Sufb,

I understand your points re: good parenting, but a child can (and usually does, depending on age, personality, etc) "suffer" as a result of a parent's divorce EVEN IF the parents are good.

I would venture to add as well, that children raised by good parents suffer even more from a divorce.

If the parents are good parents, then they are not fighting in front of the children, they are not badmouthing each other to the children, they are not putting children in the middle or creating an unstable, angry home environment for them. So, in other words, they are keeping their problems from the children (unless maybe the children are older and they are honestly talking to them about the problems).

Thus, when the divorce does occur, because there hasn't been verbal brawls, open abuse, etc... the children are even more devestated. They didn't know that mom and dad hate each other.

What I am getting at is this... most adults (or children at the time of a divorce) who say that they were glad for the divorce say so because a parent was abusive or adulterous or the parents were fighting all the time. To me, that is not good parenting. A good parent doesn't have affairs, doesn't abuse anyone, and doesn't verbally fight in front of kids.

When good parents divorce, it is even more of a shock and upset to the kids. The kids don't say things like, "Well, I'm glad 'cause dad abuses us all anyways" or "Good, becuase I'm tired of hearing them fight."

No, the child is shocked, devestated, heartbroken. Why would any child be happy that dad or mom is leaving their home when that parent was a good parent to them?? I can understand them feeling relief if a "bad" parent leaves... but it makes no sense that a "good" parent's departure would be beneficial to a child.

You could probably argue forever that divorce doesn't affect children if a parent is a good parent, but it's not logical. A parent can be a very good parent, but yet, a divorce can still devastate a child... perhaps even moreso when the parents are good parents.

Why does one parent have to be a "bad" parent? In divorces, there is usually two sides. I agree that divorce is never easy for any child. Ever. The affect on children vary from child to child and divorce to divorce. What I think some posters are trying to say is that divorce can be a lot less painful and certainly not lifelong affecting, IF the parents handle it the right way. It has been said, and proven to some, that divorce per se is not truly harmful to kids. True it is not easy or to be taken lightly. What is truly harmful to children though is the fighting between parents prior, during, and after divorce. It is the parents who keep fighting that does the most damage. Sometimes it harms them permanently.

Here is an article on divorce that I have. It is very insightful. There is alot of good information out there (internet, books, articles) on helping children "survive" divorce.


Children & Divorce: The Effects Of Divorce On Children:

For obvious reasons, children see divorce as something very traumatic. They are often concerned with their own security, not always with their parent's happiness. Children will question:

What if they both leave me?
What is it that I did wrong?
Did I cause the divorce?
Now what's going to happen to me?


Children react in different ways with the onset of divorce. Some will be extremely sad and show signs of depression and even sleeplessness. Anxiety levels peak as they feel they are going to be abandoned or rejected by one or even both parents. Some divorce situations may make the child feel lonely. This may be due to a long absence of one of the parents.

No matter what the situation, the child will be affected in some way by a divorce. Some children may become psychologically scarred from the experience, and still other children may not be affected emotionally at all. Much depends on how well the parents are able to handle the situation.

Uncontrollable Bad Effects

Divorce can produce bad effects that cannot be controlled. Money, or lack of it, becomes a problem. Child support payments and financial assistance place a monetary strain on one or both parents, whcih directly affects the children.

In some instances, one of the parents may have to relocate. This brings with it a new set of problems; children having to adjust to a new school, friends, and environment.

The Loss of Family

Family structure is very important. Divorce in the family environment requires the family to restructure. Both parents must continue to play an important role in the life of their child. It is generally a good idea that the parents design a well thought out parenting plan in order to keep some predictability in the family structure. This is good for the sake of the child. Divorce does not have to mean the end of a family.

It is also good for the children to keep close ties with other relatives. Even if you as the parent do not get along with the extended family, children need these people in their lives.

Birthdays and Holidays

For parents and their children, holidays and birthdays after a divorce can be one of the most difficult things with which to deal. Remember that the first birthday, the first Christmas, the first anything spent without a former spouse is traumatic. As each year passes, the family will feel more comfortable with new environments and new ways to celebrate.

With a divorce you may lose your ex-spouse, but you never lose the responsibility of being a parent. You and your ex-spouse will always be your children's parents, and it is wrong for any parent to deny the other parent the pleasures of spending holidays and birthdays with their children.

Step-Families

Step-families can be very complicated. The number of children that are involved, and how the children get along with the new step-parent are very important factors to consider when dealing with the structure of a step-family.

In spite of the fact that step-families are very complex and difficult, it is possible for the new family to become a very strong family unit. Everyone involved must have time to adjust to the new way the family operates. Each step-family member must also look at things from the other step-family member's point of view. Remember that a new step-family member cannot just jump into a new family and take charge. The new family must take things very slowly, and each family member must carefully think things out before they act.

This is a very interesting excerpt re: Wallerstein. Also re: other studies that support the evidence that has been seen the past many years of divorce and its long-term effects on children.

Again, my belief is divorce doesn't have to "doom" a child's future, but it is ignorant to say that divorce doesn't affect a child. A truly good, loving parent will acknowledge that the divorce has hurt the child, and then that parent will do all he/she can to minimize the affects to the best of his/her ability.

The below info. is from a report done in 1998 by a joint committee.


"Critics argued that Wallerstein's sample was too small and questioned her research methodology. However, almost ten years later, at the 1998 Annual Conference of the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts in Washington, D.C. - which was attended by a group of Members of this Committee - a panel of sociologists and psychologists argued that Wallerstein's findings were correct, because larger research studies in the United States and Great Britain had subsequently supported them.

Lamb, Sternberg and Thompson wrote about the negative impact of divorce on children in 1997:

Most children of divorce experience dramatic declines in their economic circumstances, abandonment (or the fear of abandonment) by one or both parents, the diminished capacity of both parents to attend meaningfully and constructively to their children's needs (because they are preoccupied with their own psychological, social and economic distress as well as stresses related to the legal divorce), and diminished contact with many familiar or potential sources of psycho-social support (friends, neighbours, teachers, schoolmates, etc.) as well as familiar living settings.

As a consequence, the experience of divorce is a psychosocial stressor and significant life transition for most children, with long-term repercussions for many. Some children from divorced homes show long-term behaviour problems, depression, poor school performance, acting out, low self-esteem, and (in adolescence and young adulthood) difficulties with intimate heterosexual relationships.

Amato and Keith analyzed 37 divorce studies, involving 81,000 individuals, that investigated the long-term consequences of parental divorce for adult well-being. This analysis showed a significant pattern of problematic after-effects for adults and children. The authors concluded:

The data show that parental divorce has broad negative consequences for quality of life in adulthood. These include depression, low life satisfaction, low marital quality and divorce, low educational attainment, income, and occupational prestige, and physical health problems. These results lead to a pessimistic conclusion: the argument that parental divorce presents few problems for children's long-term development is simply inconsistent with the literature on this topic."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
<strong> This is a very interesting excerpt re: Wallerstein. Also re: other studies that support the evidence that has been seen the past many years of divorce and its long-term effects on children.

Again, my belief is divorce doesn't have to "doom" a child's future, but it is ignorant to say that divorce doesn't affect a child. A truly good, loving parent will acknowledge that the divorce has hurt the child, and then that parent will do all he/she can to minimize the affects to the best of his/her ability.

The below info. is from a report done in 1998 by a joint committee.


"Critics argued that Wallerstein's sample was too small and questioned her research methodology. However, almost ten years later, at the 1998 Annual Conference of the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts in Washington, D.C. - which was attended by a group of Members of this Committee - a panel of sociologists and psychologists argued that Wallerstein's findings were correct, because larger research studies in the United States and Great Britain had subsequently supported them.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes and no. They supported the findings that in some children whose parents divorce, effects persist into adulthood. They supported the finding that divorce is a significant stressor for kids, in that a larger percentage of children whose parents divorced experienced problems than did those who lived in stable two parent families. However, the majority of children whose parents divorced were doing just as well as the kids from two parent families. That formulation "a panel of sociologists and psychologists argued that Wallerstein's findings were correct" is interesting, too, because I can argue anything-I can argue that the moon is made of green cheese if I want to. The studies referred to found smaller percentages of children with problems than Wallerstein did, but your source doesn't seem to mention that.

Mavis Hetherington, the woman I cited earlier who has studied 1400 familes and and 2500 children for up to 32 years, does talk about the correlation between divorce and children not doing well is stronger than that between cigarette smoking and cancer, BUT she also talks about how for some women and girls, divorce can lead to greater mental health and well being. And even Hetherington shows that twice as many girls from families who divorced were doing as well as kids from intact families and about 4 times as many boys from the study group were doing just as well as the kids from intact families.

So, yes, divorce has a negative impact on the lives of many children, but not every child whose parents divorce is going to wind up with serious problems. The majority will be no different from children from intact families, and some will be better off than they would have been if their own families had stayed intact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, yes, divorce has a negative impact on the lives of many children, but not every child whose parents divorce is going to wind up with serious problems.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mostly agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Much of it depends on the child's age at the time, their personality, the extent of the problems in the home prior to the divorce (adultery, abuse, etc), and the way parents handle the divorce during and after. All of these will affect the types of problems a child might face as a child and as an adult.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The majority will be no different from children from intact families</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here I'd have to say that the minority will be "no different." There are far too many studies showing this to be true. And I know far too many adults from divorced families that prove it to be true. And I know far too many adults from intact families (who are very stable, well-rounded, confident, etc people who didn't face the same types of fears, losses, etc. as a child in a divorced home faces) who prove it to be true.

You be the judge of a real live event,,,

When my W left, one of the things she stated was lets be mature and responsible with this divorce. Lets make it as peaceful as possible.
When she left, she left w/o our two children, ages 3, and 5. I wrote up an agreement, asking/requesting that our children be with ehr while I worked, and with me while she worked. We work opposite shifts. She refused, with excuse after excuse.
About 2 months later she came back with an ex-parte order, giving her custody. She had her first sons grandparents become this so called third neutral party. These people, and my two children have never met prior to this.

I have been the primary parent, now these two strangers to my children, now had more rights than i, as their bio father!
My children were not allowed to call me, i no longer could visit the school, or pick up, or take daughter to school.

When it was time to return my children, to these perfectly well strangers, they would literally scream, run down the sidewalk, or grasp, and hold onto anything they desperately could grab! and refuse! to let go. When we were about to exist the vehicle, they would grap anything, and everything again screaming and balling, as me, they're father would have to literally force them out of the van. Their own father, whom i'm sure have always believed that i was to protect them! Instaed, i'm now doing what they felt, as the opposite! Coming from their own father!!!

So ofetn i would hear these words from my two little children,, no daddy, please daddy no!? Why daddy, why are you doing this daddy? Dady please,, as they would cry harded and harder! begging, pleading with me, the person whom its instilled into children as their protector! I felkt as though i was handing my, i'm sorry, placing my children right into the flames!!!

My son, who was only two, if he thought he has to change clothes before he had to leave, he would scrunch up, trying to maintain hold on each article with all of his little smite, crying, balling, filled with nothing but fear.

"IF" he would notice my wedding band on, he would become upset, begin crying saying take off, thats mommy's hers mean hers ugly. I removed it, and kept it off, for him.

Eventually i won custody of our children, Thank You God!!!

I'm sure to some extent its normal for children to experience the seperation anxiety,,, with my first two, they never had any of this!
When I had to place my 3year old son into daycare, look out. The lady there, would get kicked, scrathced, hair pulled, and even punched! As my son would scream and cry, again asking me why daddy, why?!

In cases like this, i wished my vocabulary was better, because i sure would like just one, just *ONE* parent who may be contemplating divorce, to think about it a lot longer! And go thru this Retrouvaille program the children do fare much better, watching, or listening to mommy and daddy yell at each other! I too come from a divorced family, where my parents yelled, openly. I sure would have rather had them together, yelling, opposed to having a part time parent, and a part time child feeling from within myself as well.

They say children will get over it, thats what the world says! How many of these experts have been there, and done that.

After reading just some of what my children have already had to experience in such an early life, can any of you really, and i do mean seriously say that they are better off? That they will get over it? These scars are etched permanent. And if they aren't, i will be damned surprised.

The world says if your going to divorce, do it when the children are younger. They'll get over it, they will be better off.
Do you really think and believe this? Its permanent scars, oh yeah, we can learn to cope with them, that may make it ok,,,
Afterall, we are only just "human."

Yes, i'm still angered over what my children had to witness, experience, and feel. All for the sake of, ANOTHER PERSON! An Affair!
Commonly known as the "grass in greener theory!"

I'm still STANDING! in Michigan
www.rejoiceministries.org

Hi Stephen,

It's the testimonies of others, like yourself, that are so strong and powerful. I think that's why the studies are important (regardless of the amount or types of people interviewed). While there are possibly those few children/adults who aren't/weren't affected by a parent's divorce, it does not minimize the fact that many, many children/adults have been "scarred" by a parent's divorce. I mean, it's wondeful for those individuals who assumedly weren't affected negatively, but that does nothing to negate the fact that there are thousands of children/adults who have been affected by the divorce of parents.

What you said about rather having you parents yelling in home than divorced. I never thought of that before. My parents fought alot and I believed and said I was "happy" they divorced. But goodness! My mother was extremely depressed after the divorce. So much of that time, all I knew of her was her crying and unable to really be actively involved in our lives because she was hurting so badly. She was even suicidal. My father, on the other hand, was out of the house. He was angry, etc. And, like your parents, they still yelled but now, they didn't just yell, but they said awful things to us about each other, trying to convince us that it was the other one's fault.

I, like you, look back and think I'd rather have the yelling in the house than the yelling plus the depression plus the blaming plus me having to feel bad because I spent Christmas with one and not the other. That was the worst of all I believe... for me.

It was not until college that I finally realized that yes, I was sad and hurt and angry that my parents divorced. It was the first that I realized how it affected me not having a father in my home, etc. Although, I certainly can look back on my childhood and see a young girl who had many fears, insecurities, etc. which I believe are mostly the result of my parent's divorce and simply of watching the aftermath.

It is interesting because it seems to me that most people who believe divorce negatively affects children are the ones who didn't want the divorce. And it seems that the people who say it does not affect children negatively are the ones who filed for the divorce. I have just noticed this and wonder what you think about that.

M broke up because we had become friends instead of lovers after 17yrs. X told 11yr old son about MOW & affair. Now he doesnt understand why his son wont speak or see him. dad is engaged to OW. X told son that if he comes to see him they can stay at a motel. dad knows how son feels about OW. Son went from A,B, average to C in 2 weeks. son failed 8th grade. Drepression came, he gained over 150lbs. Our son doesnt understand dad hate & angry. Threating phone calls, court ordered medical unpaid, no birthday present from dad. The list goes on. Our son has improved since we moved over 1 1/2 yrs ago. He is wanting to go outside, before he stayed in his room all day with blinds closed. Making new friends, wanting to lose some weight. Doing good in school. son believes dad will try to kill me so he can have custody of him. He still has nightmares about that one. I did ask what would it take for him to start seeing or speaking to dad. his answer was he wants his dad to tell him he is sorry for the A & to leave OW & never see her again. I know that day will never come. I believe that staying with X would have destroyed both me & my son. My health was failing trying to cope with A. I was so lost in my pity, that I forgot that my son was hurting too.

M broke up because we had become friends instead of lovers after 17yrs. X told 11yr old son about MOW & affair.
The affair, not being "friends", is what caused your marriage to break up.

LoveMyEx,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is interesting because it seems to me that most people who believe divorce negatively affects children are the ones who didn't want the divorce. And it seems that the people who say it does not affect children negatively are the ones who filed for the divorce.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myself, i've been to both sides. I listened to what my w had to say.
Overall, divorce is selfish, with long lasting results! Regardless.

I'm wondering, is it allowed to become more narrow minded, than what people actually are, or can be? Especially, if it will satisfy their own personal gains!?

The arguements between W and myself, yes we had them, but our roof top was never to be raised, they weren't that often, especially to support a divorce decision, and to "convince" herself that our children will be better off.

Thats what the "world" tells us,,, phooey on what the world tells us,

God of Israel tells us He hates divorce.