For those of you whose children also act completely different after a weekend with the ex...


My son is not much of a troublemaker. But when he comes home from dads/grandmas, he acts like he is Prince ****dontstink. My daughter is usually a handful too. Because of this, I have avoided visiting my boyfriend and his daughter at his parents house on Sundays after picking the kids up. This day was supposed to be special (pumpkin carving) so I went there, after a warning to the kids to BEHAVE or we'd be heading home.

Things were going okay, briefly. Daughter said that dad always cleans out the pumpkins and this was her first time feeling "pumpkin guts" and she LOVED it. Son was also enjoying it, but having a hard time keeping his mess confined to the newspapers covering the entire table; he kept flinging his hands around and stuff was getting all over the floor. I said something to him quietly a few times, he remained oblivious. Finally it was time for him to draw out his "face" on a piece of paper so my boyfriend could carve it. He picked up the paper and shook it deliberately over the floor, flinging the few seeds that were on it to the ground. He was told to clean up the floor repeatedly. Boyfriend had to physically take the pencil from him because he would not listen. Son started screaming and I removed him from the room.

My son commenced screaming at me, in my face, grabbing at my clothes, kicking at me, the entire rest of the time we were there. I tried my best to remain calm, told him he could go back to his pumpkin as soon as he calmed down and cleaned up his mess, he continued to scream NO in my face and shrieked bloody murder if I kept him from returning to the kitchen. I had to forcibly sit him down over and over as he kept charging me, screaming. I kept sternly saying "Sit Down" and telling him he could not go back to the kitchen until he got control of himself and was ready to clean up. This went on for at least 20 minutes. I could not walk away from him, he kept trying to go back to the kitchen and would NOT listen to me. During this time, I told him if he couldn't get control of himself, he would be grounded for a week. I gave him a second chance/last warning. Finally, I handed down the sentence. All it got was more screaming.

I was horrified that he acted this way in front of my boyfriend's parents. They know a little of the reason my XH and I are no longer together, but this just looked like a mom who couldn't control an 8 year old. I was just mortified and frustrated and ... so out of ideas. I don't think hitting is the answer. My daughter told me on the way home, that their dad told them if they acted up, he would smack them across the face. They are 8 and 5. Gee, think they'd act better if I threatened them too?? *grrr*

We're home. The kids are in bed. The boy sobbed all the way home, unhappy because I didn't let him finish his pumpkin... oblivious to WHY he could not and able to find no relationship between how he acted and the punishment he's to receive. He cried in bed that I don't love him. He called me mean for not letting him do his design. He refused to answer my question as to why he acts this way after he's been at his dads. I cannot talk to my XH, he just claims they are great and wonderful for him and blames my poor parenting for the trouble I have with them. I am lost ...

<small>[ October 27, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: ex Princess Buttercup ]</small>

I call it 'detoxification' and I have it down to a couple hours now. It used to take all evening and part of the next day. But I can now talk to my boys, 10 an 6, asking them what is going on, and they are able to connect their behavior with consequences rather than 'mean old Dad'.

My ex has always had very limited parenting skills. (Her brother and sisters essentially raised themselves because their mother worked so much.) So much so that she refused to take our children out almost at all until my youngest was at least about 4 years old, because it was 'too hard'. Then she would just take them to the grocery store and leave them at the child care center there. Her way of dealing with them is to just NOT deal with them. She has limited contact with them, preferring to go upstairs and watch TV in her bedroom while talking on the phone, according to my 10 year old.

My boys have learned responsibility and now seem to understand how they can affect the world and the consequences, both good and bad, with their actions. So, count them ahead of my ex on that aspect of life at least. They have more of a sense of responsibility and accountability at 10 and 6, than she does at 39 y.o.

Anyway, I just want you to know that I understand. Hold the course. Keep strong and DON'T GIVE IN... You are probably the only sense of stability that they have and they need to understand where you stand so that they will be able to form a basis for themselves as they grow. Besides, I see it over and over again, parents stand strong for 5 minutes only to 'give in' on the 6th minute. What have they taught their children? To fight until mom/dad gives in, you just have to keep fighting until you get your way. It has been proven over and over again that INTERMITTANT reinforcement is stronger at causing behavior than consistent reinforcement.

I know, some might disagree, but the unknown intermittant reinforcement pattern is the strongest at being able to form a behavior. So fighting until you get something is more behavior provoking than getting what you want every single time. And it is MUCH harder to extinguish the bad behavior after intermittant reinforcement because they think they just have to cry harder, louder, more ferociously.

Hang in there. You will get through this period. Explain that if you didn't love them, you wouldn't care what they did. That seemed to have the biggest effect on my children. That and telling them I love them about 50 times a day, even when I am doling out punishment, and explaining that the easiest thing for me to do would be nothing, and yet here I am, taking time to explain, punish, deal with them... THAT IS THE LOVE I tell them. And they can see it... I know they can.

He pitches the fit and can't get it under control, he is out of there. As in home. As in no pumpkin until he does get it under control.

Knowing you have this problem when he comes home from dad's, you took him into this environment where it would be embarassing for him to test your limits. This was a timebomb waiting to go off. You set yourself up for this one.

But, I know how hard it is. This was the best weekend for carving pumpkins. And YOU wanted to do it. And I have a son with his own share of 'issues' and who might exhibit such a gross display of misbehavior. I have set myself up several times.

Next time, maybe the pumpkins need to be gutted first. That saves you time and frustration and mess. And boredom on the part of some children.

(((((XPB)))))

Boy have I been there. I can't tell you how many times I've truncated my long-term plans because son just lost it.

I agree that it was a time bomb waiting too happen, however, I think too often the blame is put on the EX. Let give you the ex father's opinion. My kids visit and all goes well. I can count on a phone call between 9:30 and 11:00 from my ex or my kids on how bad things were when they were down or how bad the kids are when tehy return and how its related to me being a bad a parent. I am a different parent then my ex with different rules but that does not make a bad parent. I think often times my kids act when they get back to their mom's because they are frustrated at having to go between two homes, its a reminder that part of their life is not within their control and that they miss having one house with two parents. However, this comes back at me as being a bad parent. I also think that my ex pump my kids for information and that makes them feel uncomfortable. Just my thoughts.

DLW made some good points and I was thinking along the same lines. Divorce is really hard on kids... period. It's not what they want (even if they say they wanted it because parents were fighting... what they'd really like is for parents to stop fighting and stay married... happily).

Divorce disrupts their lives in many ways. Stability is lost because of going back and forth between homes. There is fear, loss, emotions that they dont' know how to share and don't even understand but are often afraid to even voice because they don't want to add more burden to already hurting parents. Mostly, life, for them, feels out of control. Something has happened that is beyond their control. They couldn't stop it even though they may have wanted to and they can't change it.

Often their anger, sadness, confusion, hurt, etc. is expressed through anger and rebellion.

Princess, I don't know your son but I imagine that he is a normal child struggling with something that has been a major upheaval in his life.

You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He was told to clean up the floor repeatedly. Boyfriend had to physically take the pencil from him because he would not listen. Son started screaming and I removed him from the room.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your son might resent your boyfriend discipling/remprimanding him or in his eyes, telling him what to do. Inwardly, he is most likely thinking, "You are not my father! I am not going to listen to you or like you!" More than likely, even though he may have never said this, your son has a "dream" that you and husband will get back together, and the boyfriend is not a real welcome person. Your son might act as if it doesn't bother him most of the time because he knows he is a child and you are the parent and he can't tell you what to do. But I imagine there is very likely anger and resentment brewing inside of him, and this was one instance of it being outwardly expressed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My son commenced screaming at me, in my face, grabbing at my clothes, kicking at me, the entire rest of the time we were there.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I don't know your circumstances, etc... but it could be that your son is angry with you for the divorce or for having a boyfriend. Or he is just expressing his anger at you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he continued to scream NO in my face and shrieked bloody murder if I kept him from returning to the kitchen. I had to forcibly sit him down over and over as he kept charging me, screaming. I kept sternly saying "Sit Down" and telling him he could not go back to the kitchen until he got control of himself and was ready to clean up. This went on for at least 20 minutes. I could not walk away from him, he kept trying to go back to the kitchen and would NOT listen to me. During this time, I told him if he couldn't get control of himself, he would be grounded for a week. I gave him a second chance/last warning. Finally, I handed down the sentence. All it got was more screaming.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My personal opinion formed from reading this is that he is very, very angry and he is venting it at you. He is probably angry at the very fact that his life is not the way he wants/wanted it to be, and he might be angry at you, your ex-husband, and your boyfriend because you all are the adults who's decisions have affected his life. I read the above description and sense that he is expressing anger outwardly and he is rebelling and trying to get some sort of control in his life (vs. letting the adults in his life be in control and make desicions that he doesn't like).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The boy sobbed all the way home, unhappy because I didn't let him finish his pumpkin...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I think his sobbing is more than just the pumpkin and the fight, but just the release of all that anger. I think he is likely really hurting inside in many ways. Like I said, even when a marriage is bad, kids don't want and don't understand divorce. It disrupts their entire world.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He cried in bed that I don't love him. He called me mean for not letting him do his design.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is very likely a release of inner anger/resentment/sorrow. And, he might truly feel that you don't love him. I don't know him or you well enough to say. He might just be saying that in his anger/rebellion. Or he might feel that because you and his dad divorced, that the two of you really don't love him. And that you are mean.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He refused to answer my question as to why he acts this way after he's been at his dads.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He probably doesn't understand well enough to know or express. Children can't "tap into" their feelings/emotions the way adults can. They often do not know the roots of their anger. Also, he might be afraid to say anything. If he knows that you hate his dad or if his dad hurt you and he saw it (you crying or sad, etc) he might be afraid of "burdening" you.

Are you familiar with James Dobson? He's got some excellent resources (books and a website www.family.org) with tremendous insight into children and raising them and why they act the way they do.

Well, again, I don't know your kids or you well enough to say any of this with certainty, but I do know that divorce is truly extremely difficult for children who are too young to 1) do anything about it, 2) completely understand it, 3) express their emotions which often they don't even recognize or understand, 4) explain to you why they are acting like they are.

In your son's perfect world, you and his dad would be happily married, loving parents, and you would be the family that he had as a young baby/child. He might have alot of deep anger/resentment because his world is not "perfect" and not the way it's "supposed" to be.

Just some thoughts...

exPrincess BC:

You BIG MEANIE!

I read your post and also struggles and questioned what I might do to be more "in tune". I am not suggesting that you are not, but I found a book that was really very helpful in gaining more insight into boys and their emotions.

It is not some tedious book filled with Freudian theory. It is, in my opinion a book that is thoughtful and filled with commom sense.

RAISING CAIN: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys. Ballentine Press
Dan Kindlon and Michael Thompson
$ 14.00, softcover.

It is a great read and not some liberal " let 'em do what they want book." It is about giving permission to boys to experience their emotions so that they may learn about them and how to effectively deal with them.(As well as you)

It is not unlike what we do here. As adults, we experience our emotions and try to "think" them through.

Just a thought.

Buttercup,
read the thread CHILD DEVELOPEMENT QUESTIONS in EN

I am having one H*ll of a time also.

Oh how I hear you and oh how I know that your are one heck of a mommy.

{{{{{{Buttercup}}}}}}}

xo
H.

Hey xpb-

Sorry to hear about the stressful evening. I think all parents of kids, whether or not a divorce situation, can sympathize and identify with what happened. You do the best you can setting and explaining the boundaries and being consistent in the consequences. Your kids are still little. Overtime, they will understand what the expectations are.

Good luck {{{{{exprincessbuttercup}}}}}

HoFS

XPB, I think we all get this, and we've learned not to plan on Sunday nights.
There are so many things I want to do with my girls, but they need their down time.
Chalk it up to experience, and stay the high road.

FC - yes, "detox" is about it. School year detox isn't nearly as bad as summertime detox, when the kids have been at dads/grandmas for a week straight. Weekend detox is usually done by Monday morning. :} I don't give in to whining, pleading or fits ... they should KNOW this.

Cinder - this was not just the best but the ONLY time for carving pumpkins as it was the only time in the two weeks before Halloween that we'd have all three kids together. I don't want to cheat the one(s) that are behaving out of the opportunity just because one might act up. I've just never seen it LIKE THIS in so long...

dlw - I'm not blaming my ex; we had different opinions of rules when we were together so I don't expect them to be the same now. If I had every other weekend, I'm sure he'd deal with some of the anger I get during the week.

LME - I'll try to give you the digest version of how we got to where we are today. *g* I left my ex in Dec '00. He was abusive in many ways, in front of the kids. I met boyfriend in May '01 and we are in a committed, for life relationship. The kids have a great relationship with him, and he doesn't try to "be dad". The kids have never had the mom-and-dad-back-together-fantasy; it's something we have talked about, and they know that mom and dad are happier and better parents apart. The boy went through the anger stage in '01. (The girl had a night terror stage about the same time.) I don't disagree that most kids are better off without divorce, but there are things worse...

Gregg - thanks for the book recommendation. I will check through the library interloan.

Hy & HoFS - thanks!

Let give you the ex father's opinion
An ex father's opinion?

<small>[ October 27, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
An ex father's opinion?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure that was unintentional, I missed it completely on my first read thru.

I can't prove that these episodes are related to how they are treated by dad and grandparents.

The best explanation for why they act up with me and not him was given by my former counselor. He thought that they felt safe enough with me to act out, that I would love them regardless of how big of a fit they threw. From little things they have said, I feel that they don't act this way when they are with their father out of fear.

Raising Cain is supposed to be good

So is Reviving Ophelia

Dobson may have some books about the matter.

I know you wanted to carve pumpkins. But it didn't have to be all three children. It didn't HAVE to be done. 6 weeks from now, the world will be no different if 1000 children don't carve pumpkins. It was a ritual you WANTED to observe.

I have worked hard to learn the difference between a RESPONSIBILITY and a PRIVILEGE. The natural consequences of a child not meeting the responsibility of behaving civilly is that the loose the privilege of doing something fun.

It's all in timing and perspective. Carve a turkey on the thing for Thanksgiving. Works as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The kids have never had the mom-and-dad-back-together-fantasy; it's something we have talked about, and they know that mom and dad are happier and better parents apart. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can not state for certain that your children have never had the "fantasy" (or perhaps rather a deeply held desire) for their parents to get back together. You told them that their parents were better off apart, so they probably would be reluctant to admit their desire for reconciliation to you. Almost all children of divorce want their parents to reunite.

Anger in children over the divorce is not simply a stage that passes. The "sleeper effect" is well-documented - anger, behavioral issues, and often (in approximately 40% of children) moderate to severe psychological issues reappear as much as several years or a decade down the road.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
Almost all children of divorce want their parents to reunite.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is true. I remember having that fantasy. I loved my mom and my dad and didn't want to split my time between them. I didn't care how they felt about each other; the fantasy was about ME. Knowing this, I still feel that my kids do not have this fantasy. I have talked to them about this, asking them how they felt (not telling them how to feel) on several occasions over the years. They remember what it was like.

I'm not saying they never just tell me what they think I want to hear. But they have talked with other people too. They also know that their dad hates their mom (not from me), but that their mom does not hate their dad, and that she prays for him.

Once my daughter said she missed the old house (trailer). She had no way of knowing what a ****hole it was. But it was the only home she had ever known, and after we moved out, XH abandoned it too. I asked her if she meant she missed when dad and mom lived together, and she said noooooo, I just miss the house. She wonders when dad is going to move back into it, and out of his parents house.

Nellie, I know you don't agree with my choice to leave my XH and especially have a problem with the fact I had a long-distance EA before I left, and a boyfriend soon after I left. But you can't tell me what my kids think. They heard and saw things in that trailer that I can only pray don't emotionally scar them for life.

I thank God for the positive relationship model they have now with Westley and I. There has never been a cross word, an elevated voice; not an inkling of a threat of violence. All I can do now is make sure that they only see loving communication from now on, and hope their memories from the trailer fade with time. Even if it means they no longer understand why I left their dad, and feel like they have to be angry with me for it. I'll never forget why I did it. I was incapable of doing anything for ME... I had no self-esteem left. It was all for them.

<small>[ October 28, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: ex Princess Buttercup ]</small>

Tucking in son last night, we talked a little about the episode.

Just when I thought I had done the right thing in standing my ground, the whole thing could have been avoided if I'd been a little more flexible.

All he wanted to do was draw his design BEFORE he cleaned up the floor.

I just got mad because he added to the mess on the floor just as he was getting ready to draw his design.

BTW, he did vaccuum the floor before we left.

Should I get him a pumpkin to do this week?

(He is still grounded from phone and computer privileges for the week for the screaming and kicking.)

<small>[ October 28, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: ex Princess Buttercup ]</small>

Once you have a child, the rest of your life IS all about them. That doesn't mean you can never again leave them with a babysitter in order to go to dinner with your friends, but any life altering decisions, such as marrying or even acquiring a new SO, should be made with the children's best interests paramount. Especially while they are still children, what is best for them is the only important factor - what is best for the adult is irrelevant.

Some people have been able to obtain temporary orders to prevent their spouses from bringing an OP around their children. I think it would be optimal for children if such a thing were possible on a permanent basis - I bet there would be a lot fewer divorces, and as a group, the children of the divorces that there were would be a lot better off, if they were never exposed to OP's or new boy/girlfriends. I realize that enforcing such a law would be a logistical nightmare and it would never get through the legislature, but I am firmly convinced that that would be best for children.