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#759092 10/16/03 04:19 PM
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My xh recently woke up from his mlc nightmare and has realized what he lost. He is trying to make things right with me and wants to do anything and everything possible to get me to take him back into my life. So your saying to yourself, what's the problem?? Well, let me back up.

We had been married for 16 1/2 years, together for 18 1/2. pre-teen twin girls. We M young and basically grew up together. H had a horrible accident 3 years ago and almost died. This sent him into his mlc nightmare. H had an A with someone from high school....a total loser then and still a total loser today. The total opposite of me in every way. Anyways, he leaves me and goes to live in an appt with a work friend for the past 1 1/2 years (ow lives there too!). During that time, there were the usual mlc ups and downs. I could see him going through all the different stages as if he has read a how-to manual. During his time away, he lied, drank heavily, continued the A, lied some more, treated me like crap, lied to me some more and basically made a complete mess of his life! I finally gave up and pulled my life together and divorced him in June 03.

I have become a different person and am very happy with my life now. I love my job, my friends, my home. I am doing great now. I started dating again and that has been going well. Then he wakes up! Considering all that he did to me and the fact that we're divorced, I should slam the door in his face. But I couldn't. We started spending some time together and had a great time! I started reconnecting with him and him to me. He is trying to show me how sorry and wrong he was and trying to make things right with me. I told him not to pressure me and to take baby steps. Well he has decided to start moving faster and it's freaking me out. I'm not ready to move any faster. I like things the way they are at the moment. I'm not even close to being ready to let him totally back into my life. To let him back into my home. He says things to me like 'you don't seem totally happy to see me or be with me'. I told him that I am having trouble committing to him and have major trust issues. That after what he put me through, it's going to take a long time to bring me back. He mentioned not wanting to be strung along.

The truth is that I really don't know what I want. I do still love him, but am afraid to give me heart so completely again. I don't want to ever be hurt like I was! The other kicker to this story is that there is another person in the picture. He lives in another state so I rarely see him. But we talk on the phone and email each other almost every day. We have been exploring our R for about 8 months but have just recently gotten very close and intimate. I really care for him so much and wonder what my life would be like with him. He feels the same for me. He knows about H and what is happening. Of course he's not happy, but he's away and H is here. Plus he's been through the mlc thing and understands. Oh and one more kicker, I realized during our seperation that H is an alcoholic. He has alot of childhood issues that he needs to work through and needs some major counseling for himself as well as with me. He knows he has alot of problems to deal with but is pushing me for a commitment. I keep telling him to work on himself first. I see some changes, but no work on the big things. I don't know what else to tell him to make him understand that it will take time, one way or another. Has anyone experienced anything similiar or have any ideas on how I should deal with this situation? Thanks much!

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SIL:

I am in a similar situation except my wife is still living w/ OM. It has been about 14 months since it all started.She says she is having MLC. Her issues are very similar to your H's. Alcohol...childhood issues...etc... We are in the process of D.

I would not let him back into oyur life until you set boundtries and conditions he must meet.

1/ Alcohol re-hab or AA (oreferably both)

2/ Individual counseling for his issues..including why he did what he did.

If he can do those things...then IMHO you can discuss where you think it can go from there.

Setting upbpundries of what you will/wiil not tolerate is PRIME.

If he does not do any of this...you have nothing.

Just my .01.

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Still,

You have come a long way baby and should be proud of yourself. You are in a place I hope to be soon. However, I know that if I was faced with the same thing, I would be questioning what I should do as well. It is difficult when you have spent so many years with a person and in spite of all their bad traits and the hurt that they have dealt you, not to still love those stinkers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I agree with Gregg, set boundaries. My first would be that he moves out of his living arrangement before anything else. Then he can start the couseling he needs with a some what clearer head.

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Still, sometimes I wonder how much of our connection with our (x)spouses have to do with comfort, shared history or co-dependance and how much actually has to do with love.

H and I are still close friends...but you have every right to be freaked. I've been freaked on occasion, too.

Like Luv, I totally agree with Gregg's 1 and 2.

Right now it sounds like your ex is operating from a place of insecurity and dependance if he's more worried about being strung along than about making things right with you. When he says things like that, he's showing that he's caring less about you than himself.

With or without your other love interest in the picture...I'd say if your ex isn't actively doing the things he needs to be doing on his own to heal and grow, you're looking to repeat history.

I'm very much where you're at right now. Except separated. I've asked for a D but H is begging me for more time to see if he can't change into the man I deserve.

At the moment, I'm granting him that time. But it's revokeable if he screws up or "freaks me out" enough.

But my H has joined a church, and he's going to an IC to "fix his brain". Both were his own idea (after refusing to do this when we were in "recovery"). Other changes are promised or are in the works but I no longer bank on just promises or plans. I look for tangible results. Believe me, points are added and deducted daily. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Though it doesn't sound it, I'm a terrible soft-hearted romantic...and I see that I've been horribly enabling in my marriage (even my H says I've spoiled him rotten and he's been a selfish jerk)--so I know I may sound cold here, but I'm trying to be very smart in this "possible reuniting" business. You and I have got to be smarter.

Tough love is for us just as much as it is for these guys.

Do not enable your ex. That is not love either. He has to carry his own load and do his own work. He should not be asking for promises or actions from you. You should be getting very good at lovingly but firmly saying no. I know I am.

In August I promised myself (and I've been honest with my H about it) that, even with miraculous changes, if I ever even reconsider a reunion with him, it won't be in 2003. His last affair (and all the lies and emotional abuse that goes along with it) lasted about 8 months. Right now--without a miracle, I don't see how--but I know it would take at least that long to rebuild some of the trust he's destroyed. I remind him from time to time, when I feel pressured by him that if he's going to pursue this, he's in for a long haul with virtually no effort on my part and no promise from me at the end. I've carried him for way too long. If he can't take it, isn't it best that we both know that now?

I have not yet dated...it's one of the reasons why I was pushing for the quick divorce...but I consider myself open to love. I don't plan on standing still just because he is only now trying to mature and grow. The man had more chances than he knew what to do with--and he blew it.

He has resisted God's will for a very long time now, living in a world of selfishness, sickness and sin. Me letting him back into the home and the marriage will stunt the growth he needs to do. He will get comfortable and lax. Don't we know their m.o. by now?

Them being uncomfortable and unhappy can be good thing. It's a sign of a possible growth spurt. It can be cathartic. Stand your ground. Maybe set a deadline for yourself to decide in the future and keep it to yourself. What would have to happen or change in that time frame? (My list is actually quite long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> )

Having that other man in your life does complicate things, though, doesn't it?

So, Still, is your ex H DOING anything concrete to fix his psyche? his spirit? his emotional wounds?

Or is he just coasting on your past shared good times...and on promises and small deeds that are easy for him to pull off?

If it's the latter, I think you have your quickie answer.

If it's the former, you are gonna have to set that deadline. See if those changes he makes in himself actually stick.

<small>[ October 18, 2003, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Leilana ]</small>

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Still... keep moving forward! It seems you've done a wonderful job finding peace in your life. At times I think FWS's like to play games with us when we move on, I think they like to see how many times you'll come back. I'm not saying that's what he's doing, but something to think about. A friend of mine (whose w lives with SG) has asked her back 6 times after she's made comments about thinking of coming home... each time she has turned him down. She gets a thrill out of him wanting her.

Can you ever really go back after so much hurt (rhetorical question)?!?!

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You should do what you WANT to do....sometimes that gets confused with what you think you should do, or what others (including ones ex or current spouse) want you to do...this is especially messed up when you are a giver/rescurer type who have a hard time being "selfish".

My response to these kinds of questions is pretty basic....forget you were ever married, forget of course you "care" (often confused with love) about him, and come at this from a specific focus. If you had never met your H, and met him now, would you date and marry him (somehow still knowing exactly what kind of person he is, just without the marital history baggage). If you would...then pursue him like you would any desireable prospective mate....if not, keep a distant boundary so you don't get sucked back into a co-dependent based relationship.

Also I agree that the strung along comment was very revealing about his intent....most like (and most often) this kind of "remorse" is a ploy to get his needs met, it is about him, you are not even a concern...finally the alcoholism in itself is a absolute dealbreaker, alcoholics are incapable of healthy relationships by definition....be glad you have escaped a dysfunctional life, and continue on building a healthy functional life....don't jump back into the hole. Most likely the ow relationship didn't pan out, so you are the fall back position for now, and he knows the drill (who doesn't) to "look" better. This is the sad and unfortunate truth about narcissitic people, they can play the game well when they want to...but it is always, I repeat ALWAYS about them.....I can't live without you is the worst possible expression of love, it is about them. If he is worthy, he will pursue you in healthy ways, demonstrate healthy behaviour consistently, and not be clingy, demanding, insensitive, etc. He will voluntarily for a long time (at least a year, 2 is better) demonstrate all the changes he needs to make, and will not complain about your dating others, he would be competeing for you and has no status to make such a complaint, plus he has a lot to prove...it doesn't sound like he is doing anything other than talking the talk, and working on your co-dependent ties/guilt/etc. So what if he gets "strung" along, it is his choice to stay the course or not, you don't owe him anything, and least of all gaurantees.

and whatever you do or don't...DO NOT have sex with your exh, he will do his darnest to get you cause it messes with your mind, and makes you feel wifely....do not let him have any sexual contact with you....I wouldn't even kiss him, it is just way way to dangerous emotionally. Not to mention unfaithful to your current relationship (unless you tell the guy).

<small>[ October 18, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

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My xh recently woke up from his mlc nightmare and has realized what he lost.


Recent wake up calls can be motivated by selfish needs more than emotional maturity and conviction of principles .... you cannot know yet if this is a fully awake man or not.


He is trying to make things right with me and wants to do anything and everything possible to get me to take him back into my life.


Well, he would be better served to be working on making himself right first, and then attempting a marriage reconciliation.


I have become a different person and am very happy with my life now. I love my job, my friends, my home. I am doing great now. I started dating again and that has been going well.

You have a lot of hard earned happiness to risk now. Your XH has already lost just about everything.This makes you desirable, and him desperate.

I told him not to pressure me and to take baby steps. Well he has decided to start moving faster and it's freaking me out.

THIS is a *RED FLAG* .... he is already disrespecting your wishes. it is all about him and his needs, and not about your safety and comfort. This is VERY "alcoholic" behavior .... I know from experience!


I'm not ready to move any faster.

Listen to your inner voice of reason. There is wisdom in your words.

He says things to me like 'you don't seem totally happy to see me or be with me'.

Again, "alcoholic" thinking is all about their needs. Very immature. What did he expect? You divorced him because of adultery, among other things .... does he want a parade in his honor? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I told him that I am having trouble committing to him and have major trust issues. That after what he put me through, it's going to take a long time to bring me back. He mentioned not wanting to be strung along.

Again, all about him and his wants. Did he mention how he underatands that developing trust after what he's done to your family will be slow and recognize that he has to earn his position back?


The truth is that I really don't know what I want. I do still love him, but am afraid to give me heart so completely again. I don't want to ever be hurt like I was!

The truth is, he is not ready. And until he is ready, you have common sense on your side yelling in your ear *caution* ---> *dangerous situation* ahead! Look don't leap.


The other kicker to this story is that there is another person in the picture. He lives in another state so I rarely see him. But we talk on the phone and email each other almost every day. We have been exploring our R for about 8 months but have just recently gotten very close and intimate. I really care for him so much and wonder what my life would be like with him. He feels the same for me.

You have every right to explore other options. You are a divorced woman. Take your time. You are still too raw to make any lifetime decisions. You seem to have really good common sense abilities .... trust yourself.

Oh and one more kicker, I realized during our seperation that H is an alcoholic. He has alot of childhood issues that he needs to work through and needs some major counseling for himself as well as with me. He knows he has alot of problems to deal with but is pushing me for a commitment.

***RED FLAG *** He has NO friggin right to push you for a piece of gum, much less the rest of your life! A commitment to an alcoholic who is not in treatment, makes you his Mommy.(trust me, I know) Want to play that role for him? If he's good re-marriage material, let him commit to AA and sobriety for a year or two, and then try to commit with you!

I keep telling him to work on himself first.

Telling him this more than once, means you are playing the "mommy" game with him. Stop. Unless he is hearing-impared .... he heard you the first time, but he doesn't have enough respect for you to believe that you mean what you say. If you find yourself repeating YOUR common sense decisions to him .... *think* --->is he ready to be your commited partner? Do you want a partner that cannot make common sense decisions on his own?

I see some changes, but no work on the big things.

"Some changes" is good. Is this enough to take all your hard earned serenity and toss it toward him and his alcoholic thinking?

I don't know what else to tell him to make him understand that it will take time, one way or another.

He's not listening. So quit advising. He is like Tom Hank's "Wilson" ...the vollyball in "Castaway". He is not respecting your changes. He wants the "old relationship" back.... because a new relationship would require him to make those BIG scary changes.

Has anyone experienced anything similiar or have any ideas on how I should deal with this situation?

Let me say this. If my H did not seek help for his alcoholism after our D-day, I would have divorced him. He was too big of a risk "as is" and our recovery would have been impossible ..... but, he is thankfully 7 years into his AA and he is a man I can admire and trust ...and a man who loves himself.

Pep

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You have said two contradictory things in your post:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is trying to make things right with me and wants to do anything and everything possible to get me to take him back into my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him not to pressure me and to take baby steps. Well he has decided to start moving faster and it's freaking me out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.

So he is not willing to "do anything and everything possible" to get you back into his life. He is not willing to let you set the pace and make your own decisions. I think you are wise to have reservations about renewing your relationship with him.

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surfdb, very good point about meeting your X (or in my case, current WH) and then dating, marrying him. It's definitely food for thought. It's been a long time since he's done wonderful things for me and has put me before him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We were just together with our children at a beautiful apple orchard on a gorgeous day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and for the most part he was aloof with me. Didn't want to stand near me, didn't look at me. It wasn't until we were departing that he actually hugged me and kissed me. I said, "I love you," ... and he didn't. Don't know if I can take this. Know I deserve better! Would I date him if I just met him ... not if things were like this, but then I guess he wouldn't ask me out either with the way he feels about me.

I'm on my way to my parents house with our children for a few days. He's staying here to do work on the house and go to a football game. As of Wednesday, I guess he's not with OW ??? What will happen this weekend?? God, I'm scared! Does anybody have a crystal ball I can borrow?!

leilana, tangible results. The only one I've seen so far is that he has said, again, that he isn't seeing OW, that he has decided to give it a go with me. I'll be adding and subtracting, too. I'm praying the results-meter gets higher by the day. I am going to keep an open mind, but be cautious.

It's hard to think about divorce, ending our lives together, but it could be what is for the best for he and I. I consider the children, but they need to see a loving relationship between their parents. At this point, they're not. I'm afraid that my son is learning unloving ways to treat women and that my daughter is not going to learn self-worth, to always be the giver. It is not my intention to find anyone until after they are out of the house (about 10 years). Maybe that's unrealistic thinking at this point, but I'm so incredibly hurt! I couldn't even think about having another person in my life. I would just rely on myself. I'm strong and I can do it on my own!

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sue, I understand about wanting to have hope...for the sake of your family and shared past history with this man...but, the only tangible result you got is that he says he's not seeing the ow? You have nothing else to go on? I was expecting more. Was hoping for more, for your sake.

What about AA? What about reading and self discovery? What about independant counseling to deal with his issues that leads him to drink and have affairs and hurt his wife and family? What about having a positive activity or habit that he uses to deal with stress and dissapointments in life?

H also isn't seeing or speaking with the ow. Big whoops. Want an award? That just isn't enough for me now. It doesn't even deserve a point addition. And it is definitely no reason to take him back.

But if he was seeing her, it would definitely set me free from him that much sooner.

LOL, I have been so tempted lately to call her and ask her "what's the deal? I thought you said you were soulmates? So why can't you keep him? Please get him out of my face." Just so she might try--if she were successful, it would save me from wasting that much more time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We deserve mates that are stronger than they once were, that have evolved, that can handle crap without self destructing. That are NOT dependent, clingy, moody, selfish or narcissistic.

Maybe they can...but it would take ALOT of work and effort on their part. WORK, not just "I woke up".

We paid our dues. We saw what happens. We learned our lessons. We have too much too lose by taking back someone who hasn't done the work.

Sue, right now I am getting treated like a princess. And you should be, too. And I do absolutely nothing for him.

For example, besides the church and the counseling he's doing (both of which he is excited about), H tells me he loves me (I don't, and he understands that), wears his wedding ring (I don't, and he understands that), does the yard work, repairs, car washing, washes the dog and takes her out for rides, brings me meals on occasion, asks to take me out, will run to the store or run simple errands for me. And he continues to pay the mortgage our house, even though I kicked him out and he lives in a tiny apartment above someone's garage now.

And I don't even lock lips with him!

I don't want him in my life but he wants to be there. He actually WANTS to treat me this way and seems to enjoy it, says it makes HIM feel good. Says I've had it coming for years, he took advantage so bad. It's been hard to be the Taker, but I'm adjusting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yes, in a way, this is unhealthy too, it's not a balanced relationship, it would have to even out somewhat...but not right now. The playing field isn't level yet. H has alot of restitution to make and alot of growing to do.

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Sue:

I agree with Leilana entirely. He really has to demonstrate that he really wants to come back and give you your"props".

The most I got out of my WW recently was..."can you put a hold on the divorce? I need more time".

Well, Yah...don't we all?

Like Leilana, my list is long too...and I am certain she won't be able to meet the items on the list in any way, shape or form. Knowing her, she will want to come back the moment I have found another. Gee WW ,Guess all that time paid off while you were away being whatever it was you thought you were being.

.....Leilana is right...they have to work for it...and really want to do it.

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Leilana and Gregg M., you're both right. I DO deserve to be treated like a princess and he needs to demonstrate that he really wants to come back. It seems as though he is just trying to coast along with me and our children. Probably until she gets her divorce from husband, which I understand will happen in the next 6 months. I'm not going to wait around for that! I'm too good of a person and don't deserve to suffer anymore. If he loves her and doesn't love me, what's the point?

Our children see their Mom getting crazier every day. Maybe on my own I can find my sanity. I am going to IC and reading everything I can get my hands on.

When I came home and checked the history on his computer, he had 2 emails in his inbox that he checked on for his work computer. One was "re: I don't know if I can survive this" and one was "re: Missing you". Don't know a lot about how his works, but I think that if it says "re" that he was the one who sent the original mail to her, she replied and he checked the responses in his inbox. Obviously, it's not over as he said again! Any contact with each other just starts the withdrawal all over.

Big sigh ...

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SIL,

You say you have changed, but...Where has he changed???

You say there's still someone in the picture. Does that mean he's cheating on her now?

You say he is an alcoholic. Is he going to AA? Has he stopped drinking.

You say he tells you that "he" doesn't want to be strung along. Where his patience after what he did to you?

Was he a good husband before the MLC? If so, what made him a good husband?

I have a feeling that he is still a wolf in sheep's clothing and you are still naieve when it comes to him.

I hope you learn the truth before you get in to deep.

ANNA

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Ok, big red face here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> .....

Somewhere along the line I got Suebee and SIL mixed up. Chock it up to sleep deprivation.

Funny thing of it is, the advice is the same for both.

Sue and SIL, wishing you both the best.

Oh, one last suggestion, read the book "Too Good to Leave, To Bad to Stay". Sometimes there is still love in a relationship, or other important variables like kids...but at some point, it would be unhealthy for us to remain in or restore a relationship with our spouse or ex-spouse. This book helps you clarify your relationship and what is in your best interest to do. Takes the guess work, waffling and ambivalence right out of it.

It's really very good.

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Leilana ]</small>


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