things I was doing and how I needed to change some things, etc.

I truly hope and pray that you do not go through divorce. I don't know your situation and what all is going on in your marriage or how bad it all is. But I do pray that God would heal the wounds that are there and also that whatever sins are being committed by you or your spouse (abuse, adultery, or just plain bitterness, anger, selfishness, etc, that they would be confessed and repented of so that you two can have the marriage God intended for you to have. God hates divorce because of what it does to people... to their hearts, minds, and souls. It is definitely the most painful thing I've been through, and for so many reasons and in so many ways. God intended for marriage to be a lifetime, but He also intends for us to love and respect one another. It is our sinful treatment of each other that hurts our marriages.

So I pray for you and your spouse and your marriage. I don't know if you know the Lord or not or anything else, but I am glad that I have the opportunity to share this with you. God is more than able to do a mighty and wonderful work in your lives! Cry out to Him and ask Him to guide you and help you. Please check out those websites. There are also some good books I could recommend, but will do so at another time if you are interested.

God bless you and may He give you wisdom and strength!

Love my Ex
I'm sorry to hear that your divorce has brought you so much grief. I hope you will overcome this soon. As implied in your name you probably still love your ex and that's why you are so upset.
I agree that divorce is not an easy decision because it affects more than just 2 people. Most importantly it affects our children. I took my vows very seriously and was commited to making my marriage work but you can do only so much by yourself. When I realized that my ex would never change I knew I had to get out of my marriage to reclaim my happiness, self esteem and the happiness of my child. My daughter is doing much better in school now and she is smiling again. I wish I didn't have to get a divorce but I am much happier since I divorced my husband. I wish you happiness as well.

I agree totally. In January of this year, I was 100% positive that a divorce was what I wanted, as some strange and also painful circumstances drove me to the arms of OM, and I filed. I soon discovered after my H moved out that being single was not what I thought. I figured it would be easy, since so many people do it every day. I discovered that everyone was hurting, especially my two sons, ages 10 and 7. My husband filed a cross petition for D against me in March, so there would be no chance that I could have "all the power to start and stop the procedings without him." I asked my husband to come home. It took some work, but he moved home in mid-April, and we began trying to reconcile our 13.5 year marriage. He was given orders to attend a 17 week school for the Army shortly thereafter, and left on May 14th, however, we never called off the legal stuff. We talk on the phone every day, and the kids and I were able to visit him over the July 4th holiday. For the last month, my husband has been telling me he now wants the divorce, and I am the one who desperately wants to save the marriage. I have made several mistakes over the last 14 years. I had three physical affairs, and one additional emotional affair. My husband has, too, had affairs. Despite all this, I still feel strongly that the relationship we have is, at the core, good and can be saved and made better.

I just wanted some support from those of you out there who have been in my shoes. I hear daily how, when he returns home, that he won't be returning "home", and how this is the way things are going to be. I have struggled to accept these words, but simply cannot. I've had a sense that God is my "little voice" that says "Don't give up". I realize that the uphill battle we would face together as a couple would be difficult, but I am willing to do the work rather than be alone knowing that I never really wanted to be with anyone else, I just wanted the caring, loving relationship we had before all this "tit for tat" activity started.

HELP! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hi Skippy, I am sorry to hear of your situation. Mine was similar except no affairs on either of our part. But I was the one who first "wanted" divorce. I didn't really, but yet felt I was in a marriage that was a "mistake" and was never going to be good, etc. Now I look back and am just sickened at how I saw it that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It caused me to embitter my husband. No husband (or wife) wants to hear themselves called a "mistake." Anyways, by the end, it was my husband filing and me not wanting it at all. So I do relate to you in that aspect.

I would encourage you to visit www.restorem.org and www.rejoiceministries.org if you seriously are wanting help in restoring your marriage.

Nothing is impossible and I agree with you that your marriage can be saved and is, at the core, good and right.

I will add you to my marriage prayer list and truly hope and pray that God does restore your marriage. You acknowledge that it will be hard work, and yes, it will be, but you also realize that the work of saving it would be far better than the "work" of ending it. My prayers are with you and I truly do pray that you spend many, many more years of committed marriage with your husband!!

God bless.

LME,
Thanks so much for replying to me! I appreciate your insight. Right now, nothing can be done to move forward in either direction (staying or D); all we have until he returns home is to talk, and lately there hasn't been much good to come out of conversation. He still thinks that he has to get a different place right now, and that it's pretty much a "no go" as far as staying together, but as I said before, it didn't take me long to change my mind. I just worry about our children, having to go through all this again, especially right after the long-awaited return of their Dad after 4 months away with the Army.

We had a positive conversation this morning, in which I told my H that I wasn't going to pressure him to do ANYTHING, but that he is always welcome in our home, including to live there. I added that I knew this is what he felt like he had to do right now, but that we could just change the D to a legal separation, as we didn't really have much time after reconciling this spring before he left for 4 months. He didn't say no, so I guess that is a step.

I have checked out the rejoice ministries website, but not the second one you mentioned. I will peruse it if I have time in the next few days. I sometimes find it difficult being strong for the kids, but know it is what I must do to keep things smooth. I am attending an Alpha class at our local Methodist Church, and hopefully my H will go, too, when he gets back, but I won't make him. I pray each day that God will soften my husband's walls that are around his heart, and that his resentment will be replaced with new happiness and joy. He has adamantly refused to go to counseling at this time, but I hope one day that too will change.

Time will tell, I guess....I just wish I were a more patient person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm just amused when I occassionally hear that my x feels like I rushed into divorce. It must have felt that way to her because after her promise of NC, she got so clever... whoddda thunk that one day it would all end and I'd actually follow through on the flip side of the No Contact promise...
- No Contact with lover = Continued reconciliation
- Contact with lover = no more reconciliation and immediate moves to divorce.

Whodda thunk? They can call that bluff, but I'm sure it surprises the hell out of them when we don't back down... after all in the fog of their universe we're always going to be there - forever unchanging - with our naive trust and love.

My name is Eric. And my move to divorce was methodological, planned, layered with contingencies, and ultimately one of the few good decisions I made post-DDay. In hindsight, I can see where God looked out for me through excellent friends and elegant guidance. I'm thankful for that. No longer "What happened!?!" but time for "What now?"

Hi Skippie,
Well, nothing you have said is surprising. What you need to be aware of is that you have an enemy... Satan. His schemes are similar... nothing new. Almost every person who seeks divorce will say "I made a mistake." Doesn't matter how long they've been married or what's gone on... that is a similar comment. They will also almost all say that their spouse will "never change." They also believe that they will be happier with a divorce. Satan often tells us these things, we believe them, we divorce. And he is happy for having destroyed yet another marriage.

So your husband's reaction does not surprise me. His heart is hard right now. Anything you say or do will not be received well... no matter how good, kind, or innocent it might be. His mind is probably set on leaving and in fact, when you do good, it will probably just make him angry.

BUT... just as you "changed your mind," so can he. You really need to make this a matter of serious prayer. Ask others at your church to pray with you. Also repent of any of your own sins that you mentioned. Truly grieve over them and see them for what they are... sin. And then ask the Lord to forgive you and to help your husband to forgive. Also, ask God to help you to forgive your husband. When your heart has fully forgiven and is right, then you will be able to bear your husband's coldness right now and you will be able to do right rather than react with hurt or angry emotions.

Not sure if that makes sense.

You have very good reason to worry about your children. But I think a divorce would be far more damaging to them than a reconciled marriage. Studies show that divorce greatly and negatively affects ALL children. Sometimes those affects aren't seen until adulthood. Obviously, though, a marriage in which a parent is adulterous also is not good at all. The best thing for them would be a committed marriage in which their parents are loving and faithful. Obviously, you have a ways to go to that, but it is not impossible!! The work to get there would be worth it. And that's why it's so important to be in prayer too because I don't think this will happen with just your own efforts, esp. since your husband's heart is hardened towards it. Pray for your children and ask the Lord to protect their hearts during this time.

I think what you told your husband about being wecomed at home is very good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> As for counseling, it might actually be good he's not going. Counseling is not a "cure-all" and often can cause more harm than good. In fact, I'd say that our few attempts at counseling caused more harm. So, be very discerning in getting counseling. Make sure it is someone Biblical who will support your marriage and reconciliation.

Both of the couples who began those websites I gave you were divorced for 2 years after the husband's adultery. BOTH women were told to divorce the husband and were told the husbands would "never" change, that they deserved better, yada, yada. Even pastors told them this. Well, lo and behold, the women didn't listen, and instead they prayed and sought God and believed their marriage could be healed. It wasn't easy, but they have since been remarried for MANY years now and both husbands are actively involved in their ministries. When you read what they write, well... they certainly don't sound like men who once had affairs and left their wives!

At the Rejoice Ministries website, sign up for the free devotional ("Charlyne Cares"). It is emailed to you and very good and supportive. It's gotten me through many days! At the other site, read some of the testimonies including theirs (I think it's under a heading called "About Us.") There are stories of restored marriages in there that will just amaze you!

Well, may God be with you as you chose this path. It is truly the path less taken (reconciliation) but I believe God will bless you for staying committed to your marriage. He will also work in you to change you and cause you to grow as you do this difficult thing. I pray that your husband's heart will be softened and turned back to you and that God will really bring the two of you back together... committed and changed and new.

God bless!