Hi,

I posted this on the Pre-Marriage board, but where my girlfriend is divorced, I thought I'd put it here too.

I'm new to the boards I (hi everyone) and came here looking for help from other people that are looking and/or might have a heads up on this kind of stuff. My situation:
- I'm dating an awesome divorced single mother.
- She's 22. Her daughter is 20 months old. Her x had multiple affairs.
- I'm 28.
- I love them both very much and recently we started talking about marriage.

Here's why I came here:
- My gf can barely remember her high school years. She spent most of them addicted to cocaine. She has said and I agree, that it's amazing she got out with a high school diploma.
- Her parents forced her into rehab against her will via a 6 month detox program. By all indications it seems to have worked. She tells me that she hasn't relapsed even once. I'm inclined to believe her... but know next to nill about relapse.
- Part of the cocaine thing... she was raped twice (consequence of hanging with the wrong crowd I guess), traded sex for drugs and subsequently got pregnant (more than 2x), and miscarried several times and I haven't had the heart to ask if she had to abort (which is a deal breaker for me) or put up a child for adoption.
- She did a lot of other drugs too and lets just say that she followed the typical crack addict story.

I am deeply in love with her. I see her in my future. I'm terrified of falling in love with her and then:
A. Finding out that there are deal breaker things here for me. Right now I'm too scared to even ask. We've talked about going to counselling together prior to marriage.
B. Having her relapse in drugs. In researching it on the internet, relapse is massive with cocaine.

This site talks a lot about how drugs are a deal breaker. I'm not willing to go into a committed relationship with this hanging over my head. Nor do I want to become her anti-drug monitor. I need and am interested in a partner that I can trust absolutely and am actually scared I can't with her because of her past. I was hoping that some of you might have some experience with drug-addiction relapse rates, being in an "addiction-recovered" relationship, etc. Once I decide to ask her to marry me, if I find out about these deal-breakers, I think my heart will break into a 1000 pieces.

How do you cope with the past when it's so scary? Can people really change? I'm hesitant to even mention it because everything I've read about cocaine relapse indicates that just talking about it can trigger cravings for many years after you stop using it. Right now, when we have talked about it, I try to shower her with love and reassure her that I love her... but the truth is, we're getting to a point where I'm going to have to make a decision to stay or leave. How do you cope with this kind of past?

How long have you been dating?
Because I’d say take it slow. How can you even think about marriage when you don’t know whether she had an abortion or not? And if she did, how she feels about it now?

You are still wildly infatuated, the chemical high of being in love. This chemical high warps everything. And it makes people feel like they know a person inside and out even when they don’t. You may also be influenced by a desire for an instant family.

How long has she been clean? Does she have clean habits? Like does she avoid the alcohol in cough syrup, and hang out with straight-laced people? Does she have healthy alternatives? Does she have a plan for her future?

I think you need to spend some time with this woman. Let her show you that she can make smart choices. I’m thinking in terms of years, not months. It’s not fair to the little girl if you marry her mom and then leave.

And all the deal breakers need to be up-front. You need to find out NOW so that you don’t further hurt yourself, the young woman and the child. And scared is NO excuse.

Being brave is about doing what scares you because someone’s got to do it.

And she should have regularly scheduled bloods tests for a while to determine if she’s HIV positive. It can take a while to show up.

Also I recommend a book "Will Our Love Last" I wish I'd read it before I got married.

Sunkist, welcome to Marriage Builders.

Your post brought up some questions. How long have you been dating? How long has she been out of detox? Was it a detox-only program? How much was rehab part of that program? I agree with Greengables, you should be looking at YEARS (sorry, you probably didn't want to hear that!) and NOT months of on-going interaction/relationship with her before even considering what your future might hold together. Yes, people can change, but you need (and she should also want to prove to herself) a very healthy track record, both physically and emotionally.

One last question - no offense meant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - but have you examined your own motives to make sure you're not in a "rescuer" relationship? Women with pasts such as your friend's can (unconsciously) gravitate toward guys who fill that need, and you both might end up in a co-dependant nightmare.

Well said, Avondale.

She's been clean for 4 years. Sorry. I should have noted that. My post makes it look like she just barely got out. I'd be very surprised if she had had an abortion, but teen pregnancy, drugs, etc... all these (to me) seem to increase the chances of something like that.

I've known her for several months. We only started dating after her divorce finally went through. She does avoid relapse-likely situations and has a lot of good friends in her immediate family and church community. She also works at a high fashion salon/day spa... which is not good. As much as I believe that she's been clean as long as she says, I wonder at her work environment. (sighs)

As for me, I do have rescuer tendencies. However, I am not interested in being a monitor or a perpetual rescuer. There is enough about her past that when I think about marriage and a future I often find myself gravitating towards a pre-nup that specifies divorce conditions for drug relapse on her part, y'know? It just freaks me out. As for instant family... you guys have raised a lot of questions... and I'm kind of looking for advice and/or info on cocaine relapse and such. Time is definitely a granted. I do know that I need to see how she acts over a much longer period of time than what I've had. However, I also believe that when you love someone and you know that the time is right to take the next step, that you should. I'm a firm believer in marriage. I do not however want to end up as another divorce casualty. Consider my posting her and the relapse research I've been doing part of my due dilligence into a partnership!!!

Sunkist, we ALL thought the time was right and took the next step.

True confession here. My husband hasn't changed one iota since the day I married him. I had dated him a year. I KNEW he was the one for me. And boy, oh, boy was I wrong.

My husband is very likely suffering from an undiagnosed personality disorder. The likelihood is increased by the fact my father has a diagnosed personality disorder. Kind of like children of alcoholics marrying alcoholics.

So, just because the time seems right, doesn't mean that it's right. A quick courtship is not a good idea.

And I think you have to ask about abortion. It is such an extreme subject I recommend all people considering marriage to ask what the beloved believes about abortion. There is not middle ground on this.

And sorry about the blood warning. But, I gathered from your post that she, um, prostituted herself for drugs.

(And for anyone who bashes her, let me remind you that Mary Magdalene was a reformed prostitute!)

Good luck to you, Sunkist. Let us know how it goes.

bump...

Does anyone have any stats, first hand advice, or links to resources about cocaine relapse and/or being in a relationship with someone that was addicted to it?

...and how on earth do you address these kinds of things with someone you love? I've read the Overcoming Love Busters... I have no idea how to ask these kinds of questions without coming across as judgemental... the questions, in and of themselves imply judgement. Not only that, but I would, depending on certain things, walk away from the relationship.

You've all been through the wringers with you dvs and I'd love some advice and help.

Go to Emotional Needs and post there. Daisy37 in particular has dealt successfully with drug addiction in her marriage.

Coke is at least not as bad as heroin. My next door neighbor was a junkie. I mean a heroin junkie. Luckily his parents had the money to put him away for 6 weeks. This neighbor almost died. Today, he's a successful professional, married with a daughter. He occassionally drinks, but never does drugs.

I provide this antecdotal evidence because crack and heroin seem to tough to shake.

If I remember correctly though, cocaine doesn't have the same physical addiction that heroin does. A heroin addict going cold-turkey can have serious, serious health problems. Hence methodone.

I don't think coke is the same family.

Anyway, Post to Daisy.

Had a wonderful talk with her last night that answered a lot of these questions. She financed her drugs independently; she had a job as a pharmacist tech... and that's where the criminal record comes from - stealing and then selling stuff.

Her problem drugs were coke, dope, alcohol, ecstasy.

She stopped because she met a friend that wasn't into any of that stuff and she went to a party with her where no one was even drinking alcohol. She said she had never had so much fun and decided to stop. She did stop and completely (on her own) dissociated herself from the drug culture. But when her senior year in HS started, all her drug friends were there and she relapsed. That was when her parents put her into the rehab program. The program actually was a disaster... it put her in touch with people who had more and better access to drugs and more variety of drugs. Finally, her parents told her that if she didn't get with it, they'd stop her from going to college (she'd already been accepted) and be roommates with that one friend. She stopped several days later and has never touched any of those drugs (except alcohol - she started drinking during her separation) since.

The pregnancies all ended with miscarriages and there were 3.

She obviously regrets all of this stuff in her past. She might be trying to trick me... but I sincerely doubt it. Time will tell though and I do intend to keep my eyes open.

She quit on her own without going into multi-step programs. She went cold turkey... relapsed 8 months later... and then went cold turkey again. She doesn't remember having any withdrawals as such, but her parents went out of their way to take her out on weekends, which was when she would typically go hang out with friends that did drugs. She completely removed herself from those people and only occassionally (once a year or so for a holiday/birthday card) keeps in touch with one of them...

She also has yet to find any situation where she develops cravings. She got active in her church and made a lot of friends there to replace the drug culture. In her marriage, for the past 20 months she has had a daughter. For the 9 months prior to that she was pregnant trying to have a baby. For the 6 months before that she was trying to have a baby but miscarrying.

We talked about what "we" and "us" could do and I told her some of the concerns I have shared here. We talked about some of those other things and thank god she hasn't hit any of the dealbreakers I had like abortion, etc.

It was a very gentle conversation and at several points, I think if I had pressed harder she would have burst into tears. If it was an act, it was Oscar-worthy. I feel so much better... but like I said, I'm going to be keeping my eyes open as I go forward... and unfortunately, I think that postponing the marriage proposal is a given.

Sunkist,

I think you have a long way to go.

Honestly, I think your GF needs to spend a couple of years figuring her life out before getting involved with you or anybody else. Her life has been pretty messed up and she's got to get some practice at living a non-messed-up life before she can deal with a new marriage.

A miscarriage is a very emotionally traumatic event for a woman. Even now that she has a child, part of her is probably grieving those that were lost. She needs time to heal.

I think it is unlikely that she has been completely honest with you. Not that she is a "dishonest person", but that she probably has some sense of what the deal-breakers are for you (she does know a little about you, right?) that she might have withheld some info. It's a natural thing.

You have been so concerned about her high-school drug days that you seem to have completely skipped over the question of what really went wrong in her marriage.

If you are considering a long-term relationship, I think you need to have a chat with her X. He's going to be co-parenting with her for the next 20-something years. He's going to be at some of the same events - exchanging the child for visitation, talking about child support etc. All you know about him is what she has told you. Be brave. Talk to him. Hear his point-of-view. If it is identical to hers, then you can feel that you know what really went on in their marriage. If it is different, then you have to realized that it is likely that neither of them have told you the complete truth.

A final concern... If you have any desire or expectation of having children, you may be in for a difficult process. Sometimes women who have been promiscuous at a young age have difficulties. If she has already had 3 miscarriages, it is likely that she will have more.

Listen man, I'm probably in a rescuer marriage myself. My W's issues were different - and they were in no way her fault, but she never really had a chance to grow up. Your GF hasn't had time to grow up either. She may be 22, but in many ways she's still stuck back there where she skipped over a lot of important things. At the same time, she's been experienced many negative things. She has come to accept or even need a lot of drama in her life. I would drop back to the "just friends" mode, if I were you. You are lining yourself up for a huge amount of pain otherwise.

-AD

Sunkist,

My other post was getting kind of long, so I'm posting this a separate donation of "wisdom".

I use metaphors a lot. My wife hates it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was reading a business column the other day. The writer was talking about the issue of "luck" in business. Maybe the same applies to the idea of "luck" in love.

He wrote that as he drove to work that morning, he saw that there was a new restaurant at a particular corner. He predicted that it would fail. It looks like a great location for a restaraut. But... There have been something like 10 restaraunts in that location over the past 8 years. They all failed. His conclusion: Trust history. If you want to be successful (or lucky), avoid situations which have been proven failures.

For whatever it's worth...

-AD

<small>[ October 19, 2003, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

AD!!!!

If I were Sunkist your second post would firm my resolution to be with that young woman.

Surely you weren't implying that she was a failure?

Sunkist, resist the temptation to defend and rescue your girlfriend from AD's remarks.

AD's main point is that your girlfriend probably played an active role in her woes. And unless she's really grown beyond, you will be sucked in.

If she's giving you the "fish or cut bait" line, cut bait. It's too soon. She's still physically young, so you don't have to rush to get married to start a family.

Slow and easy. Otherwise, we may be seeing you back here. And once you're married, we only want you chacking in on Emotional Needs Board for maintance. We don't want to see you here.

Trust us. You're so lucky to have found a safe place where people will share what they have learned. Let our mistakes prevents yours.

Just go slowly. That's all we ask. Besides, psychologists will tell you, people are truly formed until about 27. Heck, I didn't grow up until I had my first baby. I was 29.

editted... ooops.

<small>[ October 19, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Lyxa ]</small>

When I first read AD's post, it reminded me of a restaraunt location near me that has been like his story... open/close/ etc. At first, I felt bad for that restaraunt until I heard they were just changing the menu and name, but keeping the chefs! A crappy chef will make crappy Italian, asian, steak, etc because they are crappy.

I have often wondered at the failure of her marriage. I have my own theories as to what her role was in it all. I actually knew her ex-husband. He was my assistant cub scout leader for about 3 months though I only saw him maybe 1 time during that period. He was an absolute flake.

Here's my theory. My girlfriend wanted to turn her life onto a new track. After having been drug free for about a year, she meets this guy in her church circle of friends and falls in love. She doesn't want to rock the boat and so when it became apparent that a) he was having affairs at work, b) cyberaffairs, c) his father is a convicted pedophile, and d) he has no goals in life... she doesn't know what to do. Hoping things will get better, they moved back here to stay with her family. Where she couldn't rock the boat, her parents did. He starts having affairs again and with a baby on the way, her parents gave him an ultimatum... shape up or ship out. He chose the later.

So, she does have some conflict avoidance issues... but that's okay as I like to get up in her face about things. ;-) I don't think she's a bad "location" or a bad chef. I do think she's struggling with defining how to cope with some past bad decisions she has made... and with being a single mother... and with where she wants to go in life.

Now, about that other stuff. We have talked about marriage and whatnot. I was going to propose on Christmas Eve. Based on everything I've read here and the utter lack of happy addiction recovery stories, I think I'm going to wait on the proposing. As much as I hate to say it, I guess I need to see her in more situations and see how she copes with stuff. I want a partner. My original concerns about the drugs where if my "partnership" was going to involve an addiction, either active or passive. If active, I'm out of here. If passive, I need to know if I can deal with that (and how)... and if it's worth it.

I don't think that every addict is a bad person. But, I do think it severely limits their ability to make long term commitments. In my NOW, I wonder at consequences she might be coping with that affect her short and long term ability to make committments. I'm not interested in becoming a quick-fix solution to whatever it is that might be going on. I'm also not interested in getting her face about this every chance I have. I think I'm a pretty smart person and intend to research this out by watching and noting how she is, but in a gentle way OVER TIME.

I'd hate to be back here on the divorce or Just Found Out board. Part of my proposal might include the suggestion that we go to pre-marriage counselling together. I don't know.

Sunkist, my hat's off to you.

You came here seeking answers. You got a lot of advice. And in a rare feat, you have accepted the advice without rancor and allowed it to help form your decision.

Do check back in occassionally, and give us an update. And if you two do get married, or engaged, read LoveBusters and His Needs/Her Needs together. If we had only known.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by greengables:
<strong> AD!!!!

If I were Sunkist your second post would firm my resolution to be with that young woman.

Surely you weren't implying that she was a failure?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GG,

Hmmmm. My metaphors miss the mark again.

I was not talking about the failure of a person, but of a relationship.

What I was trying to say is, just as there are locations which are prone to cause the failure of a business, there are certain situations which are prone to cause the failure of a marriage.

There are lot of red flags here. While it is possible to succeed in spite of difficulties, success is more likely in the absence of them. If you want to succeed in marriage, look for a less troubled situation.

-AD