There was some definite miscommunication about what I was trying to say in my post and how Lovemyex has read the post. Yes, I was burned... yes I have and continue to sin. That was and is not the jest of my post.

What I was and am trying to say is that DESERVING to me means that it is an innate right of the person. Saying you deserve food, air, and freedom... THOSE are things I think you deserve. Saying you deserve to live unmolested... that is something you deserve. To say that you DESERVE for your ex wife whom you betrayed to sit down with you because you wrote her an unsolicited letter is what I DON'T believe you deserve. That is what I was talking about. To say that you DESERVE her love and forgiveness is YES 'LOVEMYEX' something that must be earned.

IT is for HER that she forgives... NOT for him. HE will either be forgiven by GOD or not. HE DOESN'T DESERVE forgiveness from God... it is GOD'S choice looking at his heart and actions whether HE (God) truly feels that forgiveness is warrented. AT least that is how I feel forgiveness works. You may feel differently. I was not saying anything about his sincerity about his past choices and regret. What I am saying is that just because you say "Sorry" doesn't mean that you get everything back the way you want it.

I think that perhaps the difficulty in how you perceive forgiveness and deserving is what is causing your ire towards me. I think that very few things in life or afterlife are DESERVED. I mentioned a few, FOOD, WATER, SHELTER, LIVING unmolested, choice, etc. Those things are there and basic for everyone. Those are DESERVED in my opinion. But to sit and 'force in essence' someone to 'sit down' because you had a past and have written a letter is NOT something that is deserved, again in my opinion. To get another chance is NOT deserved. To rip the heart out of another person who trusts you beyond measure then just say, "Sorry" doesn't mean that the pain and suffering of the person doesn't change that person... and that person's desires and trust.

I am very glad for Whatalife's new choices and his way of living at this time. FOR HIM. But his ex has moved on. He is upset because she has chosen the 'next man' instead of dating around??? He is upset because she won't 'sit down' with him, even though he made all the choices that put him on this road, affair, divorce, etc. NOW he wants to be reasonable... NOW he wants to be fair... NOW he wants to plead insanity... NOW he wants to plead forgiveness... NOW he wants to plead Christianity...

As I said before... God loves him and will forgive him and bless him according to how he (God) views his heart and actions. That is my view. He has set himself on a road with his past, and there will forever be barriers put in his path because of his prior choices, even if it is only the remorse within his own mind. I do not purport to know anything of God's mind. I know that he loves us unconditionally and will choose to help/hinder us as he sees fit given his plan for us. He will allow us to fail or help us succeed according to his plan and our choices. We will always DESERVE the possibility of forgiveness... he has said this. But I DON'T believe that forgiveness comes in the form of a perfect and blessed life. Sometimes the biggest blessing we can ever have is hardship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She did not accept your desire to reconcile but you did the right thing and God will bless you and honor that. One of the hardest things is accepting that we can't convince someone to do something right or that we desire. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOVEMYEX... did you read his first post. He chose to change AFTER she was alread remarried. She was betrayed... first thing that Jesus says is OK (NOT REQUIRED) for divorce. Then she was abandoned (DIVORCED) by her husband, second thing in the sctriptures stating it is OK to divorce. She then meets someone she trusts, loves, and married that man. NOW you say that what she has done is 'wrong' in essence. One of the hardest things is accepting that we can't convince someone to do something right or that we desire. .

He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

I say unto you (v. 9); and it agrees with what he said before (ch. 5:32); there it was said in preaching, here in dispute, but it is the same, for Christ is constant to himself. Now, in both these places, (1.) He allows divorce, in case of adultery; the reason of the law against divorce being this, They two shall be one flesh. If the wife (or husband in whatalife's situation) plays the harlot, and make her/himself one flesh with an adulterer, the reason of the law ceases, and so does the law. By the law of Moses adultery was punished with death, Deu. 22:22 . - Excerpt from http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commenta...c-com.cgi?boo k=mt&chapter=19#Mt19_9

The thrust of my post is that, Whatalife might be saved... I actually don't think anyone is saved or lost at all, because there is always what we do now and in a few moments that can change that status... But his choices as this time have no bearing upon his ex wife. He doesn't DESERVE anything from her. Should she freely give him something from the kindness of her soul and choice, then he should count himself lucky. But he gave up any right or hold on her when he betrayed and divorced her. Had they worked on their marriage rather than torn it apart, then perhaps his 'rights' would have been restored in some way. But I hardly think writing a letter saying "I have changed" counts as redeeming himself in her eyes. In fact, I can almost guarantee it doesn't. Because if it DID... she would have said something to him after she received it.

I do not judge, I know that I am far from perfect. I live my life as well as I can and not nerely as well as I would like. I try and fail daily, hourly, minute my minute. I work to be better, and hope that somewhere in the mix, God is feeling more positive than negative about my heart and actions. I don't deserve anything more than Whatalife does being the BS rather than the WS. I deserve the basics, just like everyone... what I receive above that is what I earn through love, honor, actions, trust, respect, etc.

<small>[ September 14, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

whatalife,

i suggest individual counseling to learn to cope. I read and interpret that you have poor coping skills to move on.

Your coping skills are not allowing you to take responsibility for your actions. In this case, the words are not matching your expectations. You might be able to verbalize the words, but your emotions still are unable to accept the reality of the your X and her desires and her actions. She does not need to fulfill any of your expectations, regardless of your public opinion survey.

Another problem I am reading is that you are "teaching" others not to make your mistake. The mistakes everyone makes are personal. To say a blanket statement that other's should not do what you did because your situation did not turn out well, is quite a bit presumptuous. . .

What you need to do is LEARN from your mistake, and that learning involves understanding yourself, and WHY you, as an individual, are having a hard time accepting responsibility for the situation, and what you can do to prevent the same mistake from happening again. Accepting means that if you hurt someone else, with words or deeds, than you must accept their reactions as valid, and their reactions belong to them, not you. You do not control them, and you need to respect them as individuals, different from you, and different in reaction and expectations than you. . . .

Looking in the bible is not going to give you answers if you have been looking there and haven't been able to find your answers so far. Individual counseling will help you uncover why you might be stuck, and how you might take responsibility for your situation, and how you might be able to show some respect for other people's feelings and reactions.

wiftty

<small>[ September 14, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

WhataLife, you said, "Any cheater that did it and is truly sorry will actually be hit with more sorrow and pain than the one cheated on. The reason, because the ones cheated can stay on their high horse and look down on the other."

There was no adultery by either my husband or I in the marriage, but I would tend to agree with you on this simply from what I've read in the forums here. Granted, there is alot of pain and hurt by anyone who's been betrayed (abused, etc), BUT again, just as you said, we are ALL sinners. And I agree with you... ALL capable of even the worst sin.

Not only that, but we're all murderes and adulterers according to Jesus who, in the gospel, says that if you've even lusted after someone, you've committed adultery or if you've even hated someone, you've committed murder. His point is that NO ONE is righteous and good (or "deserving") and it is ONLY the blood of Christ that we are forgiven for our sins.

Anyways, I thought too of the adulterous woman who the men were going to stone and Jesus told them, "You who are without sin throw the first stone." One by one, they all walked away and Jesus told the lady that "neither do I condemn you." Then he told her to go and sin no more.

-------------------------------------------------

TO ALL--
As I said before, we all need to watch what we say. First of all, we do not personally know the people who are writing. We are not their judge. Secondly, I'd venture to say that very few in here are pastors or professional counselors and for that reason, we all need to give advice less liberally. Lastly, I agree with whatalife... I thought the same thing, that many in here sounded as if they were saying what they were saying because they were seeing it through bitter, hurt eyes (due to their own betrayals perhaps). We need to be cautious in what we say!!

Whatalife seemed to take it well, but honestly, I can't see how certain comments, even from the last post about his "poor coping skills" are helpful to him because it was OBVIOUS in his first post that he is remorseful, grieved, and he was freely confessing his sin! (although I still think a mistake to do so in any public forum where people are going to say whatever they want!)

By the way, whatalife, we ALL have "poor coping skills." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Ask any stable person how they "coped" with their loved one dying on Sept. 11. Ask any business man how his divorce affected him. We are ALL just people, none better than the other. I think Wifty ought to leave it to the counselors to tell someone they have "poor coping skills" because those will be the people offering help and compassion!

FC, please do not read my words as an "attack" on you personally. There are things you have said that are unBiblical and those are the things I will address in my reply to you. Internet communication tends to sound more harsh than it does gentle, and that is not my intent... so I apologize in advance for things that sound like affronts to you. I do think that there is still judging of this man in your words and that there is much unBiblical statements, which is why I am replying to what you said. God bless.

FC said, "To say that you DESERVE for your ex wife whom you betrayed to sit down with you because you wrote her an unsolicited letter is what I DON'T believe you deserve."

Thank goodness we don't always get what we "deserve" and even often get what we don't "deserve" like mercy, grace, forgivness, and kindness. Do any of us "deserve" mercy? Hardly! Now, obviously, he can't control his ex-wife... but I really do not think it's an issue of deserving or not deserving nor do I think he was in any way speaking in arrogance as if he thinks he deserves her reply. He is simply grieving because he had hope that she might reply. It's not about "deserving."

FC said, "IT is for HER that she forgives... NOT for him."

That is not how forgiveness works (in God's eyes). Did Jesus forgive us for himself?? No! He forgave us for our own sakes! We'd all be rotting in hell if He hadn't forgiven us. I don't always forgive someone because of what's in it for me. I forgive because 1) the Bible commands it and I fear the Lord and do not desire to disobey, 2) I love the person and know that by forgiving them, they will not bear the pain of my hatred or unforgiveness.

If we forgive simply because of what's in it for us, then we are indeed self-centered and have no love for another.

FC said, "HE will either be forgiven by GOD or not."

WHAT?! Sorry, HE IS FORGIVEN! You are exactly right... he does not deserve forgiveness! You don't deserve forgiveness for your laziness or your anger or your selfishness, either! God FORGIVES when we ask and repent. It is NOT about deserving it. It is not earned. It is freely given. You have said you are a Chrisitan, but saying that he might not be forgiven is one of the most unbiblical things I've ever heard.

God already made the choice to forgive him on the day that Jesus hung on the cross. We are not the generation of people living in the Old Testamnent! We are the people living AD (after Christ's birth).

So, yes, I do feel quite differently, but this is not a matter of my opinion. It is in the Bible. Please go see the books of Matthew, Luke, and John. Please read about Jesus and who he is and what he is like. ALL sinners are FORGIVEN the moment they ask the Lord with sincerity and repentance. It does not matter the gravity of the sin or even the lives hurt. ALL are forgiven when they sincerely seek forgiveness from the Lord. ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is what Christianity is all about!

You're right that you don't get everything back the way you want it. You might actually get everything back even better! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> God actually blesses us sinners! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I don't think thought that whatalife was asking for his wife back. He was expressing grief and sorrow and sharing the details with us.

You said, "To get another chance is NOT deserved." Right again! But thank goodness, out of people's love and forgiveness and God's love and mercy, we do get other chances. Although we shouldn't sin thinking, "Oh well, I'll get another chance." Obviously, there are consequences! Eat bad every day of your life and you're probably gonna die of heart disease. Etc. We are foolish people and make foolish choices. However, I am certainly glad that my parents gave me "other chances" that I didn't deserve and I'm glad that friends have given me other chances, etc.

You said, "To rip the heart out of another person who trusts you beyond measure then just say, "Sorry" doesn't mean that the pain and suffering of the person doesn't change that person... and that person's desires and trust."

Gee whiz! Does this man sound like he's just saying "Oh, oops, I'm sorry." Can you not read the sorrow in his words???? I don't think anyone thinks he's just gonna have this easy road or that she's going to trust him. No one has said that. But you are talking about his "apology" as if it's very trite and insincere. Would it be better if he burned at the stake in order for him to prove how sorry he is??

You said, "He is upset because she has chosen the 'next man' instead of dating around???"

Yah?? Is that so strange? He loves her, he is filled with sorrow over his sin, and she was his WIFE!! I would think something was wrong with him if he wasn't upset! If he wasn't upset, then I'd question his love for her.

You said, "there will forever be barriers put in his path because of his prior choices."

Hogwash! This is NOT Biblical.

You said, "We will always DESERVE the possibility of forgiveness... he has said this."

He has??? Again, I am not sure where you are getting this from, and it's not an affront to you personally, but these things you are saying publically here are not Biblical! God says quite the opposite. We, in fact, DON'T deserve his forgiveness. That is what should make us so grateful! We are ALL offered it freely, but none of us deserves it.

You said, "I DON'T believe that forgiveness comes in the form of a perfect and blessed life."

I don't hear anyone saying this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said, "NOW you say that what she has done is 'wrong' in essence."

The only think I have said that she is doing "wrong" (if she is doing it... I don't know her and made this clear) is not forgiving him. The Bible says that God will NOT forgive us if we don't forgive each other. That is why it is wrong. If she does not forgive her husband, God will not forgive her for her unforgiveness. She is basically saying he's too "bad" to forgive, as if she is better. That's what unforgiveness is all about... pride... thinking that we are better than the other person and they don't "deserve" to be forgiven. I don't know her heart or anything about her, but if she isn't forgiving, then she is sinning.

Forgiveness doesn't mean they are going to get remarried and I haven't heard anyone (including myself) say that.

BTW, I think it's interesting how it's assumed that she's happy and found someone she can "trust", etc. We don't know that!! This is exactly what I mean about us talking like experts. She might be miserable right now! Many people remarry and 2nd marriages have a 60% and higher divorce rate! Her marriage might have been for wrong reasons. Who knows! Only God truly does, and maybe she does, but WE DON'T! So, let's not make such wide assumptions based on things we don't know.

You said, "I actually don't think anyone is saved or lost at all, because there is always what we do now and in a few moments that can change that status."

Well, maybe this explains where you are coming from. According to the Bible, if we "confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" and believe upon him and confess our sins, we are SAVED. And sins from that point on don't cause us to lose that salvation if it is true and genuine. We are still going to sin. Being a Christian doesn't take away our sin nature. But, we repent of those sins and we are forgiven and we keep pressing on, saved just as before.

You said, "But I hardly think writing a letter saying "I have changed" counts as redeeming himself in her eyes."

To this I say, you are not the judge over his life. You are not God who determines what "counts" and what doesn't count. You may have this opinion, but your opinion does not make it reality.

You said, "God is feeling more positive than negative about my heart and actions."

????? God isn't like that. He loves you DESPITE your actions. The only reason God becomes angry when we sin is because that sin hurts us, it separates us from Him, and it is disobedience... that hurts and separates. Read the Prodigal Father. That son took his inheritance and left... squandered all his father's money. Wanted to party and live the high life. Didn't give a rip about his dad who'd raised him. Finally, he's eating with pigs, completely broke and disgraced, so what does he do? He bows his head and heads home. What does the father do? RUNS to him and has a feast in his honor! He doesn't mention the sin, he doesn't ask where he's been. He LOVES him regardless! Now some of us are like the prodigal son's brother. He stood there, seething, and saying basically "that's not fair." He talked about how he's been the "good" son, did everything right. Why shouldn't he get the feast? Etc.

God LOVES all sinners. He delights in the repentance of sinners such as whatalife. He could very well restore their marriage. Who's to say that she's not miserable and that their marrige only lasts a few months and then he divorces her and she is down and out? No one knows obviously. But you cannot tell someone what the outcome of the rest of thier life is (as you did by saying there's going to be stones always on his path). God may not restore and God may. God's ways are higher than ours and we do not control Him.

As for your own personal feelings, God NEVER feels "negative" about you. He ALWAYS loves you. He does become angry when you sin. He is probably more angry at Satan than anyone else. But the moment you repent, He's right there. He never stops loving. If you had a child and your child was whatalife and had an affair, would you still love? Would you forgive?

I don't think anyone is telling whatalife that things are going to be the way he'd like them to be or that she is going to come running back with open arms. But I don't believe he thinks that will happen. But even if he did, then let him think it and GENTLY, with compassion and love, share God's Word with him, give him encouragement, tell him that God forgives him and kindly also tell him that his sin has consequences but God can heal him and help him through this. I think he knows that his wife is "gone" but he was expressing grief-filled feelings over the whole situation.

Very few of those last posts I read were gentle, kind, or loving. They were condemning and harsh. If this man came in bragging about his affair and cursing his wife... okay, that's different. But he came in here broken and hurting. He "deserves" the same compassion that I do.

<small>[ September 14, 2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

If I just thought I deserved another chance, would I have come on this board and asked about it ?

Anwyay, Lovemyex is right. I shouldn't have come on this board. Not because I didn't get the answers I wanted (I wanted opinions regardless) - but the way you guys/gals talk to people is pretty bad. I hope you aren't giving advice to others like that. I got better caring/info/understanding from my ex wife's BEST friends when I talked to them shortly after the divorce. But, they are far along in their Christian walk. My pastor at the time was extremely understanding also.

I can say this. I have learned a lot from God the past 2 years. Like it or not, I AM forgiven by God. No doubt. Same as any killer that may ask for forgiveness afterwards. Understand that we are basically on this earth as a testing/proving ground to get into Heaven. Period. Once we are saved ourselves, then it's time to save others and grow in our walk. I hope you guys understand that. Everything else encountered are just tests from God and Satan.

The tone on most of these threads, and I am not mistaken, that's what it is - is talking down to me and I'm sure anyone else that has commited this horrible mistake. I came in here looking for help, and now I can only pray you get the help you need.

In one of the posts it says something about God putting me on a rocky path because of my error in choices. Well, that is wrong. I may have altered my path in life, but God does not just throw you to a rocky path anymore than your parents would. Once you are forgiven, that's it, it's forgotten.

And I did not realize my mistake AFTER my ex was remarried. I realized it about a week after the divorce. I waited to tell her because I thought she needed some time alone. I would have probably realized it during the 2 month separation except that I was the one that had to sell the house (she had moved out), take care of the dogs, clean the house before the showings, I was working a job that was in the 50-60 hours a week, but knowing it was ending and I would be laid off when it was over so I was also looking for a job and also looking for an apartment that would allow a 80lb dog (easier said than done) when I had next to no money and unemployment doesn't pay that much. But don't worry, I know it's all excuses. But once all of that was settled, which was as the divorce happened, I was able to get some time to myself and reflect, think and pray.

The bible says that divorce is wrong except in the event of adultery. So, in the end it is justified.

I'm done with this thread, just too many people up on their pedestal in here and I'm not even sure you guys/gals realize it. I don't mind being told I am wrong or misguided, but the tone here is ridiculous by almost all.

And on the one line by FC - regardless of anything else, yes, I will NOW claim that I am a Christian. If you understand anything about becoming one, how one is born again and how you continue to grow everyday - then you won't have a problem with me saying that. Being born again is being wiped clean of all sins. And anyone who has ever truly been born again knows that what happens to you personally right afterwards is hard - God wants to test you and Satan is upset he lost you.

FC - one other thing, you said:

"The thrust of my post is that, Whatalife might be saved... I actually don't think anyone is saved or lost at all, because there is always what we do now and in a few moments that can change that status."

This is a scary statement. You are either saved or not. You either go to Heaven or Hell. Sure in your last dying breath you can be saved, but you either are or you aren't at this moment ! Look at the people being shot in WV. They never saw the bullet coming, and if they weren't saved, there was no dying breath to become saved, there was no "next few moments".

And am I am saved ?! I believe in all my heart that God exists. Jesus exists and died for my sins. I repent of all my sins and ask Jesus for forgiveness. Now, there is no doubt because believing that in your heart is all it takes.

Back to this post - thanks anyway everyone. See you later LoveMyEx - your words are obviously from a strong knowledgeable Christian. Thanks. My prayers are with you all. If we are out here posting, then we all still need a lot of help and hurt in different ways from different things.

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: whatalife ]</small>

Whatalife, (I hope you read this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Please continue to feed yourself with first of all, Scripture, but also the books you are reading and church and your pastor's counsel. I would suggest also a mentor... an older, godly man who can perhaps disciple you and hold you accountable and also support you through this.

I do honestly think you are wise not to come here. It is no offense to anyone, but I do not think it is wise to seek counsel from a public forum. I don't even seek counsel from my own family and from some friends, knowing that it will not be Biblical. I don't seek counsel in here either. I only give it when I feel led, and only encouraging recociliation and forgiveness, etc. and I give it because I am a Christian knowing that I have knowledge of the truth that people need in their lives. You truly, truly have to be very discerning in seeking any counsel and opinion, esp. on such matters as divorce. I learned the hard way. I shared some of my husband's sins, and of course, my friends and family "sided" with me and called him all sorts of things. That did not help me nor did it make me feel good. I then began to close my mouth and seek the Lord and only a few godly people that the Lord led me to. They too counseled strongly against seeking opinion and advice from others.

And, yes, you are forgiven by God. Do not ever, ever forget it! Walk and live in that forgiveness. Do not sin with intent any more, but when you do fail, in whatever area, confess and keep pressing on! The Lord walks with you!

I would encourage you to read book called "The Road to Forgiveness." The authors are Bill and Cindy Griffiths. She was on Oprah and is a Christian. A drunk driver killed her daughter and mother. She chose to forgive this woman and as a result, this woman came to know the Lord and these two are close friends now and share this testimony to others. Oh, and the woman is no longer an alcoholic as well.

Also, a book you might gain from is called "The God of Second Chances" by Stephen Arterburn (a Christian counselor). Another good book is called "Twice Pardoned" by Harold Morris. He is a Christian man who was in prison for a long time. It is kinda old; I am not sure if they still print it.

Also, read anything by Charles Colson, Charles Swindoll, John Piper, John McArthur. See if you can find some books by Corrie ten Boom. Her and her family were put in Nazi concentration camps for hiding Jews during WWII. She has shared how she forgave the very guards who kept her there (both her father and sister died in the camps). She spent her life traveling and sharing about Jesus. She was called "Tramp for the Lord." Also, Tony Evans is an excellent author and very Biblical. But most of all, stay in the Bible and study it so that you can grow and so that you will have strength you need to get through this.

I will put you on my prayer list whatalife and will continue to pray for you. My heart is so for reconciliation and divorce is a grievous thing. My husband is engaged right now and I have wanted to reconcile, so I know the pain of having it rejected.

Be blessed, Brother. Be strong in the Lord! Leave all that sin behind you because you are a new creation in Christ! Hold fast to his truths because Satan will try to defeat you with lies about not being forgiven, not being saved, etc. Don't believe them for a minute! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Keep your eyes straight ahead, fixed on Jesus. He endured the cross for you. He will help you through this. He will restore you in his time. Right now, you are lowly of spirit and that is where you need to remain for some time until the Lord restores you. Allow Him to heal you. Obey Him, seek Him, love Him. Cry when you need to and know that the Lord is close to the brokenhearted. My prayers are with you.

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

James 2:13
Judgement without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgement.

Matthew 6:15
If you do not forgive men for their sins, your Father will not forgive you.

Ephesians 2:8-9
It is by grace you have been saved, through faith-- and this not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God-- not of works...

Titus 3:4-7
When the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.

1 Peter 3:18
Christ died for sins once for all....

Romans 8:1
There is now NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be SAVED.

1 Timothy 1:13, 14
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and disbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus... Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I am the worst."

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

You said, "I actually don't think anyone is saved or lost at all, because there is always what we do now and in a few moments that can change that status."

Well, maybe this explains where you are coming from. According to the Bible, if we "confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" and believe upon him and confess our sins, we are SAVED. And sins from that point on don't cause us to lose that salvation if it is true and genuine. We are still going to sin. Being a Christian doesn't take away our sin nature. But, we repent of those sins and we are forgiven and we keep pressing on, saved just as before.

There are many points in which we disagree. I do not judge Whatalife. However, I do not coddle him either. I know that perhaps I may be wrong on many issues should Jesus come down and point them out. However, on this one I absolutely disagree.

The mere fact of proclaiming Jesus the Son of God and becoming baptised is by my thinking complete folly, if you believe that your actions thereafter are meaningless. I guess I agree in one aspect, that if a person truly... TRULY believes in Christ, his actions will follow. But what about me for instance... I absolutely believe Christ is the Son of God. I have been baptised and I do my best to follow his teachings. I fail miserably so often that I can hardly believe myself. I know that it is through his grace that I am saved and that if I repent and truly desire redemption that I will be saved.

Lovemyex... I don't exactly know how to state this, because each time I try... I read it and it is not exactly what I am meaning. I guess it just boils down to the fact that I still believe that each person must live his life as well as possible, and that believing in Christ only allows us the opportunity to be saved, should God find our hearts to be true although our actions and our minds fail us. In order for our hearts to be true however, our actions and minds need to strive to be Christ like. We WILL fail and his grace will redeem us, but I think that this is IF we are truly right with God... NOT just because we were baptised when we were a teenager.

THAT is what I speak of when I say that you have yourself right now and in the next few moments. There have been countless people believe in Jesus as young men and women, become Christians, only to fall away from him throughout their lives. To believe that they are saved by their past belief when their current actions do NOT show that they continue to believe is something that I think MANY will find they were not so clear on come judgement day. I understand that there are several faiths out there that believe that it is a ONE SHOT DEAL. You believe, you can do what you want, because you are saved.

There is no way that I will ever be able to explain that I think this is NOT Biblical. People will read the scripture how they choose to justify their actions and choices. Some will say I am sinning for stating the things that I have on this board, probably even this post. I simply believe that should a sinner become a Christ follower, he must still walk the path forever. That means that he strives to stay within Christ forever. I agree with your posting of Christianity. I just believe it means something else. I don't believe that once saved, always saved. I just don't. That is like saying I can say I love someone and continue hurting that person, but regardless of my current actions, my past declaration of love, supercedes what I show in my daily life.

What I DO believe however, is that by believing in Christ, we have the opportunity to fail, fall away, and always come back. But it is through that return and living our lives in HIM that we are saved... not just because we were baptised and saved once.

Maybe I am misreading your post Lovemyex. Perhaps I didn't understand the jest of your post at all. There are so many things that seem to just be 'a given' in your belief of Christianity and I feel that these things are had by our living our life as well as possible, understanding that we will never be able to deserve what we receive, and love the grace that God gives us. I know we will never EARN our way to heaven, it is by his grace we are able. But I don't believe that his grace is given to just anyone. I believe that it is available to everyone, but we probably WILL not agree on this point.

I do hope that you understand that I am NOT trying to portray myself as all knowing. I disagree about this because of my upbringing, my biblical teaching, my life, and my reading. I am not condemning... I am not trying to judge. This is a site in which I am happy to be called wrong and someone explain their point of view. I need for others to hold me accountable for my actions and my thinking because I KNOW that I am not always right and I relish the opportunity to learn new things. I greatly appreciate your viewpoints and your explanation about why you disagree. I hope you can understand that I hold no ill will against you. Nor Whatalife.

This is a site in which EVERYONE feels as though what is said has meaning. ONE way or the OTHER. Each person comes at each point bearing the burden of his/her past, present, and future. Each person WANTS to be right... each person wants to be whole... each person THINKS that they might have some understanding about a situation and that is EXACTLY what makes this site so wonderful. The opportunity to interact with such diversity. For anyone to take what is said on this site as 'FACT' or 'counsel to follow' is in my opinion not ready to be on this site. I hope that people will hear what others have to say about them and their situations and reflect... taking everything that is said with a grain of salt however, seeing truly whether others have a better sense about what is being said by them.

I know that I have been 'called' countless times on what I THOUGHT I was saying... only to have someone point out what it sounded like I was saying something else. Their reflection of my words along with their thoughts allowed me to look at several things from different viewpoints that I would never have seen from only my own. I love a critical post about what I have written, not because I enjoy being scolded or told I am wrong. But because it allows me a different way of thinking which might not be within me innately. I might disagree... as I do with you on several points. But I always hope that should some way of thinking prove more 'real' or 'better' than my own, that I will have the opportunity to change my thoughts and integrate that into my life.

Difficulties within this forum are many. Writing something thinking you are saying it in one way, is often misinterpreted and read another. In a face to face conversation clarification can be had quickly... however here, there are so many feelings that we quite often miss what the other person was TRYING to say by sticking on the text, the words, the thoughts that WE read into the post.

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

I was just going to read this thread to see what I could learn from it, but I've got to respond to a few things that have been said.

1) OF COURSE it's a good idea to come here for counsel!!!!!!! Yes, you'll sometimes get a bitter or harsh reply because your post has hit a nerve; those are the ones you don't take to heart. Those are the ones about which you say, "Wow, this person must really be hurting to sound this angry!" Then you go on to the next post and find words of comfort, understanding, wisdom. That has been my experience, and I think it's typical. Asking for and giving advice on relationships and healing is what this site is all about. As a devout Christian, I believe God wants us to minister to each other. This is what the site is for. So please don't stop posting or asking for advice.

2) I strongly agree this isn't the ONLY place you should seek counseling, Whatalife. The road to healing is so confusing and so full of potholes, it often takes counseling. I've found it enormously helpful.

3) Do you have friends you can talk to (other than online)?

4) There is a tremendous amount of pain in your posts, W. There are many people who are in such agony and have such rage over a spouse's affairthat they can't see how painful it is to have the guilt you're experiencing. Many of us do understand, though. My H. had a one-night stand about four years into our 26-year marriage. The pain was overwhelming...I didn't see how I could stand it. However, I saw what the experience did to my husband, and the regret was terrible, something you wouldn't wish on anyone. Also, five years after that, I had what I know realize was an EA. At the time, I thought it was just a close friendship, though it should have been obvious this guy was in love with me (oh, denial!). Because my H. is a difficult, temperamental person, I allowed myself to get sucked into a relationship that, while not physical, was closer emotionally than my marriage. I understand why I did it, I forgive myself now (It took a long, long time.), but I wish I could just cut that experience out of my life. You need counseling--and God's healing grace-- to soften the pain you've caused yourself.

People say, "You need to move on," which is an easy thing to say, hard (so hard) to do! Luckily, you have many resources, and many people who wish you well. You will be in my prayers. I have absolute faith that you will find your way through this and to a peaceful, fulfilled life.

Belle, I enjoyed your post and the wisdom in it. I do think though that great discernment needs to be taken in a website forum (or any group) when seeking advice. I, too, am a Christian and I think it's very dangerous to open myself up to receiving advice from non-Christians. In fact, even some advice I've taken from well-meaning Chrisitans has not been good and hurt my marriage. I think it is extremely important that a Christian gets most all their advice from one place... the Bible! After that, I'd suggest a godly pastor and same-sex friends, but even then... well, even they could give you advice that is wrong.

I have often thought of men like Abraham and Noah. Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son. If he had sought anyone's advice... well, you can only imagine what he would've been told. Noah was told to build an ark. It took years, this place was a place of little rain, and he's the only man around building a huge boat! Can you imagine what others said to him?? But he never asked anyone for thier advice. He simply obeyed God.

There are many Biblical stories in which people did not seek advice of others when they were doing God's will. Even godly people can be well-meaning but give poor advice. I had a very godly friend during my separation who I looked to far too much for advice and she gave me 3 specific advices that I now can look back as being wrong. And I ended up taking her advice rather than "following my heart." And when I say "following my heart," I don't mean going on my emotions, but doing what in my heart God was putting there (to stay with my husband!).

Anyways, I really don't think it's wise for people to seek advice here. I guess alot of support is given to people, but I know that alot of people are giving advice out of angry, bitter perspectives. There are hurting and confused people wanting to know what to do and they often will take wrong advice thinking it's good advice. I believe that many a bad advice has ended a marriage that could have been saved.

But, I do think you make good points and yes, God does use us to minister to others. I think it's better done in a church with real life people, but I have definitely been ministered to from various people online who I've met in a prayer forum or other ministry. So, God can use something like this for good and it doesn't have to be a bad thing necessarily. But I do think we need to be discerning and as people giving advice, we need to guard our words carefully.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Belle, I enjoyed your post and the wisdom in it. I do think though that great discernment needs to be taken in a website forum (or any group) when seeking advice. I, too, am a Christian and I think it's very dangerous to open myself up to receiving advice from non-Christians. In fact, even some advice I've taken from well-meaning Chrisitans has not been good and hurt my marriage. I think it is extremely important that a Christian gets most all their advice from one place... the Bible! After that, I'd suggest a godly pastor and same-sex friends, but even then... well, even they could give you advice that is wrong.

I have often thought of men like Abraham and Noah. Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son. If he had sought anyone's advice... well, you can only imagine what he would've been told. Noah was told to build an ark. It took years, this place was a place of little rain, and he's the only man around building a huge boat! Can you imagine what others said to him?? But he never asked anyone for thier advice. He simply obeyed God.

There are many Biblical stories in which people did not seek advice of others when they were doing God's will. Even godly people can be well-meaning but give poor advice. I had a very godly friend during my separation who I looked to far too much for advice and she gave me 3 specific advices that I now can look back as being wrong. And I ended up taking her advice rather than "following my heart." And when I say "following my heart," I don't mean going on my emotions, but doing what in my heart God was putting there (to stay with my husband!).

Anyways, I really don't think it's wise for people to seek advice here. I guess alot of support is given to people, but I know that alot of people are giving advice out of angry, bitter perspectives. There are hurting and confused people wanting to know what to do and they often will take wrong advice thinking it's good advice. I believe that many a bad advice has ended a marriage that could have been saved.

But, I do think you make good points and yes, God does use us to minister to others. I think it's better done in a church with real life people, but I have definitely been ministered to from various people online who I've met in a prayer forum or other ministry. So, God can use something like this for good and it doesn't have to be a bad thing necessarily. But I do think we need to be discerning and as people giving advice, we need to guard our words carefully.

Just a couple of thoughts...

FormerlyConfused, I will try to reply later. I am braindead right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

Formerly Confused - now you have me confused - why did you quote yourself ? I didn't say the words below, I had reprint them from your post to dispute them because they were in one of your prior posts. So, I'm not sure what you were getting at.

--------------------------
You said, "I actually don't think anyone is saved or lost at all, because there is always what we do now and in a few moments that can change that status."
---------------------------

LoveMyEx, I respect your wish to get advice only from Christians, and only if it is based on the Bible. I myself have very strong beliefs about this topic, though they are different than yours. First, let me say that I have had excellent advice from people who were not Christians. I have friends of many different faiths, and I have been pleased and surprised by how often their advice has reflected wisdom in the New Testament. No offense, but I believe God speaks to people of other faiths, too. We are all his children. Naturally, we don't take advice that goes against what Jesus has told us to do, whether that advice is from Christians or some other faith.

Second, I know from personal experience that when one is in a very troubled state of mind, like Whatalife is, it can be difficult to determine which Biblical advice to take. Does one turn to Leviticus or Luke? (I personally look to the New Testament more than the old because I believe the New Testament is Jesus's new covenant with us and therefore supercedes the Old Testament.) It's as if the mental pain clouds the mind, so that it can be difficult to see what advice to take. This is when a spiritual advisor--a member of the clergy or an elder in the church, for instance--can be of real help.

I agree with you that turning to God directly is of utmost importance, but sometimes friends--we'll say Christian friends--are helpful there, too. A couple of years ago, I posted on this site to ask how I could figure out what God wanted me to do in regard to my marriage. I'd been praying so often and begging for an answer, and I didn't seem to be getting one. Naturally, that was a post that attracted other Christians, who gave me excellent advice (on praying and waiting, not on my marriage) and related experiences that helped me to be patient. As it turned out, God had been telling me what to doall along, but because, based on my interpretation of the Bible at that time, it was not what I thought God would tell me to do, (I have since learned that my interpretation was mistaken.) I missed the message. I don't know what I would have done if others hadn't given me advice and encouragement. Maybe I'd still be overlooking the message! I am now asking God to give the the strength, courage, and wisdom to follow out His will.

Whatalife, I have been thinking of you and praying for you. My concern is that when someone has been just immersed for so long in pain, worry, and anger, as you seem to be, it can lead to depression, anxiety attacks, and other unpleasant problems. Books and the MB site can be wonderful support, but you still need to seek counseling. Your minister can recommend a Christian counselor.

I hope it helps to know that other people (of whatever faith) have gone through what you're going through, and that all of us wish you the best.

Whatalife...

I quoted the topic I was choosing to discuss. That is all. There are so many things that were brought up that I couldn't and really shouldn't address them all. That is OK.

Whatalife, I hope that you can understand that I am NOT trying to be critical... or at least overly so. I understand that you feel badly about your choices and have asked forgiveness. I believe that you will have it given truth in your heart and God's grace. I really do. I think that you will live with your choices forever, but that I hope that they diminish in significance in your life over time. THOSE are the rocks and boulders I spoke of. Those are the biggest impediments to my own healing... my understanding about how my choices affected my marriage. I do not hold ill will against you. I do not 'hate or despise' you because I was betrayed. I wish you could have been sitting across from me at a coffee shop when I was speaking to you. Then the intonation and meaning of my words would have been more clear I believe. I think that my choice of words were while purveying my thoughts, NOT bringing my meaning across as well as I had hoped.

I know that you came here asking for help. And I was hoping to provide some help in a 'critical' thinking kind of way. The world is full of people who are willing to say "I am sorry and things will be better." I found things in your post that I didn't agree with, at least in how I THOUGHT you were meaning them. I tried to explain why I thought differently. Those words I chose obviously were coarse to some and apparently you. That was NOT my meaning.

It is hard being a BS. NO WS ever is willing to hear what we say when it is critical because it is 'always the getting burned' talking rather than just seeing things differently. That is the same when a WS states 'why' they did what they did. To everyone else, it sounds like justification, regardless of what it is or is being said as. It is the nature of the beast, and the important part, I believe after having been on this site for over 2 years, is to find that sometimes the most critical posts are the most helpful.

Sometimes, true, we just need a shoulder to cry on. We need to hear sympathy much less empathy. Perhaps that was what you were looking for. It was not how I thought your post was headed. I thought that you were wanting opinions, so I gave mine. It doesn't diminish my thoughts nor my feelings to be called wrong or mistaken. I hope that by being able to read posts on here, you will see that yes, you are on the thin side as far as compatriots as far as betrayal... but by listening and discarding or perhaps even understanding what people say to you, you may just understand a bit more about what has happened. The people on this site are invaluable in my opinion. They have helped kick me in the can when I needed it as well as given me a shoulder to cry on quite frequently.

I absolutely DON'T think you made a mistake coming here. I hope that my post doesn't have the power to make you feel that you chose poorly coming here. NO ONE should have that much power over a person simply by stating an opinion or two.

LoveMyEx Wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ONEDAYATATIME,
How can you possibly "agree" with such condemning words? I am just literally almost speecheless at what I've read here! YES, there are consequences, etc... but PRAISE THE LORD... there is also forgiveness and restoration! Thank the Lord that He lets you live because I'm sure that each of you have sinned every day in your own ways... whether it is selfishness, anger, judging, or whatever! None of you "deserves" anything either!

God's will is not for us to be "happy"! That is such a lie!! To me, it seems like all anyone cares about it their "happiness."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LoveMyEx, I am speechless as well for your obvious condemnation of my thoughts and feelings. There are often times when I do not agree with a lot of the posts you make but I do not feel it is my place to jump in and attack your beliefs or opinions.

What I read in whatalife’s post was that he couldn’t understand why his ex was able to move on and didn’t care to discuss their marriage any more and he implied that she had only “settled” for someone else instead of trying to work things out with him. And that is what I was referencing to in my post to him.

I do feel sympathy for him and I thought I conveyed this in my post as well. I am glad that he now sees the error of his ways and I feel badly for him that he hasn’t been able to move on like his ex has.

BUT… I am a firm believer that there are consequences for every action. While I am sure that God has forgiven him and hopefully so has his ex, that doesn’t always mean that one gets to erase the past and get a second chance to do things over again.

He made the choice to have an affair and he admits he also made the choice to file for divorce. Now he is living with the consequences for those decisions. Though I feel badly for the pain whatalife is obviously in I still stand by my original post.

It is time for him to accept that it was his choices that led him to where he is today. He needs to accept that his ex has moved on and that she no longer owes him anything.

Any yes LoveMyEx I too am a sinner and have done many things that I wish I could go back and erase. But I know I can not and have faced that. But what I can do is to learn from my mistakes and do my best to never repeat them. I only wish the same for whatalife.

OneDayAtaTime...

I too was speechless when I read what I did.

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

whatalife, I'm sorry for the pain you're in. What I appreciate most about your post is hearing, "the rest of the story," from a WS who's now regretting his behavior. As you can hear from the anger directed at you, the pain we BS's feel as a result of the betrayal by our WS's is almost unbearable. Unbearable enough that some of us will lash out at any WS, even a repentent one who we should be welcoming into our forum with open arms.

My WH left me almost 3 years ago and I've had no contact with him for over a year. I have a restraining order due to his threats of violence and repeated episodes of property damage. He still blames me completely for his A, so I can really apppreciate someone like you who's willing to take responsibility for his own behavior.

My H and I were together for 18 years before he left me for the MOW. Another thread asks us to forgive the OW's, and I do. I can't say she's a "good" person, I think she's a weak, needy person who doesn't care who she hurts in order to get what she thinks she needs - just like my WH. Both are actively abusing drugs and alcohol and neither has worked in 3 years while I support them, running the business my H and I own, alone.

I think it's important to realize that right now, we're right where we're supposed to be. We have no way of predicting the outcome. But I believe God wants what's best for us and if we turn our lives over to Him, that's what we'll get, we just don't know what form it will take.

You've worked hard to make amends for your mistakes and, I think your ex-wife is right, you'll make someone a wonderful H. Please have faith that God will make this happen in His time.