Ok so some of you know my story some do not - quick recap - husband 10/12/01 tells me had affair - supposedly some stranger - totured me from then until like March 02 - going out all of the time - not changing his phone - accusing me of not believing him etc... Really bad - then in April 2002 - I intercept 5 phone calls one afternoon from the lady that lives next door - last one - Hi hun it is me I am sorry we couldn't hookup I really wanted to hook up - OK final straw for me complete freak out - I am sure you can imagine - anyways - he moves out doesn't want to be married - blah - blah - but of course it has nothing to do with the lady next door they "were only friends" - then 09/18/02 - we get divorced - still all of this time I am struggling with his he really with the lady next door - I mean I have the proof phone logs, people seeing them togther - "hookin up" etc... But still he denys - actually is mad most of the time because I will not believe him - it has been one knock down drag out fight after another - She is still living next door to me - so it is a constant reminder - well yesterday finally after all of this time - I went to his apartment first time I have ever been there - and yup you guessed it her car was there - so now I have the truth (which I have really known all along staring me in the face) - so I basically called up and left on his answering machine which I am sure they both heard loud and clear what I thought about them toturing me with lies for the last two years... So now today - I am pretty much done - he emailed me and said Hi whats up and nice message - I ignored it ... But my question is - two years + have gone by - we are divorced - why does he continue to lie to me, Why did he just sit the kids down three weeks ago and say he had no girlfriend and he has nothing to do with the lady next door??? - Why still the lies - they lie to her family, my family, his family - everyone ??? Does anybody understand this??? I mean I wavered for two years wanting to believe but deep down knowing the truth - I am finally ready to walk away and never have any kind of contact with him again - but again - why do you think they are still lying???

I wish I could have a solid answer for you.......My EX denied she knew OM before we separated.....BS! I have cell phone records of over 50-75 calls to one particulare number that I didnt recognized.....she still denied she was talking to him. Waywards are just stupid, habitual liars whom think they are married to idiots.

Thank you starting over - the thing is that two years ago if he had come deal and I could have been able to deal with it... But yet he was a coward - and I begged him to tell me the truth - but always in my mind I knew the truth - it was just my heart that didn't want to believe that he could have betrayed me so awfully -- and lived with himself - I mean I can hear him going over and over - that I was driving myself crazy he had nothing to do with her - blah blah - and I actually on some level believed him - that was what has made all of this so hard... Hopefully now that I have seen the truth - I will truly be able to let go with no regrets on my part as I have done nothing wrong - and they have to live with their actions and how it will affect everyones lives..

maw,

manipulators believe that if you are told enough times about their reality, you will believe it. However, there is also this passive aggressive stuff, where they don't tell you what they are doing, wanting, but they act out what they really want so as to "not hurt anybody" Its the flawed logic of getting what you want, hurting people, and then trying to convince the rest of the world and themselves, that they are right. . .

its how manipulators work in the world. The more they can convince people, the more ral their world can become. . . you need to ignore their reality and just believe your reality. . . no matter how they try to change it. . .

and tehy try to change your reality to what they want to have their reality to be. . . its very bizzare. . but that's what its all about. .. also, its part of a disorder on how to protect themselves from being wrong, and still being selfish. . .

wiftty

Wow, Wiftty!

I have thought before that my STBX did the "passive-aggressive" thing in our marriage, bu I guess I didn't really know completely what passive-aggressive behaviour was. But your description fits him exactly, and explains a lot.... well, as well as any of this CAN be explained!

All the lies, the hiding of things, the deceptions, and actively seeking out other people through personals while assuring me the whole time that everything was "fine" with us, even though I could tell it wasn't. When I asked him why he handled it all this way, the most common answer was that he didn't want to hurt me. And no matter how many times I told him that continuing to lie to me would hurt me far worse than any truth he could tell me, he would continue to lie. Sometimes even when I told him flat out I knew and had proof of the truth, he continued to lie - still does. Why? Because he doesn't want to hurt me.......

ARGH!!!!!!!

Ok, so having a name to pin on it doesn't help a whole lot, but it does help to know that I wasn't going nuts, that this IS rather bizarre behavior, and that I'm not the only one who has had to live through it. I think that's one of the worst things - I know my STBX even tried a few times to make me think my memory was going, and that I was going a little nuts. Insisted things that I KNEW had happened never did, and that I mis-remembered all kinds of events. I was really beginning to question my own sanity, until I realized that I never had those kinds of memory problems at work, or at church, or when dealing with my family. The only time my mind (supposedly) did a complete wig-out on me was when I was dealing with him.

WIFTTY ---

There is just something about that label. I'm sure it fits many people, and I believe that if the person knows they are THAT - and chooses, they can change. Which would make sense, and it would help to make a difference in many marriages. However, when the OP is the one who knows what the name is, and there is nothing they can do to change the other person, it gives them a sense of IMPOSSIBILITY. It's like feeling that I should be able to do something about this, so I keep trying forever (definition of insanity - it fits me to a *T*). So, I guess my question here is --- what good does the label do - other than to make the non-affected spouse feel guilty for leaving an impossible relationship.

Not that I'm encouraging anyone to leave - because marriage is meant to endure - but it sometimes doesn't.

I guess I'm just thinking how little difference it made in my life to know what they called the idiocy that made my ex behave so stupidly. Like he didn't have a choice?

Jan

Maw64
I don't know why some people do this but I'm still going through it with my ex. Even after he moved in with the OW he continued to deny the affair. I've moved to the west coast and he moved along with me due to the custody arrangement (I made a lot of concessions just to get him to agree to move away from where the OW was because I couldn't handle living there anymore). Now he keeps going back to where she is every 10-12 days. He claims he is going to get his mail! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Like you, I don't understand why he keeps lying, it's not as if I care what he does anymore.

Penguin
My ex also tried to make me out to be a paranoid schizophrenic. He kept telling me everything was happening in my mind. Well surely him moving in with her and his car being parked in front of her house wasn't in my mind. Him and her coming to my house to get his stuff wasn't in my mind. His frequent trips to the town she lives in aren't in my mind! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

My ex also has a passive aggressive personality which is very annoying. I don't know if all of these lies are just due that or some other god awful pathology but I'm glad I don't have to live with him anymore

sj

I think that the moniker of passive-aggressive is a very helpful label. Because in the world in which these behaviors occur repeatedly, they can drive a person completely crazy. By allowing a label to be attached to the behaviors and a pattern to be recognized, we are able to not only understand that certain things have occurred, but also to predict that they will continue in a certain manner. This allows those of us who have to deal with certain people with these disorders to 'run actions through a filter' prior to just accepting them as fact. It allows us to say, if this is a passive-aggressive behavior, I will expect this to occur and we can then take precautions about what we expect.

For instance, understanding that my ex will invariably decide that she won't watch my boys when she normally would, whenever I have made plans and she finds out about them. This allows me to make additional contingency plans that will allow me to continue with my plans, regardless of her choice to bow out. This occurs when I have a meeting at work typically and I ask her several days in advance if I can pick them up an hour later. There is a yes... followed by an 'Oh, I can't... I have plans' a day or so before the meeting. I always have an additional person who has stated they will watch my boys when ever I need to do something... and it is rare that I am EVER not with them.

Passive-aggressive is a label that matches both my ex and her mother to a T. She can see EVERYTHING her mother does, but thinks that she does nothing similar. When I would point it out, she would blow up at me for even thinking it. Well, I guarantee that she is the poster child for passive-aggressiveness. Incorporating everyone she comes into contact with, friends, co-workers, children. No one is immune.

So... I think that labels can be Highly useful if correct. They allow us to understand and predict behavior. Understanding why someone does certain things in such a destructive way repeatedly and tends to not learn from the consequences.

Wiffty - OK I agree with the hoping that I will eventually believe the reality that he believes - but when does enough become enough - Or how long is it going to take...??? I mean to stop from driving myself crazy??? I have asked so many times - you know what it is over - if you want me to accept this - then you know what come clean admit the truth.. My problem is really what do I care ??? Except what it will do to my kids ????

Penguin - Oh the crazy thing... I am still thinking that I am crazy - part of me says ok well maybe ??? but in reality I am thinking how stupid does he really think that I am ??? It really is enough to drive one person crazy... I mean everyone looking in on the situation is like give me a break ?? I mean he actually told me that this was the first time she had ever been to his house - so I am to believe that after him living there for one year and us being divorced for one year - the one night I finally go over there because I need to clarify it once and for all in my mind and she is there - and he says it was a coincidence - I mean really we are divorced it shouldn't matter - just for gods sake come clean once and for all... I think that I could truly move on once and for all if I just heard the words from his mouth you know???

sj trouble - I believe he had a choice to do what he did??/ And to live his life the way he wanted to - but why continue to lie ??? Why not just admit it so we can all move on and not question our sanity...

Ruby 1 - Oh I like the mail thing??? I mean really give me a break - it makes me wonder why they think we are so stupid... I just really wanted to believe somewhere in my heart I guess that he really couldn't have done all of this to me - but I know in my mind - that all of these coincidences don't just happen - you know???? I am thinking they could get married and deny it all the way down the isle - the question for me just becomes how do I accept the fact that they did lie to me and yes it has been and continues to be to me the ultimate betrayal - yet they don't think enough of me to tell me the truth...

Formerly confused - yes we can label them and expect how they will react and what they will lie to us about and know the consequences - but how do we make ourselves totally truly believe that it is them and not us??? See I tend to waver and actually want to give him the benefit of the doubt on occasion but know - what am I nuts??? But you know somedays - that is how I feel nuts.. I went from this nice normal person - who's life was actually quite content to being completely blindsided by all of this crap... It is hard to really pick up and move on ......

MAW~
Many years ago, I could have written your post EXCEPT that I was happy to be rid of him (serial cheater). Since I knew about his previous affairs, I could not imagine why <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> he would lie and say that he wanted a divorce "JUST BECAUSE" he was unhappy. Oh, I asked alright. I asked over and over again. He swore up one side and down the other that there wasn't anyone else <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . He even went so far as to move in with someone he didn't care for (boss's son) for about 6 months. Yep, I was, finally, buying it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Because of all his denials, and absent evidence to the contrary, I came to believe him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> though ALL my friends thought I was crazy given his history.

But he was very clever. He didn't even "date" until I started dating. He didn't introduce the woman to the children until I introduced the children to a man I was dating. And then lickety-split, they bought me out of the house and moved in together and the next thing I knew, they were married.

In the midst of a disagreement, years later, I asked in sheer exasperation, "how long have you known HER anyway?" Turns out he'd "known her" a good 2 years before he "should have" if you get my drift. By then, I'd been remarried for 8 years, but it still hit me right between the eyes. Finally, a whole lot of things made sense <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

The reason he lied? He wanted to keep their relationship "clean." He didn't want to taint her in the eyes of his children, his parents, his siblings or our friends. Makes perfect sense when you think about it.

I REALLY have,
BeenThereMyself

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wiffty - OK I agree with the hoping that I will eventually believe the reality that he believes - but when does enough become enough - Or how long is it going to take...??? I mean to stop from driving myself crazy??? I have asked so many times - you know what it is over - if you want me to accept this - then you know what come clean admit the truth.. My problem is really what do I care ??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your problem is that you want his reality to agree with your reality, becuase you can't understand/comprehend his reality, therefore, you want to force him to surrender to your reality. . .

they don't work that way. . . they have their reality, you have yours. Both can exist without agreement, you just need to believe yours and not get swayed by his. . . and learn to realize that his is not yours, and never will be. ..

you learn to accept what you don't understand.

wiftty

Been there myself - well he can try to keep the relationship Clean as you say - but it won't happen because I have had the evidence - and the evidence I had it just took a while for it to click that it was indeed the woman who lived next door all along - yup he denies it - and says they just started dating - nope I don't believe - would it make me feel any better if in reality they did just start dating.. No - they are two very selfish - backstabbing people - that in actuality had they come clean two years ago maybe this would have been alot easier to deal with - but due to the continual lying - I am afraid they will never be accepted as a couple - they have denied and lied to everyone and anyone...I am glad that you have moved on - I hope to someday also...