Renae, if you want to go to the discount attorney, be careful or you may get a discount divorce. While I can't change your mind on that, I wholeheartedly recommend that you retain a separate attorney to represent you. Even if their job is to simply review what the discount person is doing. <p>Do you want a cheap divorce or do you want a smart divorce?

I completely agree with you on this. I told H too that I want everything checked over by my own attorney before I sign anything.<p>This morning, I was loading up my car with my stuff from the old house, when H came over there... fortunately I had revived enough from yesterday to be strong to him when he started in verbally abusing again...I got away from him and got back home now, thank God. <p>He did say he still wants us to see the attorney and try to work this out to part as friends. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

He said he hasn't made the appointment yet with the attorney...he's considering what I've said before about separation (& that he must be open to change & growth). What a surprise after him telling me yesterday such an idea is unbiblical!
(My internal response is.....?????) <p>Also today, when he complained about his dad and brother, then was verbally projecting on me, I looked him in the face & said, I could be your best friend...but you need to be my best friend too, not keep attacking me! I can't stand it! And here you want my help with your work but how can I feel like helping when you treat me like this!? He looked stunned, and I told him I couldn't take anymore of his treatment today and I left. I wanted to show him that his behavior hurts that much to me, and that it isn't just his brother who has the problem!)<p>I don't know why I keep trying even after the decision was made to divorce!!! Guess I feel I will tell him what's right 'til he hears my voice for the last time. <p>I will however remain firm on separation ASAP ....and little contact 'til he grows up!!<p>[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

I will pass on something that has been suggested to me. <p>YOu need a microcassette recorder small enough to be fairly easily concealed. Not much bigger than a paper back novel. Record some of his tirades and keep them as evidence. Perhaps he might need to hear how he talks to you. But letting hear one of the tapes would probably create distrust.<p>I have numerous tapes of telephone conversations x and I have had. Conversations in which he lost control. I have never taped him in person. Well, I did once but I have lost that tape.<p>But you might need to keep some records of these conversations.

You cannot have the same attorney he has. I know he is trying to do an uncontested or "friendly" divorce. But that is not the way of Plan A or Plan B. <p>You need to have your very own attorney or he will abuse you using the legal system as a tool of further oppression and punishment. Let him use mr. discount. You need Ms. Moneypants. A Christian attorney would not be hard to find. <p>Do NOT let him control the legal process. This is what abusers do. Sometimes even when both parties have attorneys they dig in and make it as abusive as possible. The less truth is in them, the more hellacious the litigation. <p>You can be calm, reasonable, fair and come to an agreement without any litigation just as sweetly with your own attorney in the process as with only one neutral attorney. And you will have a better understanding of what is going on if you do.<p>Please do not consent to ongoing abuse by going to his attorney without your own along for the ride.<p>By the way, he and his abuse do not have the power to "MAKE" you do anything. Please take responsibility for your own reactions and actions.

Good points, thank you! Yes, H knows I will consent to nothing without my own attorney approving. This keeps him accountable to handle things justly.<p>Yesterday, early a.m. I was at the old house getting more of my things, when H came to the property to work on some outdoor buildings....He came in the house, and immediately started in: "you...., you...., you......"--- all accusing, condemning, blaming, shaming, twisting our history to suit his current purposes, trying to start arguement out of nothing just to win, etc.... (he never quits...how draining!) Then he told me I should leave him alone, that I'm bothering him when he's working! (crazy how Controller/abusers initiate "attack" verbally but it's my fault! I finished what I needed to do & left when I was ready.)

The three quilts my grandmothers & mother made...H wouldn't let me take them, or at least not now. (I'll take them next trip.)Though he's repeatedly been critical of my family over the years, now he said his criticism of them was all my fault, that they really do mean alot to him! GRRRR<p>At one point he appeared almost ready to cry, like he's hurt & it's hitting his realization deeper that our things are actually being split up for us to live separate. Maybe he didn't expect me to follow thru.<p>He also denied that he had said yesterday that he is considering separation; now he says he's just busy and we'll have to go to the attorney next week. I can't trust what he says. He's a pile of emotions, feeling uprooted, losing control of our relationship. <p>When he says we're going to the attorney "just to get information", he seems reluctant about going through with divorce. I think he wants to appear to me to be decided but inside he is not. I can sense it.<p>He accused me of "burning all the bridges" for us to be together. I said I had not. (Truly he has burnt them.)<p>On a positive note, I am feeling a gradual but noticeable healing inside me as I trust God now and keep moving forward with the separation... I feel a little more motivation & creativity returning. <p>Maybe this doesn't fit the Harley plan A or B, but I feel my situation calls for me to force separation, but let H decide to either grow in it or divorce. <p>Since H will be living at the old house, I think it is kinda cool that our last therapists live just down the road from there and do therapy at their home. How convenient for him if decides to get individual help!! I know this is tugging at him inside too (the man particularly, was an ideal match for H.) <p>The bondage is breaking, and the peace & relief I feel is Heavenly!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

Last night I re-read M. Scott Peck's great book about human evil called "People of the Lie" that was published in 1982, I believe. Seems that if you don't know and properly NAME the illness or dysfunction you are facing you can't properly deal with it either. Your H sounds like he is very, very much into the Pride and Deception and Keeping-up-of-Appearances that characterize the people who have given their lives over to evil. The refusal to submit their will to God's will, or any other authority for that matter, is the root of the problems. Seems he is a law unto himself - he is his own god. A lot of good that will do him!<p>I continue to pray that you and the girls are doing well.

^<p>^<p>^<p>Any word from Renae?

Hi all. Thank you for thinking of me. D had another virus and that always makes her other nausea problem worse... we're taking her back to Mayo on the 18th. Can't have any big change here in the family life until the new specialists see her (it is already a cloudy enough line between what is physical & what is emotional). After their diagnosis and Christmas with relatives, hopefully I get H to follow thru on leaving permanently. Although he isn't around me much (as always, a workaholic), he uses every minute he does drop in to throw a bomb of revenge, blame, etc. GRRR!!!!!! Lately I'm really feeling drained again....I can hardly wait 'til this is over.<p>[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

I'm afraid it ain't ever gonna be over unless one of you file for Legal Separation or Divorce.

To all who have responded to Renae:<p>Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't we hear the same 'song and dance' this time last year at Christmas?<p>Yet, Renae is still allowing her h to verbally berate/abuse her....<p>I've heard it said that "God allows what we allow".<p>?<p>[censored] from Texas

yes, Karenna. <p>I heard June Hunt on the radio last night telling a caller that the blame these sick spouses do is a form of manipulation. It is! <p>I just found out that H's family insists on meeting at our house on the 21st. I'm afraid I'm too drained to throw a party! H says it's about time I get some pressure!! (GRRR...He's got an endless supply of verbal venom!!)...and then later yesterday he rebukes me and demands me to say why I look so sad-faced-- That didn't deserve an answer. As if he doesn't know why I'm hurting so much with my dreams for a marriage all in ashes, & he still expects a smile from me?? UGH!!! He's in his own world and can't begin to comprehend the hell he's putting me thru. Well, I must do this party for the kids' sake. Somehow I've got to get thru Christmas and then H has got to GO!!!!!<p>I am so sad to see our 11 yr old talking abusive like her father! I pray that when H is out of here that she can quit being like this!!<p>I pray to God that with the New Year will come a new peaceful & joyful life!

Hi [censored]!...I just posted and then found yours.
Yes, exactly. I recall very well the hell I went thru last Christmas with H throwing me into the stairway the night before the big day of entertaining my family & his dad here.
Not another year more. I can't.

As you've said, [censored], we earn our way out, turn over every last stone before we can go. I believe God expected me to have a heart of trying until H officially quit therapy this fall, said he refuses to grow, and will divorce...that was the final nail in the coffin and I let him do it.
Now God is releasing me....

You are COLLABORATING in the abuse of yourself and your daughters by not filing for divorce, not kicking him out, and having the disgusting sycophancy to even attend a party in the same room with him.<p>Can you not see that YOU are responsible for having trained your child to be rude and abusive? He did not have the power to do that to her without your complicity. You have proved to them every day of their lives that dishing out abuse WORKS.<p>
When are you going to start taking responsibility for yourself and your own actions? You are still making it like it is all your H's fault and poor little Renae just can't leave yet.<p>What date did you file for separation or divorce?

Hi Renae:<p>May I comment? I have read several of the posts-- and have a pretty good idea from what you wrote-- the journey you have been on--<p>My heart goes out to you- It sounds like you are in this place that is one of the worst kinds... living with a Born Again Believer who is both spiritually, physically, verbally, emotionally abusive. <p>You have rec'd support/ help from a number of folks here--and I see some of the steps you have taken---but it isn't ENOUGH!.. <p>I have heard your statements about the advice you hve rec'd from therapists... some of it quite poor..but again, that isn't to justify little to no action. <p>I am not sure if what I have to share will make any difference-- but I feel compelled to say it.. So compelled.. that this is my second attempt at writing this note to you---after having it disappear on me.. after my computer timed out.<p>Please get the book--
"Help for the Battered Woman"--by Lydia Savina, Ph.d. <p>It is written by a Believer-- who was trapped in an abusive relationship.. and her desire to do what is right Biblically, and her desire to stay committed.. --and what she had to do. Although, I don't know everything about you--- some of this may help you.. and in solidfying your resolve to EXIT this relationship. It may also help you see how abuse if cyclic, and always spirals into a deeper level of severity as time goes by. <p>Yes.. you can do legal seperation-- w/hopes that it will change--- that he will change.. but--- NOT LIKELY-- <p>Men who control.. whether they are Believers or not.. usually look for another woman that permits them to control-- so the cycle is repeated all over again. <p>ACtually the abuse you described.. your kids reactions-- is one of th most destructive relationships around.--It is TOXIC- to your well being.. and your safety-- that of your kids.<p>PLEASE RE-READ THAT STATMENT AGAIN!<p>
YOU MUST FIND A WAY TO EXIT-- TO PUT A BARRIER BETWN YOU AND HIM// KIDS.. while documenting everything you can. <p>THERE ARE SHELTERS EVERYWHERE---THEY ARE USUALLY A GOOD PLACE TO RUN---- WITH THE KIDS.. WHILE YOU GET LEGAL ADVICE--Make sure you take copies of documents, money, cc, car key dups.. etc...<p>Understand that your husband is ILL--- maybe ill all the way across the spectrum-- <p>He is drunk on his desire to scapegoat you, overpower you, and decompensate you into putty... and is not afraid to do use spiritual toxicity to accomplish his purpose.<p>I realize you have sick daughter.. (I too.. homeschool--and know how hard it can be financially-- but it doesn't have to stop you from getting to a place of safety..) <p>There are ways to do this too-- and still work towards a place of safety. <p>The steps you have taken, in moving some of your things out.. are all good-- BUT-- you must do MORE-- Living like a martyr is not
GOD HONORING--and will come back to bite you in the BUTT-- with the kids.<p>It is important to realize that part of the abuse is designed to create a this "disequalibrium" in your psych-- this is his in-road to keeping the control over you. It is called dissonance. A kind of "fog"--about what is happening.Once a woman can see through this fog-- then the need to act takes over.<p>When a woman is abused.. no matter what method--- this disequalibrium creates this incongruent thinking in her head...<p>The process of detachment is hard--esp for Christian women-- they feel like they are leaving the covering-- that God might punish them, or that they are somehow being unsubmissive--- <p>Leaving him, based on the stuff you have described--is not an option-- it is not about IF--- but about WHEN-- and it sounds like you are really struggling with this.. but know in your heart.. that this is not GOD's plan for a marriage.<p>I also want to direct you to the story of Nabal/ Abigal-- NABAL ruled by tyranny, abuse, control, and the Bible called him "Foolish" b/c of his methods--He was also described as being alcholic.<p>His wife was characterized as "wise, insightful"--but the whole household "walked on egg shells around him" due to his abusive, unwise, tyrannical ways-- <p>She was constantly cleaning up his messes-- and the story of David protecting his land/ cattle, sheep.. is no exception.<p>Nabal's foolishness-- nearly cost the family / servants their lives.. when David / his men needs were left unattended to. <p>IT WAS ABIGAL that ACTED-- to protect Nabal's household--- SHe took the steps necessary to intervene and acted to protect the safety /welfare of her household, by providing for David / his men.<p>Now true... this story doesn't described your situation completely or even exactly-- but it does profile a woman who endured abuse, and tyranny of a husband-- who was a harm to his family/ household.<p>GOD did NOT remove ABIGAL from this marriage/ home-- <p>Instead-- He honored her wisdom in ACTING quickly, to PROTECT her family! THEN THE LORD honored that decision and ACT of faith--to step out--- and took Nabal out of the picture.. and then provided DAVID"s as her husband.<p>Do you see the correlations? This resolve to ACT-- must come from within you.<p>You must actively fight against the forces inside that try to goad you into staying--for whatever reason that is...<p>( THe descriptions of the incidents in your home-- clearly fit the pattern-- and your confusion/dissonance fits that foggy pattern too--<p>Being friends with him is not the answer--at this point--giving him any indication of what your next step is.. isn't either-- please be wise and get counsel.. esp legal)<p>There are enough studies out there that demonstrate that children raise in abusive homes.. including Christian homes--- grow into adulthood with alot of baggage--and one of the primary complaints I have heard over/ over--- they blamed the "non-abuser"for the problems.. b/c they didn't ACT-- to protect them---- <p>Yes, your children's behavior/illnesses-- can prob be directly traced back to being in a TOXIC home environment-<p>Please don't allow your daughter's illness to be the EXCUSE for you not acting--- if you can't do it for yourself at this point in time--- fast forward to another 10 years-- and see if your children will see you as ACTING in their best intrests.<p>Let's not live in a relationship where the regrets years later-- will be scars for life!<p>In Jesus,
D

I understand all of what you're saying. Thank you for taking the time to help!...
Yet that is only part of the bigger picture of my life. Anyway, no time here for more explanation, but the point is I know now. I KNOW and will DO.
H & I have agreed to part/divorce after Christmas. He will move back to the old house and agrees to support the kids & I financially, including health insurance, etc.... Just need to get it on paper and legally sealed. I do not want to live the rest of my life fighting him, since he is terribly revengeful. He sees that I'm not going to be controlled anymore. Moving forward slow but sure....

Ranea:<p>Good! I am glad you are ready to DO the work it takes to get out from under this bondage/control. I realize there is alot more to the story, but I hope you will be courageous enough to take the talking piece, to the next level...- action.<p>Here's the thing-- controllers typically will promise you the moon--while it serves THEIR purposes-- If by chance, he doesn't follow through with what he has agreed to--( moving out after Christmas) then what are your next steps? <p>If you do decide to engage a lawyer-- which I think under the circumstances-- appears to be the most logical place to begin-- then when do you plan to implement this piece to protect yourself / and the kids? <p>In other words-- they can promise the moon, the sun, the sky,,,, but you have little leverage at the moment to enforce his responsibility to you, and the kids--- and little power to "make" him move out.<p> A word of caution-- if there has been physical abuse.. please keep in mind--- you need documentation of this for the courts.. and any restraining order to be filed-- <p>One way is to get a restraining order, another is make a report to the police--and press charges, if it happens again-- (like the example you described about the stairs). <p>With my husband's temper-- (I literally was forced to put him on notice-- he touches me again-- i don't care how miniscule-- i will call the police- and will press charges-- so what if he spends a night in jail-- and he is forced to get a lawyer, and it goes on his record--thems the consequences-- of inappropriate behavior.)<p>So you can see I speak from experience /as well as professional experience. My husband isn't an overt controller, more covert--<p>Anyway---it is important you have some contigency back-up plans--and some leverage behind you-- to enforce the "barrier"--so that he understands you mean business-- this is a form of setting good boundaries around you/ the kids-- and it is critical that you bring in some "heavy guns" behind you...<p>Take care of yourself/ your kids..
D<p>[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: ITherapist ]</p>

This just came up and at the perfect time for me... my brother went back to college... our parents gave him some money for furniture & insurance and are giving me the same amount. So, if H turns on his promise & doesn't leave & cooperate toward divorce, I will have a bit of money to leave & get my own place or use it toward filing for divorce....or? but however it goes, this death trap must end....I am suffocating again emotionally & must move on.

Great! I am glad to hear that you are thinking through the "HOW" part of planning. Keep it to yourself.. hopefully your H won't know that you have the funds.. keep him guessing-what your next step will be-- it will keep him off balance until you can make a safety net around you/ the kids.<p>As you know-- this cycle-- conti cycle-- and you have to have a firm resolve-- that this is HIS rollercoaster of power-- and you are an unwilling rider-- Make that resolve-- and visually see yourself stopping the ride- and stepping off, giving the rollercoaster seat BACK to him empty.<p>Know that u have many friends supporters here.. Ck out that book too-- even if you have to order it from the library.<p>Good Luck.. I will keep you before the Lord.
D