After 6 yrs of deciet, he's finally come to his senses. Problem is that I'm emotionally divorced from our M. I love him, but I am too hurt to put my heart and life back out for him again. It's hard to watch 10 yrs go down the drain. We are good friends and have been through all of it, but I feel we've grown apart and I'm not willing to go through anymore. Lessons have been learned on both sides and he wants to work at it, but I can't. Is it possible that 2 people can be better off as friends. Has anyone been able to keep that boundary and be friends after divorce?

Boundary?......are you talking not getting intimate with the EX?? That is no problem for me, Im remarried......I also have no feelings for my EX other than just being her friend (at the most).

Are we talking about state boundaries here? 2200 miles by the mile marker and we're great friends as long as I don't get dragged back into her life.

To more directly answer your question, a friend of mine's wife had a sordid A and they split for 2 years. One day they met, went out, and slowly became good friends over the course of a year. He had all the papers but had just never set the court date. One day, they realized they still loved each other and got back together. Very inspirational... BUT, the key thing here is to notice that they were not together for 3 years.

Let me put it this way also... if I was dating you and you told me your x was your friend still, I'd look at you blink and wonder why on earth you'd be friends with someone that has caused so much hurt in your life. Barring no other revelations, I would wonder, "If I fall in love with this person, how can I compete with an x-spouse/friend on the sidelines?" Ultimately, I would break up with you. There's a difference between being polite because of visitation rights - and being polite because you're still in love or even just still friends. I'd have to conclude that you're either not over him or you're just crazy.

To sum up, your x is major baggage as far as moving forward with your future is concerned. I can't think of a single instance when you'll be with someone who loves you, and you'll say, "I talked with my x today and it was nice." where that wouldn't cast a pall of darkness over the moment. And, you think your x is going to want to be supportive of and be there for you while you're gushing about your latest love? Hmmm? Let him go or decide to give it another try.

I don't think you can continue to be friends. There's too much history, too much pain, and there is no context for a "friend" in your life if you wish to someday have something more than you ever had in your marriage. I suppose the question I'd toss back in conclusion is... If you still want to be friends with this person, why did you divorce him? Whatever your answer, lack of trust, pain, hurt, etc... apply those to your real friends and say, "If my girlfriend Sally did this, would I be friends with her?"

No, you wouldn't.

Hum...I guess it's fear that keeps me in this ambiguious state of turmoil. NO INTIMATE SEXUAL FEELINGS AT ALL- that's my problem! True! I wouldn't want a mate who had an x as a friend and have to deal with the "possibility" of a relationship flaring back up. Unfortunately, even with being separated for 1+ yrs, our lives are still so intertwined. Family, work, son, and emotional support. I just can't give him his EN. Don't have it in me. I could walk away from everything tomorrow if I didn't have the guilt of hurting his feelings. Not that mine mattered much to him before, but he truly has seen the devastation in his actions.
I'm a type 9 enneagram and thats just me, to care about others and keep peace. I don't like to lose friends. I was just hoping that it was possible to be better friends than married lovers.

Lyxa,
You mentioned a friend who was seperated for 3 yrs...did they move on in that time frame and then find their way back, or just wait? As you can see from profile, the paperwork has been in for a yr. and he's draggin feet on the parenting course. A way of manipulation to string me along because he's not convinced this is right. Maybe I filed out of control issues, since I didn't feel in control of anything. But I still don't feel like I'm in control. I'm afraid of the rollercoaster that happens one way or the other...

Lyxa,
You mentioned a friend who was seperated for 3 yrs...did they move on in that time frame and then find their way back, or just wait? As you can see from profile, the paperwork has been in for a yr. and he's draggin feet on the parenting course. A way of manipulation to string me along because he's not convinced this is right. Maybe I filed out of control issues, since I didn't feel in control of anything. But I still don't feel like I'm in control. I'm afraid of the rollercoaster that happens one way or the other...

beachchik,

there are always low, very low probability outcomes. . . that do occur, but they are rare. . .

don't rely on low, miniscule probability outcomes, deal with what you have, and go forward. . . hope is not a step for sucess, its just a state to stay stuck in. . .

learn how to identify the reasons why you contributed to the problem, either in action or by choices (you chose him). and how not to make the same choices again

wiftty

wiftty

She was living with her lover and then other lovers during that time. They happened to meet at a time when she didn't have anything going on and it was totally happenstance that they got back together at all.

He bankrupted (almost) himself to get sole custody of the kids, etc. And was working 3 jobs during that time to pay off debt incurred by the legal battle when they separated.

We've been extremely civil through all of this and have leaned on each other in the tough times. Aside from his enormous EN for SF, I feel like I did what I could in our M. It's hard to fill that need for him , while competing with some new fresh A. I tried that a few times and it got me no where. I could leave the M- we've said for years that it's felt more like a brother/sister relationship than a marriage, but we're both afraid of losing the friendship.
I feel like I love him enough to let him go, because I don't see myself changing enough to satisfy his needs. But I want the same respect from him, not to pry in my private life and persistantly chase me.
I've read so many posts on here where the WS were "fogged in" and the BS was waiting for it too lift, so they could move on. I feel horrable saying this but.... My WH is somewhat out of the fog, but I don't want it!

I was hoping to hear that there are success stories of Ex's who maintain friendships...or am I dreaming?

Beachchik
I went through a very bitter divorce that involved TROs, physical assault and an extramarital affair. I am ashamed to say at some point it was like a soap opera or even an episode of the Jerry Springer show. My divorce became final 3 months ago. Since then we have had cycles of hatred and cooperation. I cannot say we are friends. That is something that requires trust and we definitely do not trust each other. Nowadays we are cooperating, God knows how long it will last. Our child seems to do better when we don't argue. I think it's important to be a single voice in terms of issues concerning children but true friendship is very hard after a marriage breaks up. The best you can hope for is cooperation.

Beachchik, I went through a storybook nice divorce. Everything was very friendly, total agreement on all terms, after signing the papers he hugged me. He wanted to be friends, I did too. At the time it seemed like the least we could do, after 23 years together.

I have sort of switched perspectives, having lived through this. First thing is, that I realize that I'm mad at him for giving up on me and our M. (friends don't hurt friends). I also realized that the main reason I missed his company/companionship, was out of habit. It was his choice that I be somewhat isolated-- he liked me home, etc. Well this means I did not have friends to lean on-- and therefore missed him rather than just needed company.

I also have seen that I cannot move forward and build a new future for myself, if I am clinging to him and my past in any way.

At this time, I want to be civil, but I don't kid myself about being friends. I expect more from my friends. I want to think of him almost like I do a dearly beloved, but now deceased pet. Fond memories, but not part of my present or future.

Thanks for the input!
Squeak- How did you do it after 23 years? We've been together 10 and I see the friendship there, but there's so much hurt! I've read book after book and gone to IC/ MC for as long as I can remember!
I told him yesterday that we needed to finish the paperwork, because neither of us was "moving on". Of course he was now upset, because he had planned on getting rid of the GF based on "signals" I had been indirectly giving him. This sent him into a tailspin, because he had been trying so hard, with the exception of the GF to win me back. So, 1st out of his mouth was that I wasn't getting the money from the sale of our house. Fine! That legal paperwork for our business was going to be drafted...Fine! That I couldn't participate in his family functions, even if his parents invited me...FINE! That I would have to fend for myself and get my friends to help me with "manly tasks" that I couldn't handle, because he wouldn't do them for me....FINE!!! Now- He wasn't going to sit around and casually date....he is going to "actively pursue" a marriage partner...again FINE! He's a hurting child who doesn't understand the consequences to his actions and thinks that,just because he's been understanding to my feelings and has done some nice things that it's going to make everything all better!!!
Ok, now I've got that outta my system...why am I still so hung up on the way he feels??? I feel like I let him dictate my feelings too much...but he does have a point...if we could somehow work through this...we might be good together.
The grass isn't always greener on the other side! Is it!?
Thanks for letting me ramble!!!

beachik, IMO one finds out a great deal about someone in how they handle a divorce, in your case your H response is consistent with a narcissist, someone who is only concerned about you when it is in their best interest....this is invaluable information to know now, while you are young and can make a healthier life for yourself. He is not a "hurt" child, that is a euphemisim, and enabling behaviour.... he is and adult, and he wants you under his control, or you will be punished, his response was an aggressive effort to intimidate you into doing what he wants, and has nothing to do with love.....not good stuff methinks.

At best he spoke in petulant anger, but if so, he will recant and apologize, then treat you fairly in the divorce...if he doesn't do this, that tells you all you need to know. In addition when you have grave doubts as to the viability of an intimate relationship with someone you obviously set boundaries, deal breakers, etc. IMO a good boundary is divorce, one can always continue counselling, fidelity, and reconcilliation efforts then reconcile and remarry. In the meantime one has resolved all the economic issues, and custody (if applicable) issues, clearing the air to simply date each other and assess whether you would want to marry them from a position of choice. Divorce is a personal and social statement that the old marriage is done, you want no part of it, and a new one has to be pursued and created on it's own merits....more often than not it seems, most folks (if they did the work prior to divorce) come out of their own marital fog, and realize they made the right decision. Co-dependentcy is a huge problem IMO in marriages, and is the primary reason why many marriages lurch on remaining unfullfilling and unhappy for both partners. That may be why you are hung up on his feelings, you are a typical giver hooked up with a typical taker, your garden variety co-dependentcy.

beachchic,
I don't know if my H and I can be friends. He wants to start on a friendship, he said its what was missing in our marriage. I am willing to forgive him for all hes done to me, but to go through divorce with 3K's and a 1week old, with 6years of cheating and lieing and blaming, and critizing, I don't see how its possible to be friends. It hurts to much to know someone could have treated me so badly, just to move on with his life without a look back at me. He left me out of the hospital, (i was burned badly in a fire and am disfigured from my chin to my knees) come to find out the whole time in the hospital(6weeks) he was cheating, then I got home he moved out to live with another woman, not the same one he was cheating with. I have had problems with the women he has taken up with. My kids hurt so much cuz he's not around. He'd rather be with a female or a friend than to bother with us. He left me crying and in pain and 5months pregnant and did not care. He was so nasty mean to me. I try to talk to him about "US" all the time, but when I try he says I'm boring him, or he just hangs up on me. I have seen him less than 4 times in the last 2months.
I filed for divorce, I felt I had no choice. At times I think hes happy about it and other times I don't think so. I know for getting what he wants hes very unhappy. I want to work things out with him, want him to come home and be a family,to work through all the hurt. but to go through a divorce, and have it all end with no compassion towards me or my feeling...I'd be way to bitter to be nice to him let alone be his friend. NO WAY

Well, he did come back today and apologize for being an **S. He knows I can manage on my own, was lashing out because he was hurt.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sufdb:
[QB]IMO a good boundary is divorce, one can always continue counselling, fidelity, and reconcilliation efforts then reconcile and remarry. [QUOTE]

I never really saw divorce as a boundry to reconcilliation... I think it would be the end of the end for us. I get such strange signals from him. He's made it clear if I leave, he'll actively pursue a mate. So, that doesn't place me high up on his list. Then he tells me I'm ruining a possibly great thing, because I can't get beyond the past. Maybe to divorce and put an end to the past history is what is needed- A closure to a bad time.

I feel like I need a 2x4. My heart and my head keep playing tricks on me and I just don't know whether I'm coming or going! I get bold and determined when he's not around...then when he is I get weak. I feel awful about this too, cause I read so many stories on this sight about REAL trauma (JSHAW- my heart and prayers go out to you-I read your post earlier- Keep standing!) and people who want their spouse back, but they're not willing. Mine wants back, but I'M not willing. Based on the fact that the GF doesn't know he's been pursuing me (he's told me), doesn't give me confidence to think that he's changed that much.
SUF- Co-dependentcy is a huge problem IMO in marriages, and is the primary reason why many marriages lurch on remaining unfullfilling and unhappy for both partners. That may be why you are hung up on his feelings, you are a typical giver hooked up with a typical taker, your garden variety co-dependentcy.

I was in the military 10yrs and prided myself on being a strong minded, caring, strong willed person for the sake of my patients, but I think you've really hit it on the head. Know any good Co-Dep books that would fit this situation?

Co-dependent no more (can't remember author, will try to find it). But there are lots, it is a developing area or relationships getting a lot of lond overdue attention. Co-dpendentcy is tricky cause IMO relationships do include a kind of dependentcy closely related, call it interdependentcy, where instead of pulling/emabling each other into unhealthy behaviours, instead one is strength and support for healthy behaviours....I call it watching each others backs....sort of like two soldiers in a foxhole, bullets flying, enemy in any direction...knowing you can count on your buddy to pull his weight, and watch out for you (not boogie out to save his own butt when push comes to shove). A co-dependent (as they lay bleeding to death, shot in the back after partner boogies) saying, oh he couldn't help it, just got scared, he really meant to protect me, but when he was a little kid he got traumatized on halloween. And after the battle he runs frantically back, jumps down in the hole cradleing the dieing buddy, screaming for the medic, pulling the shirt off his own back and covering your bloody wounds, anguish all over his face....blah blah blah. Yeah he cares, he is dependable, when it suits him....and why not, cause with your last dying thought, you think about how much you love him, and you tell him you understand...do you get it beachik?

I don't know what kind of interactions you have, you have to assess it, but you can discern the truth about yourself, and your relationship, if you work at it....boundary books are really helpful too. Givers have no boundaries, and that is their equally dysfunctional contribution to a co-dependentcy.

IMO any marriage that cannot survive a divorce probably wasn't much of a marriage either. If people won't choose each other when they are free to do so, why would you want to be married anyways? Sometimes a marriage is so messed up, it cannot be unraveled without revisiting choice. There is simply too much baggage, game playing, manipulation, competeing agendas, and downright ignorance of who and what one is as a human being. A marriage is fraught with drama, expectations, fears, insecurities, as people struggle to find the truth through this morass of confusion they just stay lost and confused. Divorce is a significant boundary, and clarifies a lot of the ancillary issues, and power plays. If you divorce, and he starts chasing someone else cause he wants a mate, you clearly see he does not see YOU, he only sees what you do for him...that is a dubious foundation for reconcilliation. Sadly, far too often, marital reconcilliation actually seems to devolve into a power issue, no one wants to be rejected, or "lose" so they seek to keep "connected" but for the wrong reasons.

Suf- "foxhole buddies" I'll have to remember that one for future use.
Well, he just pleaded his case again. I think I'm going to have to insist that we don't talk until his GF is out of the picture. Past history dictates present course and I cannot dwell on it anymore. He gets too many needs from both of us. If he wants a relationship with us, I want HIM to make the 1st move before I'll think about a commitment. Leap of faith!

<<<I think I'm going to have to insist that we don't talk until his GF is out of the picture.>>>

I think this is wise, and the MINIMUM you can insist on in order to preserve your own self respect. IMO, to even consider reconciliation while the GF is in the picture, makes a mockery of you, and the relationship.

I'd suggest you read/listen to "Tough Love" by James Dobson....

Hang in there.

Jshaw... sounds like you should change your signature then... are you really in love and it's that he won't come back? I feel for you and I know this is hard. Time to cut your losses and move on.

On a different note, there is a fundamental issue of respect in a relationship. You never think about doing certain things because it:
- It is offensive to you personally.
- You know it's offensive to your spouse.
- You know if you did it, it would violate that special thing that holds you together.
- You know if you did it, it violates your integrity.
- And if none of those things, you know if you did it, the other person has enough backbone to leave you.

Friendships, relationships, partnerships... none of these things can exist without respect. Sometimes, we have to show that backbone and then, OMG! They see it and realize they're going to lose you... and as a control issue come crawling back. And, if you take them, how can they ever respect you? You fell for it! Haha sucker! And, once you leave, you always come back to muddied water and a dirty slate. Some of us can repress the bitterness... and what a dream to rebuild a better stronger relationship! I wish mine had worked out that way... but part of hindsight and MY past is seeing the incremental steps that brought me and my marriage to where I could walk away from it. And, in doing so, I now face a clean slated-future. I wouldn't trade that for the world!

I stress "MY" because it is my prayer that for at least some of you, your pain will be reconciled in the arms of your special someone.