It is sad, but I admit I am staring at a potential separation and divorce. My wife wants it and I don't.

Is there anyone who's been through a divorce in California or come close?

I know the basic laws in California and how things get divided when there is a dispute. But I also understand that the State pretty much takes a "hands off" approach if the parties can negotiate their own agreement and terms of "who gets what and how."

My wife seems to want to be collaborative and work together in the process of an eventual divorce.

So I'm looking for creative ways that anyone can provide in terms of how they preserved certaina assets, the house, shared the kids, and minimized the overal financial damage to all concerned.

Help.

Hit the bookstore or Library.
There are many books on how to do a divorce yourself, including custody arrangements.
Anything you can work out between yourselves will be infinitely better than what the courts would determine.

I highly suggest you find a Local Support Group and the following books:
Mom's House/Dad's House
How to Help your children Cope with Divorce the Sandcastles Way

Whatever you do, make sure the children know that they are not the cause, and give them permission to love each of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever you do, make sure the children know that they are not the cause, and give them permission to love each of you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh????? You have my permission to love me??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there anyone who's been through a divorce in California or come close?

I know the basic laws in California and how things get divided when there is a dispute. But I also understand that the State pretty much takes a "hands off" approach if the parties can negotiate their own agreement and terms of "who gets what and how." </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was divorced in California, nearly 15 years ago. The courts were completely "hands off" and my x and I negotiated ALL of our issues, ourselves. We had assets (real estate and other investments) and 3 children under the age of 10.

My x did not hire an attorney (huge mistake on his part) but I did. I wrote up our agreement and my x and I signed and notarized it. Then I gave it to my attorney. He drew up the papers and filed them with the court. We had to sign those documents as well. Neither my x nor I set foot in a courtroom. It took 6 months, once I filed. Our divorce cost less than $1500. I had other friends who used my attorney. They had similar assets and custody issues, but since my x and I were in agreement on the desire to divorce, we cut through a lot of the game playing often associated with the process. My friends paid upwards of $15,000-$20,000 for their divorces.

I will be honest and tell you that I did play hardball with my x (he was a serial cheater, who did leave for the ow). He didn't understand the nuances of what he was agreeing to, until long after the fact. By then, it was too late. Truth be told, he figured he was TOO SMART, to need an attorney or to read the document I prepared. So here's my advice. Hire an attorney to look over the document that you and your wife prepare. That small amount of money, can save you a fortune in the long run. My x was required to continue to pay me alimony even after I remarried, is just one example of the kind of stuff he agreed to and came to regret. I didn't know about the ow at the time, but he was so eager to be with her, that he just wasn't paying attention to the details. She got him. I got the assets. So do be careful.

Good luck.

-BTM

I don't live in California, but in Hawaii, it's pretty much the same...hands off. Also, I don't have kids, but what I'm going to say regarding finances might apply to the kids as well.

My X and I divided our finances like this: Let's say we together made $100,000 per year. Of that amount, my earnings were 39% and his were 61%. That was our "magic formula."

We took the formula and applied it to all of our outstanding bills...i.e. his college loan, my car loan, etc. and divided them up for who pays what. Things other than usage bills (i.e. electricity, gas, food, etc.) that each of us would pay separately as needed.

As well, we applied it to all of our current paid off expenses that were acquired jointly i.e. the pets, the house, house maintenance, etc....things that we weren't going to split up, yet we had acquired jointly. We decided not to split up the pets, so I still have the dogs and cats, but he pays a portion of their care.

Are ya still with me?

Anyway, we totalled all that up and came up with our magic numbers (based on the formula), then made the lump sum expenses work into that. Like my car loan: I took and put it in my name, but he's still paying a portion of that via his 61% lump sum.

Also, for the kids: Let's say they live with her. You figure out approx. how much "extra" that would cost than if she lived alone and figure that amount into her % owed on their care, and you pay your % owed. Then if the kid needs something extra and above, split it via the magic formula.

It seems to have really worked well for us. I don't believe in 50/50 because if we would have remained married, he would have contributed MORE than 50% toward the finances and I would have contributed LESS than 50% and I think any buy-outs, bill payoffs, etc. should be based on the magic formula because that is how it would have been handled, if we had stayed together.

I hope this makes sense. Also, it was easier for me because all the furniture, etc. stayed at the house, where I live. Hey, he's the one who left and didn't want any of it...oh well.

Hope that helps and that I explained it good enough. :-)

Dang --- I was waiting to hear what 39% of a pet was... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sorry -- my ex chose to just leave - not contact me and not support anything - so I got it all, four kids, the house, the vehicles, the life, the debt, the bills, the income (mine), and anything else that came along....

Well, he kept his gf's, his pay checks, his attitude, and his anger... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm loving my life better and better every day --- I love my kids.

My suggestion to you would be to look at the best interests of your children and work to negotiate the best deal in their interests. Focus on what's right - not on each other and the problems. Maybe you can even work on the marriage (that would be my choice)....

Blessings,

Jan

OK GSN, my advice was based on some of the books written for younger children. Many kids think that one parent hates the other parent and that they can't talk about their parent or their love for them.
Most books advise telling children that they can show love to both parents, and express their feelings, even in the others presence.

You dont' know what your child is hearing at the other house, you can only give them the tools to show them how to be emotionally healthy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ms.O:
<strong>
My X and I divided our finances like this: Let's say we together made $100,000 per year. Of that amount, my earnings were 39% and his were 61%. That was our "magic formula."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah I think I got it... Here's a little more info on our situation:

Up until now my wife has been a freelance graphic designer who works from home. So her income varies from year to year.

Last year I would say the GROSS earnings were probably 75% me and 25% her. Other years it's been more heavily weighted towards me.

Neither of us can afford to buy the other out of the house. But I think we would like to keep it as long as possible for the children's sake. Neither of us wants to lose the tax advantage of the house altogether. So I'd like to think "out of the box" in terms of how we could save the house even AFTER a potential divorce goes through. Maybe it's not possible, but I tend to think anything is possible if you think long and hard about it.

If she gets this full time job she's going for, her income will increase dramatically. So will daycare costs, but there will still be more income TOTAL. So part of me wants us to wait and see what our expenses are over a couple months and what each of us is able to afford.

The house is, obviously, the biggest asset with the most equity. Selling it would net a lot of money for both of us -- but likely NOT enough for us to each buy another house in the same area. So there is *some* incentive for at least one of us to stay in the house.

I did get a free consult with a lawyer a couple weeks back and he discussed something called a "defered sale" -- where you agree to sell the house "down the road" at some later date or event... but then it get's tricky in terms of how much the OUT spouse gets back if they are still contributing to the payments. I don't know.

I'm still hoping we don't have to go down this road, but I'm trying to be as inventive, cooperative, and collaborative as I can if it does happen.

Ultimately I do want what's right for the kids. Her too -- but mostly the kids.

Just so you know, if she engages a lawyer, they will advise her to protect herself. Many books actually state that wives may want to postpone getting a full time job until after the settlement, for the appearance of making less money. I'm not biased here, I'm a working mom.
But it is a consideration. In addition, a friend who settled after getting her new FT job, was laid off shortly afterward, and the settlement would have been significantly different had she not gone back to work.

Get thee to a library.
One book I remember buying was actually called "The New Creative Divorce".
Luckily, I had a discount bookstore near me at that time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The house is, obviously, the biggest asset with the most equity. Selling it would net a lot of money for both of us -- but likely NOT enough for us to each buy another house in the same area. So there is *some* incentive for at least one of us to stay in the house. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My x bought me out of the house by refinancing it. Assume an original mortgage of $200,000, which has been paid down to $175,000. If the current fair market price is $325,000, that makes the equity $150,000 ($75,000 for each of you). If you buy her out, you can refinance the current balance of $175,000 + her $75,000 equity and the new mortgage is only $50,000 more than the original. Interest rates have decreased substantially over the past couple of years. You may find a payment on a new $250,000 loan that is less than the payment on the orignal $200,000 loan.

Of course, depending on the REAL numbers, in your case, this may not be an option. I know property values in some parts of California have appreciated beyond all imagination. Trying to refinance $500,000 in equity, for instance, would hardly be a feasible solution.

I also know that keeping a house is not always beneficial to the children. My x and his wife (his former ow), still live in the old family home. Of course, when they got married, his wife wanted to make it "her home" too. She switched the kids bedrooms, putting the 2 girls together when they came for visitation. None of my children shared a room before the divorce, nor after it in MY home. I have 2 daughters and a son. My children did take it "personally" when they no longer recognized the spaces they'd had input into choosing and decorating. Eventually, they started making excuses not to "visit" with their dad. I continued to insist for YEARS, but finally their dad said, "I don't want them here if they don't want to be here." They quit visiting when my son turned 14. His sisters were 12 and 9.

Also, my current DH and I moved into the home that his children had lived in. It was a nightmare when they came to visit and saw my children sleeping in their old rooms. We sold that house as soon as we could, and built a new home for the family. We even moved to a different citu, so his daughters weren't faced with passing by "their old schools" "their old friends' homes," "their old favorite restaurants" (I'm sure you get the picture). His daughters, who are now adults, have mentioned, to me, how much happier THEY became, once my children and I did not live in the home they'd shared with their parents. Just something to think about.

-BTM

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: BeenThereMyself ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BeenThereMyself:
<strong>Of course, depending on the REAL numbers, in your case, this may not be an option. I know property values in some parts of California have appreciated beyond all imagination. Trying to refinance $500,000 in equity, for instance, would hardly be a feasible solution.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The REAL numbers for us would likely be difficult.... We estimate that the EQUITY in the house is likely close to $300,000. We still owe $250,000. So I would have to assume a total liability of $250,000 + half the equity (150,000) = $400,000 + loan. Possible, but not likely. And she would never agree to have the kids live with me.

We'll see how this plays out...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by newly:
<strong>Just so you know, if she engages a lawyer, they will advise her to protect herself. Many books actually state that wives may want to postpone getting a full time job until after the settlement, for the appearance of making less money</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understood. At this point she has not engaged a lawyer -- she's only consulted with one on her basic rights. I have faith that she would be upfront with me about job situations, and that we could work through this collaboratively.

I would not be able to cover her medical benefits after a divorce goes through. So in some ways it is to her benefit to EVENTUALLY get a full time job that can provide her with medical benefits. I can always cover the kids and would be ordered too.

The child support #s would be based on the current situation. And I would want the child support $$ to be re-asessed if her job situation were to change and her income to rise significantly. I want to do right by the kids -- but if her income goes up big time, then I want to protect myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Originally posted by recovering_dad:
Yeah I think I got it... Here's a little more info on our situation:

Up until now my wife has been a freelance graphic designer who works from home. So her income varies from year to year.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a Graphic Designer too and I think if you take an average of her last three years' income, you could get a pretty fair perctage to use in the formula.

Also, if her income changes dramatically, I would say you should re-figure the "magic formula" per that change or maybe put a clause in your divorce agreement that you review it every year or something like that.

My x's income has increased waaaaay more in the past few years (than mine has, but I haven't pushed to have our formula adjusted. I actually would like, at some point, to not have to depend AT ALL on any help from him. However, he help get us/me into the financial situation I'm now in, so I figure it's only fair that he help me out until such a time as I re-marry, or can afford to not depend on him.

I don't feel too bad that he pays a larger percentage than me, because he's actually living with the OW and sharing expenses with her, so in essence he's "married" again and has a dual income, unlike me.

But I don't like pushing these issues; not because I'm not worth it, but because I want to be as disconnected from him/them as possible.

Hope this helps. I know with issues of children, it's a whole nother ball game. Hang in there.

¸.·´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ ..·´
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·-:¦:- Aloha, Ms.O -:¦:-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And she would never agree to have the kids live with me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My children didn't live with my x either. But, they came to hate "visitation" in the old family home (which their dad and step-mom remain in). Perhaps if I'd remained in the house, they wouldn't have had the issues that they had when visiting their dad in it. And I know my step-children loathed visiting DH and me in their old home. It can be harder than many parents imagine. Kids can and do become very territorial about their spaces. My son was bereft when his "old" room was painted a different shade of blue. Even though he had his "own" room in DH's and my new home, he resented that he had to see his "old" room changed. He was 14. Now he's 24. He hasn't stepped foot in the old house in 10 years. I don't think he ever will, again.

-BTM

RedHat is one BS who just went through a D. He is in CA. Maybe he can help.

I will give him a holler <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

My OnLine sis told me to lurk here ...

recovering_dad,

I live in San Mateo County & still in court for financial settlement. Go to my profile if you want to read it. Email me your phone# if you want to talk.

First, there are 2 software programs that are used in CA. Usually the Judge decides which one he/she will use to compute. You could actually buy that program or your lawyer has it ... if your laywer doesn't have it you better start looking for a new lawyer. It is impersonal, plugged in your data from I&E (Income & expenses) come out the SS & CS. However the judge could over ride the computation by rejecting some expenses or in rare cases just order you (ground for appeal/trial).

Second. All assest & debt (Schedule A&D) are divided 50-50 in value, physically you could negotiate it.

Third. Depend on your county, if there is child involve they will send you to FCS (family court services) to establish/mediate child custody before the first court date. They will establish temporary CC/CS/SS and gave you another date again.

Having say this ... you have to remember, the laywer is NOT working for you !. They know eveyone including the opposing counsel !. If they have to choose between you & their R w/ the judges/opposing counsel they will choose their R. You just a client in a day job. If you have to go to court ... both of you loose but sometime you have to. If your W is not hostile then you have some options.

Get a mediator to mediate, in my county the first few hours are paid by your taxes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Then paid a lawyer for you to review it and paid another lawyer for your W to review it. If they tell you that they could do better ... get a second oppinion.

Second option is get a Collaborative Lawyer. This is actually gaining momentum, one lawyer will work for both of you ... kind of lawyer/mediator.

Again if your W is not hostile you could do that otherwise YOU HAVE TO GET A LAWYER.

Now let get back to MB stuff .... WHAT HAVE YOU DONE SINCE MAY ?. Do you ammend your W ? How much MB have you learn ?. 6 months of good plan A would give you a chance. Have you get MB conseling ? it is much cheaper than paying retainer.

-rh-

I'm just bumping this because the advice is good. I'm just starting the divorce process in California and I need all the help I can get.

If anyone is an expert on debt, post away. My WH spent 1000's on OW during the past year...lots on the credit card...and I need to get these expenses to his side of the ledger.

I'm also concerned about health benefits since I'm now covered under his employer, but I'm working part-time where none is available to me.

And, yes, I already post on the "general questions" but I'm reading old posts over here looking for divorce/legal topics that pertain to my sitch.