..........this will be a heated topic I bet, but here is my two cents. I believe my children are better off with my divorce than they were prior. Their mother and I cursed....and faught so much, I can not see any way that staying together could have benefitted them. (EVEN...though I wanted to stay married for the families sake.) I remember looking at their little faces and seeing the tears running down their faces and the hurt in their little eyes as their mother and I tried to kill one another. True their original family is not in tact anymore and my kids have a new step mother and brother......but, I guarantee they are happy not seeing the hurt their mother and I tried to place upon one another. Anyone have thoughts?

I've done a lot of reading on this topic. There are specialists who believe that the problems that children of divorced parents develop are far more damaging than the problems they develop from being a part of the abusive/dysfunctional family. While I think that depends on just how bad the abuse is and whether it is directed at the children, the intangible changes that these children can go through are truly frightening.
They may appear happy, but make sure you do your research and are prepared for problems that tend to developed at various ages. These include problems with emotional attachment, fear of abandonment, tendency to engage in risky behaviors (sex, drugs, alcohol), problems with authority figures, poor performance in school, and on and on. A lot of research has been done on this...start reading. I have a book that has a great article on this. I'll need to remember to look it up when I get home tonight.
How old are your children?

Smile

They are young.......3 and 7.

Obviously, your only option at this point is to do whatever you can to understand the problems that arise psychologically for these children and be prepared and armed to help them.
Are either of them in counseling?
When my parents divorced, I was only 5. I apparently was acting out and for that reason put into counseling, but it is just as important for kids who appear be okay because they may be repressing their feelings. I can still remember the recurrent nightmares I had after the divorce...much clearer than I can remember anything that really happened. Make sure that they feel comfortable telling you how they feel about this. Include them in decision-making. They had no say in the destruction of their family and that is one of the most devastating parts of it--make sure they have a voice.
It has been found that divorce is the second most traumatic event for children...second to the death of a family member. The effects are long lasting and many times some of them do not appear for a very long time. Educate yourself.

I think it is wrong to choose to divorce for the benefit of the children. It is wrong to justify it that way. The choice should be to get every last bit of help to preserve their family. Counseling, anger management, substance abuse help...you're doing them no favor unless you are doing everything you can to save their family. Since it is too late to save their family, make sure you are doing everything possible to preserve civility and functionality between those people that the children care for and know what problems tend to arise for the children as they grow older.

Take care,
Smile

My son is two... (what about him?)
And I am scared... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Btw, is it really better for a child to live with very unhappy parent while married, vs. pleased one when divorced?

I reached the point when I thought/think - If I stayed, my son wouldn't have me at all!
(I'd get sick, mentally, and go more and more down... grow bitter...)

So, I'm going 'out' for my health sake and feel enormous guild that I don't stay - for my son's sake...

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My son is two... (what about him?)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what the effects are for children too young to remember the divorce. That'd obviously go for StartinOver's younger one, too. I wasn't too young, but rather repressed the devastating memories. There's a big difference there.
My younger brother who was 3 at the time of our parent's divorce has definitely shown many of the effects that are predicted for children of divorced parents, but I think most of the problem came from not having a stable father figure (as opposed to experiencing the actual trauma of the family being torn apart--although my parents still do not get along 22 years later). My mother could not live alone (emotionally) and she brought men into our lives, wanted us to treat them like a father, then wanted us to forget them when she was through with them. That's not very easy on a kid who needs a father figure. That was a huge problem for me, too.
I'll see what research I can find to share with you.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Btw, is it really better for a child to live with very unhappy parent while married, vs. pleased one when divorced?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are so many factors to weigh and I'm not even sure I know what to believe. But yes, there is a school of thought that believes that a child is better off living with unhappy, married parents than happy divorced parents.

In my last child development course, I read an article that was about whether a child should be removed from an abusive family (the child was being abused). As I began, I was 100% for removing the child. But, as I read and began to understand the trauma that occurs from separating a child from one or both parents, I really started leaning toward supervised parenting in which the child remains with the family while receiving help to fix the problems of abuse.

The power, sense of security, emotional attachments, etc. that are stripped from a child when a parent leaves creates real problems. And some people believe that the effects are worse than the loss of the same things that occur from abuse.

Take a class in child development. Understanding the psychlogical stages that children go through will help you greatly understand how to help them.

I don't know how much you respect the perspective I'm sharing since I am not yet a parent, but I have educated myself in this area and also went through it as a child and adult of divorced parents. It's just another perspective to weigh in. You really should educate yourself and form your own opinions for the sake of your children.

Smile

Thanks!

(I think I'll never again to live with anyone... giving up... will have my dad and a close cousin to be 'kind of father figure'... don't believe his own father will give himself to his son in future...)

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> days and days thinking of consequences on my son and CANNOT go back... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

BTN, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's probably too soon for you to think about even letting yourself grow attached to another man, but time will help. I was actually very happy each time my mom brought a man in to our lives...the real pain came each time she got rid of the man. I went through multiple father figures and each time I lost one (even if I didn't get along very well with him) it was difficult. Looking back, the hard part was how my mom just expected us to let go. I've become a pro at that. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Smile

This is a very interesting topic.

I too have thought long and hard about the consequences of ending my marriage. When all the problems surfaced (H's EA, H wanting separation) I found this site and did everything I could to try and save the M.

H left for 4 mo, came back, but never really committed to the M. The same problems exist: he's in contact w/OW, he takes solo vacations, he tapes my conversations, he hides money, he's not committed to the M, we haven't gone to MC, we fight in front of the kids, H threatens to quit his job and not pay CS, etc.

I finally retained an attorney. I haven't actually filed anything yet. H and I are meeting w/a mediator tomorrow to discuss property division. H claims he doesn't want this over, but still shows no signs of committment. He still hasn't proven its over w/OW although he claims it is, again. He still hides cell phone.

The older kids have finally accepted it (they're 12 and 8), the 3 yr old doesn't really know what's going on but senses something is wrong. He wants to sleep w/one of us instead of his own bed ever since we started sleeping apart. He did this while H was gone also.

I agree that the damage is much deeper than we may seem and I have apologized to my kids for the situation, but I can't live like this anymore-w/a spouse who lies, hides things, deceives, and continues contact w/OP. What kind of example is that for my kids, especially my daughters. I feel tremendous guilt over the breakup, especially since I am the one seeking it now.

H turns the blame on me, again, as he does everthing. But should I try and salvage a M to a selfish, immature, narcicisstic man who only wants me because its 'cheaper to keep her'. If it wasn't for the financial cost, he'd have left long ago.

I found a website that makes an excellent point about the effects of divorce on chidren. What the research shows is that children from divorced families, when compared to children from intact families, are at higher risk of having problems in development, but most children from divorced families are perfectly normal. There is a larger group of children from divorced families who have problems, but even in the studies with the gloomiest outcomes, over half the children were doing fine. But people tend to look at the research and think what it means is that all children who come from divorced homes will have problems.

ARE_CHILDREN_OF_DIVORCE_WORSE_OFF_THAN_CHILDREN_IN_MARRIED_TWO-PARENT_FAMILIES?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong> [QUOTE].

In my last child development course, I read an article that was about whether a child should be removed from an abusive family (the child was being abused). As I began, I was 100% for removing the child. But, as I read and began to understand the trauma that occurs from separating a child from one or both parents, I really started leaning toward supervised parenting in which the child remains with the family while receiving help to fix the problems of abuse.


</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is all fine and dandy in wonderland, but in the real world where one parent is willing to seek help and counseling and the other isnt.....then what. That was the case I was in.

I also have read about this, it is a complex issue, but seems to have little to do with marital "status" and everything to do with parenting. Keep in mind that marriage is a legal construct, children have no way to know if one is "married", "living together", or "divorced", no such evolutionary mechanism can exist obviously. Children don't even know who their parents are unless someone tells them...if being raised by a bio parent was essential, then all adopted children would grow up with serious problems solely from being adopted...that is not the case.

What is important is a child grow up in a safe enviroment, with lots of positive validation, and good role modeling/mentoring. The trouble with divorce is that if the divorced parents do a poor parenting job, the child will experience the consequencs....however that also applies to intact families that do a poor parenting job, which also happens with depressing regularity. IMO the fact that there is a slight increase in the likelihood divorced kids will fare less well than kids from dysfunctional intact families, represents nothing more than the the pool of divorced people will include a higher proportion of individuals who are inadequate parents...whether divorced or not. It is the child's unfortunate lot in life to be born to people who have no business having kids in the first place.

The only way to actually get to the bottom of this would be to put dysfunctional marriages back together, observe the effect of this horrendous enviroment on the child and see if they fare better or not....this is of course impossible, so we can never really say what exactly is the outcome of staying married for the kids, when you would otherwise divorce. But we can say inadequate parenting, whether married or not, will have a negative impact on children. IMO children should be the reason one makes the extra effort to be sure the marriage is not going to work (won't be a safe, healthy, nurturing, joyous place)...but children are not a good reason to stay married if you would otherwise divorce. If a family does find it necessary to restructure itself, nothing prevents the parents from still being nurturing parents....it just takes committment and some creativity. Children do not necessarily "care" one way or another about their parents marital status...but they do "care" a great deal about the emotional/psychological enviroment they grow up in. Divorce creates some challenges in that regard, but it is not automatically a bad thing.

If one has two excellent parents, but who do not each fit each other very well so divorce, but continue to be nurturing parents, working closely together for their kids, there will be no negative impact on the child according to the studies I have read. This makes sense as well, otherwise children who have lost a parent to death, or children of parents where one is gone most of the time (due to work, military, etc.) would automatically be doomed...but that isn't what happens....IF the kids are properly mentored/nurtured.

All children who go through a divorce will deal with problems that come with the divorce, but not all children will have developmental problems. That's why I'm not taking the "your kids are doomed" stance, but rather encouraging the parents to research the areas where children have problems (the "high risk" areas) so that they are prepared to help their children.
For example, if you know that children of divorced parents tend to have problems with premature sexual relations, than you can keep an eye out for early symptoms and have a more knowledgeable and helpful stance with which to approach your child.
When I went to high school away from home, I was very vulnerable. I was always looking for a father figure and found some of those features in the guy I dated (authority, male, whatever). I had sex with that boy at 16 years old, long before I was ready...he coerced me ( I felt very uncomfortable, knew it was wrong, didn't want to do it, but didn't want to drive away this guy who was "taking care of me") and I really think that I was susceptible to that coercion because of my lack of a father figure and need to latch on to males. If my mom had known about that tendency, she could have helped me understand my feelings and prepared me to be stronger.

Know what the high risk areas are. Be ready for them. Your kids will probably be fine. Some of the problem areas are simply things that kids go through, but this is your chance to help them with those, as well.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:I don't know how much you respect the perspective I'm sharing since I am not yet a parent, but I have educated myself in this area and also went through it as a child and adult of divorced parents. It's just another perspective to weigh in. You really should educate yourself and form your own opinions for the sake of your children.
Smile [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I respect... yes, another perspective... also, 'neutral' opinion could be more helpful than when emotions are involved... sometimes...

Any good book I could read? (never enough education <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )


Anyway, let's look at from a bit different angle:
my both parents grew up with no father (WWII victims) - great people!

I was actually very happy each time my mom brought a man in to our lives...the real pain came each time she got rid of the man. I went through multiple father figures and each time I lost one (even if I didn't get along very well with him) it was difficult.
Which is why you should be "serious" (dating for at least 6 months or so with someone before introducing them to your kids.

As a parent the number one job is raising the children, not hoping your kids will get along with your "dates".

.... apology (if I sound sensless, not that I'm not quite these months...) - typing from work, interrupted... and no time after work...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If one has two excellent parents, but who do not each fit each other very well so divorce, but continue to be nurturing parents, working closely together for their kids, there will be no negative impact on the child according to the studies I have read.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the case in my guy's family. His parents divorced when he was in his teens (oldest of 4 kids). The parents have always worked well together to parent and support the children emotionally and financially. His family remains very strong and healthy. Yes, the girls seem to exhibit some of the detachment, trust, and self-image issues that come with going through a divorce, but these same issues could have happened, anyway.
It is really difficult to draw conclusions. That's why I say that parents should know the trends (there are behavorial trends) and be ready for the challenges. Doomed? I hope this thread isn't about the children being doomed because of the divorce. Use what you have and do the best you can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is important is a child grow up in a safe enviroment, with lots of positive validation, and good role modeling/mentoring. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, yes, I do agree with this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO the fact that there is a slight increase in the likelihood divorced kids will fare less well than kids from dysfunctional intact families, represents nothing more than the the pool of divorced people will include a higher proportion of individuals who are inadequate parents...whether divorced or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not so sure I agree with this. Yes, that may be a big part of it, but a lot of the problems come from being physically separated from the parent. If the child forms an attachment to an adult, who cares about instincts and genetics...the child lost a bond with someone they loved (whether it was a healthy relationship or not). Btw, the strongest attachments occur during infancy. That attachment could have been with a chimpanzee...the child becomes emotionally bonded at a very early age.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> I was actually very happy each time my mom brought a man in to our lives...the real pain came each time she got rid of the man. I went through multiple father figures and each time I lost one (even if I didn't get along very well with him) it was difficult.
Which is why you should be "serious" (dating for at least 6 months or so with someone before introducing them to your kids.

As a parent the number one job is raising the children, not hoping your kids will get along with your "dates". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with Chris here.......I didnt wait 6mo. of course, but I knew my wife was different and felt comfortable enough with her to bring her around my children. Actually I met her at Chuck-e-cheese and my kids and her son played together before we actually started dating.

One thing that I think is just as bad as bringing alot of dates around children is what my EX is doing.........bringing a married man around my kids who is there sometimes, but not there alot more often. My children do NOT know what to think. At least in my household we have a close knit family situation. My wife's son is with us everyday and my children have a room for themselves. We put our children at the top of our responsibilities........my EX doesnt seem to care.


Oh yeah! get this.........my EX brings OM over to the house and goes out to dinner with him and my children.....BUT!! when they are at church, he sits with his wife and my children do not even go over to speak with him because of the messy situation. How is that for looking out for the childrens interest???