For someone who has posted to this site over 3000 times, I am ashamed of your behavior and lack of compassion on the thread entitled "Trapped by her past (Help me)". It appears from some of your past posts on other threads and the fact that people seek out your advice that you would be one of the wise "members" on this board. But your remarks to PG are way out of line for someone who seems to know so much and hold themselves out as a religious person. "God Bless. JL" what a bunch of crap. What ever happened to treat others as you would like to be treated.<P>I do not know if I will ever be able to read your words of "advice" in the future without first thinking how you treated PG. Please try to play nice with others from now on out. JSG.

jsg,<P>As everyone here you have your options. I will say this. I don't know what "hot button" I have hit with you, but if you would read or perhaps reread my response, in no way have I been mean, or even judgemental with PG. I simply informed her, that her response failed to take into account that the people that responded to her were offering their best advice. If that is not what she wants then she needs to be specific as to what type of advice she deems acceptable.<P>Quite frankly I showed great restraint in posting to the both of you, because I didn't say to her the obvious. She will have to "get over it". Nothing anyone can say to her will solve her problem. She will have to address it within herself as does everyone who comes here for advice.<P>There are no magic bullets, incantations, or sayings that cause you to trust a spouse that has cheated you or lied to you, or hurt you in some other way. There are no magic bullets or insights that will cause PG, JR, Roscoe, perhaps yourself to get over what is perceived by them as a blemish on their marriages.<P>Everyone must come to their own accomodations with in the guidelines of their beliefs, their desires for a happy marriage, and the reality of their spouses existence. <P>In short, the must "get over it". No one saying that to them was trying to be mean and perhaps some could have taken more time to explain that this is the only option.<P>You see problems are only problems until people get tired of them. Then they walk away from them or they solve them.<P>PG and yourself have made some very disrespectful judgements about the people trying to post and help. You are left with those judgements I can do nothing about them.<P>So if you choose not to heed my advice, listen to my opinions please suit yourself. I am certain that no matter how graciously accepted, my opinion and advice have been and will continue to be ignored from time to time. That is fine with me. I have no personal stake in this. I attempt to do as little damage as possible, I attempt to help, that is all.<P>I do mean this jsg.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>I actually laughed out loud at this post. <P>I just *love* the irony of you telling me to "get over it". <P>Most people don't call trying to hide your poisonous biases "restraint", they call it "deceit". YOU are the one making assumptions and judgments about ME. I only think one poster, besides you, ever had any malice on that thread. I even believe that you started out with "good intentions".<P>But if you would call what you've been posting "nice" and "non-judgemental", I would hate to see you when you're not. You're acting like a bully. A bully in a corner. Name-calling and spitting out some bland platitudes about the "obvious". Your "advice" has become rude, crude, and socially unacceptable.<P>No, JL, there are no magic bullets for issues like this. Not even "get over it". But gee, that is sure easy advice to give, so why don't you say it one more time? <P>My "problem" has been greatly helped by the likes of jsg, Roscoe, and others. I feel a 1000 times better because of them. They have brought light where darkness once was. <P>YOU are the one who seems to feel the need to "simply inform" me (and us) with your so-called truth. The "truth" that we have heard a squillion times and has never helped us before, but when we hear it from you, Oh, That will be the time it sinks in! Oh, THAT was my problem the whole time, I was supposed to "GET OVER IT". Duh. <P>And you can't even take the hint that your behavior is not helping.<P>I am trying really badly not to hope that the next time something bad happens to you, someone tells you to just "get over it". <P>What a horrible, uncaring, uncompassionate thing to say.<P>Kick 'em when they fall down, JL. <P>PG<P>To jsg and Roscoe: The advice and posts that you have given have helped me SO much, I can't even begin to thank you. I only hope I can help somebody else in my position. If it were not for you guys, I would only have run in to people saying "get over it", I would never have talked to my husband, and I wouldn't be happy like I am today. Not even the meanness of a couple people can take away what you both have given me. A good dose of perspective and a little bit of compassion. <P>PS- jsg, thanks for being a real friend. I couldn't leave anybody to a bully either.

STOP!!!!!!<P>Enough of the bickering!!!!!!<P>I would suggest that everyone go read Heartpain's post in General Questions.<P>If we can not even be nice to each other how can we do a plan A at home????<P>I did want to say this tho. If you don't like what someone says you don't need to respond, just let it be. <P><BR>Personally I think both threads should be locked!<p>[This message has been edited by SuzzieQ (edited July 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dewayne,<BR>I'm with you here.<P>It's just getting too hard.<P>Plan A isn't about how you deal with your WS people!!!!<BR>It's about how you acr and react to EVERYONE you encounter!!!<P>Not that anybody will pay attention to that statement.<P>I'm being a bit harsh but most people who have read your post HAVE MISSED THE POINT ENTIRELY!!!!!!!<P>The advice that is being given on the boards by the more "regular" posters at this point is NOT GOOD ADVICE!!<BR>And when we the "old timers" try and chime in with our advice and experience we are ignored or told we really don't understand the situation at hand.<P>It's been said over and over and over again but they just don't get it!<P>I'm sorry for running off.<BR>I'm sorry for being harsh and rude...<BR>but I'm just too tired<BR>and it has nothing to do with MB burnout...<BR>I'm tired of the current state of the boards and don't know how to deal with it.<P>luv ya DeWayne<P>keep in touch you have my addy! <P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Paitentlove from heartpains thread.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>You see problems are only problems until people get tired of them. Then they walk away from them or they solve them.</B><P>Exactly, and I might add that this was precisely the way my situation with jealousy over my W's past worked out. It was a bone to gnaw at for awhile...maybe things were too smooth and I need some conflict in the plot, I don't know....but eventually it stopped being an issue.<P>I remember talking to my best man about it, expecting sympathy, and he laughed and said "Your poor wife. What a jerk you are." <P>That sort of broke through my personal fog on that issue.<P>I think you are right on the money, as usual, JL.<P>Mike<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by prettygarnet:<BR><B>JL, I actually laughed out loud at this post. I just *love* the irony of you telling me to "get over it".</B><P>I've met so many wonderful people here over the past year, including JL, and you wonder how such sweet people are possibly having relationship problems.<P>Then, there are other times.<P>

Mike C2: By kicking dirt at the vanquished, you have pushed my “hot button”.<P>You stand in the midst of a train wreck and congratulate the engineer. I wonder whether JL shares your pride in his performance. He could have chosen to let PG’s tirade pass, or he could have gently coaxed her back into line, but instead he rose to defend a friend, thus building on the conflict dynamic. His apparent popularity, surely intimidating to a “junior”, helped turn a bump in the tracks into the derailing that occurred. <P>JL created the impression that there is an “in-crowd” here over which he holds sway. His repeated offers to PG that an ominious “we” would boycott the thread and that she was free to go away leave me feeling on the wrong side of an unfriendly divide.<P>If everyone posting here who is only looking for sympathy and encouragement were to leave, you would solve the “server slowdown” overnight.<P>JL: Your logic always adds up. But your determination to be right in this case has prevented you from being helpful. PG may have overreacted. But then she is new here and on the defensive. <P>Have you demonstrated any self-consciousness? <P>BTW, the phrase “disrespectful judgements”, like the themes of the New Testament, should be read with humility, not used as a blunt instrument.<P>I am upset because this unusual conversation that was helpful not only to the participants, but probably to a few shy lurkers, will be difficult to restart.<P>Roscoe<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roscoe:<BR><B>Mike C2: By kicking dirt at the vanquished, you have pushed my “hot button”.</B><P>Bottomline: jealousy in a relationship over sexual past is a destructive force, a sign of insecurity, a recipe for divorce. There is no 'fix" the partner can offer. It has to come from the insecure partner suffering the attack of the green eyed monster.<P>Validating irrational jealousy through sympathy on this board only encourages it. Encouraging one to recognize it for the losing game it is the kind act.<P>I write this as someone who has precisely been through the "irrational jealousy over my partner's past" mill and gooten over it, and I got over it when a friend hit between the eyes with what a moron I was being. If that friend had reacted differently, fed or encouraged my insecurities, then maybe it would have whipped it up into a fatal issue for my marriage.<P>It all boils down to insecurity, and that is not an attractive trait in a relationship, and often is a destructive one. By validating it you encourage continued time and energy poured into it, relationship talks, arguments, etc, over something in the past for which there is NO FIX.<P>"Get over it" is exactly the tough love advice that is mandated in the situation. The fact that the recipient of the advice may choose to angrily reject it or respond with ad hominem attacks on the advisor doesn't make it the wrong advice. <P>

Mike C2:<P>Were you a virgin prior to committing to your wife?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsg:<BR><B>Mike C2: Were you a virgin prior to committing to your wife?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. <P>Way.<P>By way of background, the guy involved was the person I hated most on earth, and had actually physically fought several times in my youth. A jerk and a bully. I didn't find this little piece of history out about my W's relationship with him until I'd had three kids with her.<P>Bottomline: I had already married her, and that is all past. Were my emotions real? Yes. Was it productive to nurse them and feed them in search of an answer? No. There was a fork in the path...divorce or healing. What woke me up was my friend whapping me between the eyes and shocking me out of my self-pity.

Mike C2:<P>Well see, therein lies the problem. Your situation is not even remotely close to that of PB's. Your jealosy stemmed from hating the person that she had sex with, and not the fact that she had sex before meeting you. It is entirely different when you have not had sex but your spouse has.<P>We are not stupid Mike. We know that we need to "get over it." It has just been a wonderful experience to find other people that have gone through the same thing that I have. Unfortunately we are very small in numbers.<P>I do not mind receiving advice to "get over it" as long as it is not being given because the advisor feels that I am stupid for having the feelings that I do in the first place.<P>I know that I am very careful about giving someone advice on this site when I have not been what they are going through. That is why I rarely post anything in threads regarding infidelity. I have no idea what those people are going through. Therefore, I don't think any advice that I could offer would be taken seriously.<P>I do appreciate your point of view even though I disagree with it.

Hi ~<P>Two things:<P>My ex was a virgin when we married, and I was not -- in fact, far from it. It caused untold problems for the first five years of marriage, at least. In fact, in the end (after 20 years) he said it was a much bigger problem than I ever imagined. He wanted to know what it was like to be with someone else... and was jealous of me for knowing. Very destructive, in the end.<P>So, I hear you on that...<P>But about this particular thread:<P>JL doesn't need my defense, but I am giving it anyway. <P>I read the entire thread you are talking about, and I never once read into his responses anything other than his usual understanding and desire to help.<P>What am I missing?<P>By way of history, JL is one of the kindest, most thoughtful men on this forum, and one who has not given in to the fights, bickering, ganging up that has gone on off and on throughout the two years I have been here. <P>This thread is simply an attack, and a harsh one, at that.<P><BR>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited August 02, 2001).]

Nyneve:<P>Quotes such as the following made by JL must be examples of his "usual understanding and desire to help":<BR> <P> "Your interpretation is that you are of HIGH MORAL STANDING for you feelings." <P> "However, the last time I looked on of the main themes of the New Testament was the act of forgiveness and charity. Something you seem to be short of."<P> "If you don't want advice or suggestions, then don't post here."<P> "If it is just empathy you want, then I strongly suggest that you rely on your religious counsel for that."<P> "While people here are very empathetic to many situations, they are mainly posting to you to help. Not just pat you on the back and say "there, there, it will be alright"."<P> "So Ladies and Gentlemen, what is it? Do you have a problem you would like advice on? Or would you just like to talk to one another and validate your feelings about your spouses?<P> Just let the people here know. You will be left alone."<P>I do not want to get into a "bickering" match with you on whether or not JL is a good person. I just thought he was out of line by encouraging a poster to leave this site, a site that I am ever thankful for finding.

JSG: <P>You can dismiss other's experiences for not being 100 percent apples to apples, but it all comes down to jealousy about prior relationships, and it is a situation that you can't do anything about EXCEPT get over it. I assume most of you knew what you were getting into when you married...I only heard about this 5 years into my marriage. I know how strongly I felt about my jealousy, to the point where it almost broke up my family despite having 3 small chidren at that point. <P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by jsg:<BR><B>It has just been a wonderful experience to find other people that have gone through the same thing that I have.</B><P>Is that all you want? Empathy? Is that solely what these boards are for?<P>Destructive resentment over a spouses other entanglements, past/present/pre-marital or whatever is probably the single biggest recovery issue on these boards. <P>Perhaps if I'd had a bunch of people enabling and validating my jealousy rather than belittling it for the destructive force it was, I would have broken up my family with my festering negative emotions.<P><B>I do not mind receiving advice to "get over it" as long as it is not being given because the advisor feels that I am stupid for having the feelings that I do in the first place.</B><P>I wouldn't say that you are stupid for having the negative feelings...as I said, I had them too. It is what you do with them that indicates your intelligence. But that is just my opinion. Maybe the right thing is to dump your spouse and go find a virgin. Ooops...you won't be a virgin now for them, will you. Hmmm....<P><B>I know that I am very careful about giving someone advice on this site when I have not been what they are going through.</B><P>I don't think your post above to JL puts you in the position of giving anyone advice about behavior on this board. Personally, I'd rather hear from someone that has successfully <B>conquered</B> a similar problem, or someone that can shared professional counseling they have recieved on a problem, than merely have my pain "validated" by someone thrashing around lost in the same dilemma.<P>There are many wise people here who are familiar with the MB principles, have counseled with the Harleys, and have triumphed over various marital issues. Posts like the one above to JL does not help solicit their help.<P><BR>

AGAIN......<P>hello I am Wellmaiden...your friendly Moderator...<P>the mud slinging, rudeness, insulting tones and the holier-than-thou attitudes will stop now please...<P>Interfering or locking threads is not something I relish doing as I believe in and enjoy the free exchange of ideas opinions and advice.<P>Plan A is something we should be incorporating into our lives on a daily basis and using it with all people we meet....<P>I humbly suggest a little more plan-A-ing with each other..<P>agree to disagree......yes.<BR>respectfully disagree...yes.<P>what has been done on this thread and others.....no.<P>and personal attacks on members will NOT be tolerated...<P>Thank you for your time....please resume in a non-confrontational manner....<P>Wellmaiden<BR>MB Moderator - Other Topics<P>