Hello everyone. I posted back in July asking about remarriage to a former spouse. (We were married 28 years) I have been seeing my X nearly every week since I left him, talking, just spending time with him. Recently we have done some significant recreational type things that before I left he flat out always refused to do with me.

I have not yet broached the subject of reconcilliation to him, because I don't want to give him any false hopes. I have written out a list of 20 things that MUST be addressed, things that he needs to agree to before I will reconcile, and what is strange is he has actually mentioned several of them without seeing the list. I am seeing changes in his behavior that I begged for years about.

More and more I am enjoying being with him, but I don't feel romantic love for him, but on the other hand I desperately wish he would kiss me, or make overtures to me.

If I were to ask him what changes he wants me to make he would insist there are none. He has never been very realistic as to my shortcomings.

One of my strongest emotional needs has always been sexual fufillment, and he has always had a far weaker sex drive than me. He would be happy with sex twice a year, I'd like it twice a day. Added to the mix is that he is now impotent and was unwilling to try viagra before I left, and told me to take a lover, just not to fall in love.

I guess I am afraid of being in a celibate marriage, because I know if I go back I will not cheat again. I can't do that to him.

So what do I do? I am comfortable living on my own, our kids are grown, my finances are ok, not great but ok. But I miss him. Is that the ultimate factor? What do I do?

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Blackberrygirl ]</small>

BBG :

Greetings.

If you read through Harley's articles or go to the search box regarding remarrying ex-spouses you will obtain some clues as to how to handle this.

Obviously you divorced because many EN's were not being met. I suggest you read his "needs/her needs"..."falling in love" ....all written by Willard Harley....I think you are smart to list what your important EN's are, particularly sex.

To withold that list(at least for now) is wise.
However, if he is impotent, and you think that reconciliation is possible, he must seek medical help.(Unless of course Viagra does the trick).
Also, in "his needs, her needs" Harley describes the 10 most crucial needs men and woman have that MUST be met(They are identical by the way). And, not surprisingly, men and women priortize their needs differently. The trick is to make sure that these needs are addressed so they become permanent. This means that each individual has to have recognition of this and the changes they make become part of everyday habit. You have seen changes in him, and that is good. Perhaps he will be willing to meet more.

At some point, if this really gets to the time where you are falling in love and feel good about some of the changes he has made but makes no progress towards others that are important to you,
then, you may have to reveal the balance of the list to him and see if he can try to meet them.
To make anyone guess is not being commmunicative and that meets no ones needs.

In the book, "HIs Needs/Her Needs", there is a list of the most important emotional needs. Both of you take a copy and priortize your needs in order of importance. You then show the lists to each other and see what is most important to each other. A policy of Joint Agreement...also in this book, is an agreement between the two of you to put in writing how those needs will be met on a regular basis. You may also find that your list of twenty will be incorporated into the ten that Harley lists.
By shortening the list, you will take some pressure off as well. (A list of twenty
anything for me would be a lot at a grocery store, let alone a personal relationship). The list will also be a little more manageable.

It is obvious that you love him, and, by the sounds of it, you could fall in love all over again.

But at this point, reading the suggested books and getting some counseling for yourself might be in order here.

Keep us posted. And, of course, best wishes.

I second Gregg M's advice, and I'd suggest that you and your ex-H faithfully follow The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage before you start reconciliation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of my strongest emotional needs has always been sexual fufillment, and he has always had a far weaker sex drive than me. He would be happy with sex twice a year, I'd like it twice a day. Added to the mix is that he is now impotent and was unwilling to try viagra before I left, and told me to take a lover, just not to fall in love.

I guess I am afraid of being in a celibate marriage, because I know if I go back I will not cheat again. I can't do that to him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not mean any disrespect when I ask you the following rhetorical questions, so forgive me if you feel offended by them. 'How much sexual intercourse are you having right now that you are single?' Unless you have a lover, the answer would probably be zero, right?. So assuming for a minute that the answer is indeed zero, I'd like to ask you another rhetorical question, if I may, 'How is it that you are able to live without sexual intercourse now that you are single, and yet not be able to live without it if you get remarried to your ex-H?'. Here's another question 'What would you do if your ex-H regained his sexual potency only to lose it due to some health issue like diabetes?'. As I said these questions are rhetorical but you do need to answer them to yourself for their purpose is to help you find out if SF(sexual fulfillment) is indeed a high priority EN(emotional need) or if your high sex drive is a manifestation of something totally different.

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hello Blackberrygirl:

I would have to agree with both GreggM as well as TMCM. However, TMCM I feel is the one that is truly right on, I think. If you decide to reconcile, you should realize that you won't necessarily have all of your needs met, and your husband could end up having something else (physical for example-diabetes perhaps) that takes away from your needs being met.

I think that your list of "20 things" that you want him to agree to may set you up with unrealistic expectations of him. While I think that Harleys concepts truly hit the nail on the head (aren't these concepts the basis of marriagebuilders.com), I think that the most important thing about these concepts is it gives you a chance to work on yourself first and foremost and to truly do your best to meet your spouse's needs out of unconditional love (no strings attached)

Are you a Christian? If so, I think that you should pray about whether God wants this marriage restored; I think that normally He would want it restored. Love is a decision that we all make. It sounds to me like you are the one that needs to decide whether to love him as your husband. I think that if you decide to reconcile and then remarry him, then simply as his wife and best friend, then you should unconditionally do your best to meet his needs and pray for him to meet your needs. Maybe pray to God about this list of 20 things that you have and encourage him to to the same for you.

I feel this way in what I have written, because I did not do these things, and that is a big reason that my wife and I are separated. I spent too much time dwelling on what she should be doing for me, and we did not spend much time in prayer together. You are in the same position that my wife is in, in that it is you (from what it sounds like) who is having to decide whether to reconcile. I wish that my wife would simply make the decision to reconcile, because I would spend all my efforts doing exactly what I have mentioned I would do if I were you.

It sounds like God is already starting to answer your prayers. Maybe you could tell your husband how much you like it whenever he meets one of these things on your list.

Gregg

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: GreggC ]</small>

Dear BBgirl,
You have gotten some excellent advice from three people. I know three couples who got remarried and they are more in love than ever. I'm sure there are some that failed too, but true love will take that risk. I will tell you that 28 years is at least a fourth of your life and there are a LOT of memories between the two of you. Show me anyone who has been married, worked together, been related, had children, etc for 28 years and not had differences. I also feel you still love him and maybe you need to make a SMALL list of some of the things that you were failing at and give it to him. Tell him that these are some things that you are trying to change about yourself and would like his opinion. Then maybe the two of you can talk about those ten needs and start to work things out without implying you are working out anything. You can be a little creative, but not deceitful.
If you are a Christian, then you need to ask God for help and wisdom, because you know God wants your marriage restored. God's love for you is unconditional. What if an envelope dropped from the sky and it was a list of 20 things and it said " I will love you if ". Signed, God. God can help you to work out the problems and get help for the sex issue.
I think your ex would love to kiss you too. Be honest and simply ask him " would you kiss me ". And no don't attach a bunch of strings. Let love take it's course. You might just get kissed twice!!!!!!! And what's wrong with that!!!!!
God Bless
singleguy

Thank you for all your responses. First, I am not offended by the question about whether or not I am celibate. The fact is I am single, and have a satisfying sex life with men when I wish to. I am not "in love" but rather, have enjoyable, non platonic friendships. How ever, if I return to the marriage I absolutely do not want to cheat.

However, I did not cheat on my ex until very late in the mariage, and again it was only after he gave explicit permission to take a lover. That in and of itself may have been a big factor in me leaving, I felt he didn't love me enough to be willing to try to do anything to keep and satisfy me.

As to sexual behavior with my ex, intercourse is NOT the only form of acceptable sexual fufillment for me, but he was unwilling to look into such avenues as heavy petting, mutual masturbation, or oral.

I have looked into Dr. Harley s emotional needs questionaire and my list is centered around domestic support, recreational companionship and sexual fufillment. I suppose a few of the items could be condensed together. I'd be glad to post the list for suggestions.

I do not practice any form of conventional Judeo -Christian religion, nor does my ex, nor do our children. I am not anti religious, in many cases I understand that it fufills a great need people have, but it isn't a need I have. Please do not flame me for my religious (or non religious) stance. I am geuninely asking for thoughtful input.

Thank you for your replies.

Blackberrygirl I suggest that you stand firm with your x-H regarding these issues (boundaries) but please don't set the bar so high with regards to SF (twice a day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) because he's most likely not going to clear it (most men can't either), and it may just cause him to consider a possible reconciliation as an unreachable goal.

Does he know about your sexual relationships with your platonic friends? Keep in mind that radical honesty is one of the best ways to avoid having an affair and that IF you do decide to reconcile, these 'friends with benefits' will have to become history, for if you insist on keeping them as regular friends, you would be doing so at your ex-H's emotional expense. Not to mention doing so would be dangerous to your future marriage because they would be a source of temptation due to the inescapable fact that you already share a sexual history with them (enjoyable sexual memories would be kept alive). Just remember that you would not like it if your ex-H maintained friendship with former female friends who had also been his lovers after the two of you got remarried. This is not my layman opinion but that of the good Dr Harley in his book titled 'Love Busters' (I highly recommend this book if you haven't read it already).

Hope to hear from you soon.

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thank you for your reply.

Yes my X DOES know about these non-platonic friendships. And the fact is IF we reconcile I do not intend to see these men ever again. We don't travel in the same social circles. I would move back to our old hometown, these men don't live in the same area.

I am not so foolish as to expect SF twice daily. I am just pointing out the extreme difference in our sex drives. But he would be content to go as long as 18 months without and did at a few points in our marraige (which meant I did too.) I honestly feel that we have to have an agreement that SF MUST be an important part of our marriage.

My H has had 2 brief relationships since out divorce, but they weren't consummated. His impotence is a problem there too, but I know he was able to have a satisfactory sexual relationship with them. I know both women, and both DO travel in our social circle, and frankly I like them both and wouldn't get bent out of shape if he continued a friendship with them.

We have had a policy of honesty... I think the problem was, I was being honest, in saying I was not happy with things the way they were, but he wasn't listening.

I pruned my list down to 15 items including marriage counseling which is the only non negotiable item. I will not return without a set number of joint and individual counseling seessions. The rest are open to negotiation including SF as long as it is addressed.

Blackberry, you certainly have a very clear view. I think you should trust your instincts because they seem sound. And I imagine having your husband telling you to take a lover would be hurtful. It sounds like paradise to those of us with higher sex drives, but how awful. It would be like having your spouse offer to hire someone who would sit at your bedside after a serious operation. “Honey, I want you to be happy, but I don’t want to do it, so I’ll hire someone.”

If I were you, and I’m not, I would enjoy the growing bond. Maybe spend more and more time together. See if you do want to marry this man. There’s no hurry, right?

Oh, and as a very unconventional Christian, I certainly won't flame you.

Thanks for your reply.

I AM enjoying the bond. Lately we have done more and more together. And your comment about hiring someone to sit by my sickbed was ironic because I just spent 5 days in the hospital quite ill, and HE was the one who sat with me, not my non platonic friends.

We have been seeing each other most weekends, going to movies, playing with our granddaughter, going to dinner and talking. But again I will not bring up reconcilliation until I am certain because I refuse to hurt him again.

We are planning a weekend trip soon, something he refused to do when we were married... I DO see changes in him.

So how do I fall in love with him again? Not all that long ago I was so crazy about him I actually backed my car into a fence because I was looking at him...I care about him. I like him a lot.

I might add that a lot of our problems began when our older daughter died nearly 4 years ago, a few days before Christmas.. Does that have any bearing on things?
BlackberryGirl

Blackberry, you're too smart to even ask that question. Of course it has a baring on it. The death of child places a great deal of stress on any marriage. When children are young, spouses often subconsciously blame each other.

It can't be easier emotionally when they're grown. I'm so sorry for your loss.

I guess you're right. Somehow he couldn't grieve with me, wouldn't/couldn't comfort me, wouldn't/couldn't accept my attemts to comfort him. She was 21 years old.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"So how do I fall in love with him again? Not all that long ago I was so crazy about him I actually backed my car into a fence because I was looking at him...I care about him. I like him a lot."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By following The Rule Of Time .

Ok, So I spend more time with him. We live 50 miles apart, but see each other weekly or so, maybe a full 8 hours on a Saturday or Sunday. Maybe an over night occasionally. We talk on line or on the phone several times a week. We are spending a long weekend at an event quite some distance from us in mid OCtober

How do I increase the time?

And at what point do I say to him, "I want to talk about reconciling?"

Someone asked what I would do if he had diabetes. That IS the cause of his impotence, however I have been told that if DB is well controlled that viagra should be effective. Again, Diabetes doesn't affect his mouth or hands, so SF is possible even without interourse.

Do I start seeing a counselor first without him? And if so, do I go to a marriage counselor or what?

Thanks for your replies.

Blackberrygirl,

But, the other issue is that diabetes may be affecting his sex drive. It seems to me that you are asking some consider things from him if he doesn't enjoy sex. Is that the case??? It might worth considering that he get a full medical work up, including testostorone (sp) levels checked.

As for when you should tell him you would reconsider the marriage, I suspect that will happen when it should happen. I mean that it will become obvious to you and perhaps your exh although I doubt he would suggest it first.

Let me ask you something though. What have you been changing to make this a more workable marriage if it occurs? I realize you have a list for your exH, but from your end of things what has changed, that you now would even consider him?

Something in your perspective must have been modified.

Just some random questions that came to my head.

God Bless,

JL

Hmmm
How have I changed?? Good question. In some ways I am more patient, although I have always been considered a very patient person. But along with more patience, I have become more assertive. I no longer fear telling him (or anyone)what I need or want or feel. (I mean after all, what's he going to do? Leave me?)

I no longer worry about dealing with our son. He is legally an adult, and my ex H has had to deal with him for 2 years now, and realizes when he was fighting with me and wanting to allow our son to do whatever he wanted, that I was right. Those chickens are roosting squarely in my X H's life.

But on the other hand I really miss my XH's sense of humor and intellect. I have not met anyone who challenges my mind and funny bone like he does.

I am realizing that my X had a certain steadfastness that I took for granted. He was so afraid of any controvery that I didn't stand up for myself. He wouldn't have left me for being assertive.

He had a full workup and did get a couple of testosterone shots but didn't follow them up. And he has never had a typical male sex drive.

Sigh I just don't know.

It sounds like you are a very level headed person, and I would just suggest that you keep on being honest with your ex-H and yourself about what your most important needs are. Better to keep your ex-H as a friend than letting any wishful thinking drag you into a relationship that is handicapped to start with.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

my mistake

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

my mistake

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb please read again from the beginning of this thread, this woman is DIVORCED from her ex-H and has been totally upfront with him about her relationships with other men and he has been with her about his relationships with other women. They are NOT in reconciliation YET because she wants the two of them to resolve the issues that were instrumental in their divorce.