So as not to hijack any other thread, I thought it would be nice to have a devoted thread concerning this topic. I know that several people view the topic of forgiveness and what that means differently. I am one who has questioned some people's view as they have questioned mine. I will tell you up front, I have read, studied, and prayed and feel that I have some answer for MYSELF. I KNOW that I might be wrong as easily as I might be right, and being that I want to be as close to God's way of meaning and thinking as possible, I hope that straight forward discussion of this topic with respect for each other's views could help us all in understanding and perhaps all of us becoming a little closer to what God is meaning for us with his word. I, for one, know that although several things seem concretely stated, that I have heard so many differing opinions that I am less sure, or at least want to better understand why people believe the way they do.

I am not doing this to 'change' views... except perhaps my own. I would like to keep this as 'real' as we can. I know that personal occurances tend to help form our 'reading' of the scripture. I do not want to 'condemn' anyone who might have divorced for reasons other than infidelity or abandonment. I understand those issues and also know that I have no answers.

I am hoping to keep this thread fluid. Discussing issues as they come up about our beliefs and why they have formed. Initially, I am hoping to tackle an issue that has arisen concerning differences in our thoughts about forgiveness, repentance, and rules.

So...

What are your beliefs about how forgiveness is designed according to God. Is is a 'Ask and you are forgiven... one shot deal, never to have any meaning again? ie the particular issue of divorcing as an adulterer/ess and then repenting. Does that mean that you can remarry someone other than your former spouse?

Another topic... does forgiveness with true repentance 'remove' all further consequences for your actions prior to repentance. ie... you are an adulterer/ess and truly repent... does God (and I know NO ONE knows for sure, but how do you feel) Does God just completely forget what has happened... I guess what I am asking is that whether your road ahead after repentance will have anything to do with your past... (THIS IS NOT WELL EXPRESSED by me and I am sorry if what I am trying to say isn't getting across.)

And finally, the thorny issue of whether remarriage after divorce is allowed? Is this only allowed for the 'wronged' spouse, the 'abandoned' spouse or can you divorce... repent... and remarry regardless of the scriptural requirement to reconcile or be single, because you have repented your prior sins. (Not sure this came across either.)

Lets keep this wholesome and non-judgemental. We will all have different ways of thinking about this, and I would very much enjoy hearing your viewpoints and why you believe them. This is a topic that I sorely would like to better understand. I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on it, however, I also understand that there are so many others out there who have similar feelings and their viewpoints differ.

Thanks... FC

FC -

From what I have gathered, forgiveness is more about the individual who is forgiving, rather than the person to whom the forgiveness is directed to. It is about letting all the bitterness/angry/yucky feelings that the other person conjures up in you go. Kind of like detachment. Usually it happens when you are finally ready to only worry about your own personal relationship with God and others and not worried about what anyone else thinks - especially the person whom you are forgiving. Otherwise you begin to live for other's approval and not God's or your own. Remember - when you die - it's only you and God meeting, not you and the rest of the world - so you only need to make sure that you are doing right with God.

Also, there is a difference between faith and religion. Religion has all the rules, but when it comes down to it - as I said before - it's between you and God and so you ultimately need to follow your moral conscience. Because say the church was doing something wrong - like say in the case of Catholic history - selling indulgences - if you knew it was wrong, then you would be wrong for participating in it, even though it was sanctioned by the church.

About marrying again. There are many diiferent views, but I'm Catholic, and this is my take.

It takes two to live a sacramental marriage. Although we say until death do us part, unfortunately some people, for whatever reason - pscycological, medical, emotional etc. seem to flip out during the marriage - or actually it isn't that something suddenly appeared in them during the marriage - it's more like there has been something ingrained in them since their childhood that seems to only surface during the marriage, which makes them, for whatever reason, unable to commit to the marriage relationship in the way that they promised to do.

When this happens, the church, at least my church, does not believe that you have to be tied to a person who has shown that they are not able or willing to participate in the marriage relationship. It's not healthy to be tied to someone who is not healthy - it's not good for the kids, or for our families, or for us. Can't believe that Jesus would want us to be miserable for the rest of our lives because our partner has fallen to sin. We all have free will, and when one makes a choice not to follow God(ie love one another) then there is nothing we can do to force them to do it, and therefore God will have something else, usually better, in store for us. Because God is love and He is good. And the positive things come from Him and the negative do not.

Any how, I tried very hard to save my marriage, but after two years and working through the annulment process, I have learned that I was looking through rose colored glasses at a picture of a marriage that I wanted to see and not the reality that was. God was not the center of our lives and my ex was not and is not a good person. And I see all the way around how lucky I am that God saved me from that relationship so that my entire life wasn't miserable. It is also good for the kids, so that they do not repeat an unhealthy cycle of behavior. They now know what a healthy relationship is like.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

K

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</small>

Some reflections of mine:
1. Forgiveness is not the same thing as tolerance. Forgiveness is for events of the past. Tolerance is for what occurs in the present. My H kept saying, "It's all up to Kathy to forgive me." I knew that was wrong. He needs to change so that this doesn't occur again in the future; otherwise, he is asking me to tolerate.

2. Forgiveness takes one. Reconciliation takes two. I can forgive him and divorce him. Forgiveness frees me from being bitter about the past and allows me to live in the present.

3. Actions have consequences. There will always be a residual effect of the affair. The WH must live with memories of the fantasy that is not and may someday decide try to repair the damage that is so great. Like a vase that is broken and repaired, it will never be the same no matter how much care and effort is put into the repair. The affair did much more damage than the abuse, in my opinion. At least the abuse was between us. With the affair, he left without telling me he was leaving.

4. I don't want to sound holier than the pope. Two different priests have told me I have clear grounds for annulment. That doesn't matter to me. I won't remarry. A friend talked to me about taking on the cross of Christ. I said that I felt that it was more like a refiner's fire. For whatever reason, I chose to marry this man. I made a life-long commitment of fidelity to him. He did not keep his commitment. I don't think that releases me from my commitment. I don't need to be in his presence in order to keep that commitment, but I do think I need to honor it as long as we both shall live. That gives me quite a lot of incentive to work on the M; however, I realize that I cannot save our marriage by myself. If he isn't willing to build a marriage of mutual benefit and care, then I need to be apart from him while honoring my commitment to him. At some point in the future, I will be available if he decides to recommit to our marriage.

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Interesting thread.

Glad to see you're back GIIC. And hey FC. I have moved btw...Live in Alpharetta and call.

What about denial of forgiveness? As it would seem my former, Jethro has a unique take on sin/repentance/forgiveness. That if you ignore a sin and just pretend it didn't happen then it did not happen.

I call it "sinful amnesiac" syndrome. They do something horrid and then either pretend it didn't happen or don't remember it.

And with regard to forgiveness, it is important to remember, that when we ask for forgiveness whether from God or from someone we offended, we should remember that the sin is still there unless we actually take the effort to turn away from that particular sin.

More thoughts?

I think it is important to remember that only true forgiveness can come from God and God alone. He is the one who died for our sins.

We can only forgive to a certain extent in saying "yes, you wronged me and I forgive you for the wrong you have committed against me" but that it will never be truly wiped away unless they truly repent, have Jesus Christ as their personal savior and ask him for forgiveness.

The actions we take not only have earthly consequences, but heavenly. When one commits murder, are they not forever referred to as a murderer? They can never give that person's life back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Matthew 5 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is said it's better to be single than married.

Hey justpeachy, I work in Alpharetta! Exit9- Haynes Bridge road. What a small world this is indeed.

My take on this?
It's quite simple, really.
I forgave my ex-Wife for all that she did. I forgave my kids for their hatred (ex-Wife induced) of me.
I am NO LONGER a slave to any of them, as I am free from resentments.
I do not subscribe to their way of thinking (having reconciled in a shallow sort of way with my oldest son who is in the Marine Corps) which is: "Just hit 'delete' on whatever was said, done, or whatever and Presto! it's gone - never happened. Just like magic, it's really very wonderful and any hurt feelings will also magically evaporate as well." Yeah right. Life does not work that way when you have been TRASHED by your ex-Wife to our children, her entire Family and my entire Family as well...
I am not bitter, angry or vindictive (as she is and still remains to this day). I do not stir up a big crock of sh*t whenever there is a chance that we might happen to fly into the same city (Lynchburg, VA) at the same time to see our oldest son when he's on leave from the USMC.
I see it this way: I admitted my mistakes to God, He forgave me, my Family forgave me, the Lord sent me a wonderful Christian Wife, and whatever happens with her Family is of no concern to me. What happens to my wife and I is of our concern as my wife is the one single most important person in this world to me: above anyone in my Family, my sons, or anyone else. It's not my problem if the ex-wife cannot see it that way. She will have to deal with it on her own - and lying to everyone about me won't help her situation any.
Really, it's ANCIENT HISTORY now - and I've moved on from a 19-year life of HELL ON EARTH with that woman.
Life is now good and life goes on (with God).
'Nuff said.
HLT

GIIQ, you trying to tell us something??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

From GIIQ:

"They now know what a healthy relationship is like."

From the observant one,

Jacky (with love and light)