Hi All:

Our divorce was final 7 months ago, back in April 2003. The beginning of the end started when I confessed breaking my wedding vows. My x-wife found it impossible to forgive and to try again. And at the same time, she immediately started a relationship with a man she already knew and had an interest in. As it is very difficult to "build two houses" at the same time, our reconcilation was basically not given any real chance.

Ok, I am trying very hard to accept this and I am gradually moving on. Over the last 1.5 years, I really have worked on myself. I have read, talked, analyzed, prayed, cried, laughed, and really tried to go deep within myself regarding what I did to destroy our marriage. I also have cared for my two children as best I can. Time has passed and I now am happy to say I have a girlfriend whom I really care about. She is good with my children and also has a daughter from a former marriage whom I am growing close to. This relationship is not the solution to all my problems, but it does feel good to have someone care about me. We do not yet have any formal commitment to one another, but it is moving in that direction.

The problem I have though regards my wife`s relationship (or lack of) with our children and the continued secrecy of the relationship she has with her boyfriend. Even after 19 months, my children have not met this "mystery man". Nor has this man met anyone in my x-wife`s family and friend circle. Although the relationship is seemingly extremely important to her, she is reluctant to disclose anything about it. Of course, this is entirely her right, but it does cause some anxiety and uncertaintly in our children especially when she sees them so rarely.

Since the day my x-wife moved out back in February, my two children have spent the large majority of time with me at my home. My x-wife and I "had" agreed that the children would spend alternating weeks, but this has not become a reality at all. Indeed, my children prefer to stay with me because they feel my home is their real home. However, it really amazes me that my x-wife has not been more pro-active in asking them to spend time at her place. She will call now and then, but she never provides any schedule nor contributes any regularity to her parenting responsibilities. She claims that that this "random" approach to parenting is ok with our children simply because when she asks them if they are ok, they say, "Yeah, we are ok". I know better. I see my children 95% of the time and I see that they are suffering from her lack of involvement. They are very different children than they were 19 months ago. Perhaps my x-wife fears that her having more contact with her children will scare her boyfriend away.

At this stage, I am still opting for zero contact with my x-wife. For me, the pain is still too great so long as her relationship remains hidden. I keep fantasizing that because she is reluctant to "publicize" her relationship, she may in some way be "questioning" the relationship which would therefore leave open a window for me. I know this is nonsense, but it is hard not to think this way. This thinking is also detrimental and unfair to the potential of the relationship I have growing with my girlfriend. I would like to move forward towards a mature adult friendship with my x-wife but I really need to see proof that she and he are a "real" couple. My principle is also that I must "first" see that this boyrfriend of hers can be a good role model for my chldren. I want to see that he can be their friend. Once I am secure in this knowledge, I am ready to welcome both my x-wife and her boyfriend into my life as friends (perhaps not as very close friends, but friends nonetheless with whom I can be civil and respectful).

Help me wise "MB forum people". How can I best help my children? Should I somehow encourage my x-wife to be open about her relationship so that everything will be out in the open? Should I abandon this no contact policy even if I know it will cause me terrible pain? Should I "kick her in the pants" and tell her to be a better parent? Or should I just mind my own damn business?


Wondering Aloud in Finland

Mind your own damn business. You can't make her be the parent you want her to be, any more than I can make my X be a real parent.
Be the best parent you can for your children. Help them deal with their feelings and the fact that their mother chooses not to be involved in their lives. There are many good books and ways to help children with this. Do what you can for them. I know you want them to have an involved mother, but it's not up to you. I say these words because I myself need to learn to "let go" of my expectations of the father of my children. I feel guilty that this is what I've given them. But I have no control over this, I can only do what I feel is best for them, when I am with them.

Did you ever wonder that perhaps she doesn't bring this man around because he's married? Secrets fester, if so, it will blowup.

Let it go.

Keep in mind that God loves your children too, and whatever your xw does, He has a plan to turn this for their good. Read Romans 8:28 and just help them develop a loving relationship with their Heavenly Father. That's what a loving father would do best for his children!

Why is she not seeing the kids? Well, she is living la vida loca...she feels vindicated b/c you had affairs btw...

And she's secretive because she knows at some level in her little foggy life that it's still wrong...wrong to leave and choose divorce but also wrong to leave the kids like she has...however, I add that she HAD the option of divorce because of your adultery.

What I am confused about is this...you say that you HAVE A GIRLFRIEND AND IT IS MOVING TOWARDS committment...You then later say that, with regard to your xw, that somehow the window could be let open for you.

Make a decision. Don't cling to your gf b/c she's just a person there. Either you want a committment from her or you want to restore your marriage. You CANNOT MOVE ON if you have one foot stuck in the past and one foot stepping towards the future. It's either restore it or ignore it.

I tried for a while and made some progress 2 years ago and even for a little while in 2002. Then he went totally downhill from there, my xh.

I ask myself after reading a reply from my buddy Formerly Confused, if I would ever want to get back with my x if he came crawling back today...The man he is now, without any kind of real personal change, nauseates me. There's no way I'd want him back the way he is now. Not a chance in hades. And yet you wonder why your xw is off in la la land...well, when women are cheated upon, we act out...some of us get angry, some of us get hurt, and some of us get even. She chose to get even. You opened the door for adultery and I can tell you from my personal experience that I hardened my heart after his repeated affairs. Now his mistress is pregnant and he's living with her and her illegitimate three year old son and my child age five has to see this every other week whether I like it or not until I save up enough to fight him again.

I find it ironic that people who cheat get mad at their results. I applaud the fact you came clean and have tried to restore your marriage, but she may have been hurt beyond belief when learning of your betrayals. OM is a bandaid, but she may bail for good and may have. When you cheat, rarely does the WS realize that their very actions could quite possibly make their spouses turn away from them forever and they may lose all they once held dear..

Make a decision with what to do regarding either restoring the marriage or being with the gf. Look at it this way, you cheated on your w, now you aren't being totally up front with the new woman in your life either.

And spend your time with the kids primarily. They need you more than ever. You have to be a rock. Switching blame to justify having a serious relationship so quickly after a divorce is a recipe for disaster in my book. I am spending time getting to know me and finding who I am again...who is Peachy? now that I am no longer a wife, I am still a mother and still yet a woman and finding who I am is important now.

No the OM is not married. He has been married though twice before (once official, and once common law). He basically left his common-law wife when my X became available. It is just that he does not like kids nor wants to have any new complications in his life. My x-wife did not choose him because he would be a good role model for her children. She chose him because he was attractive physically, had a good sense of humor, could write about his feelings, and basically was in the midst of breaking up from a woman (x`s work colleague) for whom my x-wife had little respect. Now though after 19 months, where can their relationship go if he is not willing to embrace all aspects of her life? He has not yet met my children nor has he ever experienced a challenging evening caring for them. I guess that day will come. Will he stick it out or will he run?

Very good advice you give too. Bascially, I have been minding my own business and have been trying very hard to let go. I have just been trying to think what is best for my children and perhaps that is why it is so hard to let go. Wouldn`t it be best for them to have their original family unit back in tact? My wife is going through a deep crisis, but she is still a very good person. Shouldn`t I just be patient and wait for my x-wife`s infactuation to blow over? Some of you may be saying, "but you are already divorced, move on!" This is true, but all during the divorce process, my x-wife said that it is just a piece of paper, that we would more than likely return together anyway. Well it did not happen, but perhaps it explains why my hope has been drawn out like thread on a spinning wheel. She kept giving me what I perceived as hope and I was foolish enough not to see the truth. I know, I know, the choice is mine!! Someone once said (perhaps at this forum) that marrying the same person again is like putting sour milk back in the fridge. This is how I must think about it.

Peachy you also said some very wise things. I am fully aware of my "feelings" dilemma. That is why I have not yet committed to my girlfriend. I am not hiding anything from her though. She is fully aware of how I feel for my x-wife and for my family. She and I talk about our inner feelings constantly; everything out in the open. So yes, I am being totally up front with her. She herself is fresh from a divorce, and we are both wise enough to proceed slowly. We both agree that divorce is most often a mistake. In her case, her X was physcially abusive. She tried to restore her marriage, but he refused to change; even after being forgiven repeatedly.

Yes, I realize and accept that my adultery caused our break-up. My actions brought consequences and as much as I would like to change the past, it is gone. I have prayed everyday that somehow my x would be able to forgive me. I have not been asking for a third, fourth, fifth or sixth chance, bút just a second chance. I was never given that second chance; to prove my Love to her as an adult man. All that happened was the result of leftover junk from my adolescence; unresolved immaturity and mistakes which just snowballed. Such a pity!

I often think that because our marriage was basically happy and so full of feeling, the betrayal caused an even greater fall. If her expectations had been low to begin with about our marriage, then the betrayal may not have been such a shock and hurt so much. She says that I had her 1000% fooled, that she could never have imagined that I would have ever considered a one night stand. It was out of the question, not her man. I was the perfect husband and she was so proud of me. When I confessed, her self-esteem was torn asunder and her only option was to run to someone. I understand it all and will forever be profoundly sorry. I HAVE REALLY BEEN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE PAIN A WOMAN FEELS UPON BEING BETRAYED!! There will always be a gaping void in my heart. No Love will ever replace our young Love, but when there is no other option but to move on, it is all I can do.


Getting There in Finland

standingin finland

i'm aware if your situation, as i have read your previous posts as well.

While reading this post, i was left feeling confused, knowing that "you" had affairs, and at one time wasn't you implying how your W abused you with scratches? IMO, you probably deserved more than scratches, so maybe you should be thankful, for only recieving scratches.

While reading your first post here, asking/concerned why xw has not introduced OM to any,,, then after you recieve replies, its as if you have/had answers all along.

My 15 year old daughter will give me info, then when i respond, she will either change her replies, or have different answers, or something. Anyhow, i see the same thing with your posts, questions and concerns. \

In my opinion, you need to forget about your xw, you recieved what you probably deserved! and get on with your life. Regards to your children, i'm left wondering, how much of their time with you is lost while you're with g/f, or even wondering about why your xw is not more involved.

19 months,or 1 1/2 years whatever it is,, is this enogh time to become healthy, and become involved with another? thats your choice! as its your xw's choice to make her decisions. Its now her life, act as though she is another mans wife and you may even advance for your ownself,,
i only hope you understand, its really none of your business, maybe you can do everybody a favor, and simply forget what x does, or does not do. Again, act as though she is another mans wife, and maybe the respect can increase, for all involved.
give your children an extra hug, remind them mom does love them, daily.

standinginfinland

i wanted to add, i have full custody of our children, my stbxw also does not call our children, she will tell me to have them call her.
Quite often, i'd offer/ask whatever extra time for w with children. after about two months of excuses, i finally stopped. It is her loss, all i can and will do is focus on my children maintaining as much healthyness as possible thru-out this whole ugly, painful divorce.

I do remind them, mommy loves you, with every bedtime prayer, and thru out their days.

I can't, and won/t ask w why she won't call. or if she will call. Yes, thats her choice, yes the children do and will suffer, but what "you" choose to say and do, can/will make a lot of difference. I placed my wants/needs, regards to w calling, spending more time with children as though it is "none" of my business, and yes it is bothersome, but there's nothing i can do.

If its ok, i'd like to ask this of you, how do you think your children "feel" about you with another lady? Are you aware of these consquences, and how it can/will affect them?
Newly said it straight forward, mind your own damn business.

and really, good luck to you,,,i do wish the best.

Stephan (and others):

No one deserves to be abused, period!! Neither woman nor man! I do not understand your comment. Does anyone here?? No, I did not deserve to be scratched. 1985-1986, the period when it was happening, was the absolute nightmare of my life which I would not wish upon anyone! Afterwards though, I was not responsible and mature enough to work through the pain. This was my tragic mistake. I let it just fester for months and months and instead found myself, time to time, cursing my wife behind her back; vowing revenge. I lost respect for her and never forgave her fully. Nor did I ever bring the pain back to the surface because I did not want to disturb our "marital bliss". And we did stay basically "very happy together" on the surface simply because I buried the issue. If I ever approached this, or most any other difficult marital topic, her most typical monologue was:

"Well, you are right, I am a very bad person so why don`t you just leave me; I have always known that you would leave me anyway, I am nothing, no man could ever possibly love me and stay faithful to me for a lifetime. You can find someone much better than me. I will end up being alone just like my mother!"

I would hear this over and over and over again anytime a difficult topic would surface in our marriage. Over time, misguidedly, I resolved to stop bringing up any diffiult topics. Any discussion of the abuse "we" allowed to happen was particularly taboo. I basically felt I could not discuss anything in our marriage critically because her reaction was always the same: "I am no good so why not just leave me!"

In summer 1989, I "acted out" with revenge in mind when visiting a Bangkok "bath house" while on my first international business trip away from Finland. This single stupid act fatally wounded our marriage already then!; 13 years before it was finally confessed! And all during those ensuing 13 years, I lived a lie in front of the person I loved. My mission became to somehow make it up to her by being super attentive, hard-working, creative, caring, and in a way, fatherly. Strangely though, and symptomatic of something deep down very wrong with me, I betrayed her again. I was sugar coated on the outside while at the same, rotten on the inside due to some strange psychological need to get even!!

As I could never eliminate the Bangkok act and the guilt, I became gripped by depression, and increasingly abused myself. I chose to take stressful jobs, to work long hours, to overeat and I betrayed her 5 additional times over the 13 year period while on foreign travel. By working hard on the outside, I tried to make her proud of me. On the inside though, I had only self-hate and kept a terrible secret known only to me. Her abuse of me had stopped, but instead I just abused myself. It makes me wonder what it is about myself that has made be vulnerable to abuse. It is as if I have wanted to be victim.

You also comment and wonder about the affect my girlfriend has upon my children. I am extremely sensitive to this of course. I also do not spend time with her at my children`s expense; only when they otherwise have activities. My children and I talk alot about this. And as I have said, I am still on the fence as whether to re-double my efforts to "win" my x-wife back, or then to just forget about her being my wife again, and accept that she is someone else`s wife. I am honest with my girlfriend about my feelings and she fully understands my dilemma. At this stage, we just enjoy each other`s company. The future is just too unpredictable.

This last weekend was tough. After not hearing from my x-wife for more than a month, she called me suddenly. We ended up having a series of discussions, none of which seemed to go anywhere. The bottom line according to my x-wife is that it is her fate to be alone for the rest of her life. She NEVER will be able to trust a man again, perod. Her trust is completely shattered and, in her opinion, no amount of counsellng will change this. She characterized the relationship with her boyfriend as having no future because in the end, he would betray her too. She repeatedly questioned how on earth I could ever stay faithful to her now that she is growing older. If I could have cheated on her at age 25, how could I possibly be faithful to her at age 45 or 55 or 65. She claims that she is just the type of woman whom men will cheat on so she has no hope to ever be in a relationship again. Her own mother was abused and abandoned at age 23 after 4 years of marriage and has never been able to trust again. My x-mother-in-law has lived alone ever since and my wife believes this is her fate as well.

I know that it is "none of my business" anymore but it does not erase the fact that I deeply care about her. I want to help her see that healing "is" possible over time with hard work. Regardless of whether she and I ever reconcile, I do hope she can heal herself enough to trust again. Of course, it is complelety up to her.

What does MB teach about someone learning to trust again? Doesn`t the ability to trust begin with one`s own self-esteem?? Are there any good reference materials out there about trusting again after betrayal? What does the bible say about trusting?

Again I am long winded, but it is windy here in Finland.


Standing in Finland

Standing,

I would like to strongly suggest that you get your exW into counseling. She clearly has problems stemming from her upbringing and they have cause her great pain. I don't know if it would mean that you would remarry, but I think her behavior is harming the children, just as her mother's has clearly harmed her.

If you ever gave that woman a gift, it would be to be out from underneath what her mother clearly planted in her. Your love would be nice, but her functioning properly would be even better and it would help your children.

Please talk with her, argue with her, conjole her, whatever but get her some help. If you do, she just might turn into a good mother again, if not a good W. You know her better than anyone, and you still love her, so act in love to help her anyway you can, even if it means losing her forever.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Yes Just Learning, I fully agree, but how???

I know it is not impossible, but there are a number of factors working against getting her into counselling.

Finnish society seems to just condone divorce. It is popularized all over the media and the average Finn`s attitude is very casual towards the subject. Finns are basically a very melancholy people and tend to accept their sad fates stoically rather than admit they have made mistakes, show their feelings or open themselves up to any embarrassment.

My x-wife`s work schedule is highly challenging as for being able to fit in any counselling appointments. She regularly has pre-dawn start times at our airport and also works a second job in the late afternoon/ early evening. She is just plain exhausted all the time; no energy to invest in exploring her feelings. Perhaps this is an avoidance strategy for her, but it has been highly effective. She is able to garner sympathy from everyone when she describes how she regulary has to get up at 2 in the morning.

Her side of the family if rife with divorce cases and there are no role models of happy marriages to look up to. Bitterness and stubborn pride is the sap which flows through her family tree. My x will "never" hear from her mother (nor from anyone in her extended family) that her marriage is worth working on because that would be constitute "giving in to a man".

Neither is her boyfriend encouraging when it comes to counselling. His attitude upon leaving his previous ten year common law relationship was that people should "wash their own dirty laundry in their own homes". This attitude is very common here in Finland. And as my x seems to have become a clone of her boyfriend, her willingness to seek counselling is blocked.

All this aside, I know that getting her into counselling would be the loving thing to do and I am going to try. Whether it could lead to our eventual reconciliation is not the point. She needs this help now; to heal herself; and her relationship with my children. What I need is for a trusted third party to "gently, but firmly push" her into regular counselling appointments. To do this though, I feel I must play a bit behind the scenes and I am uncomfortable with this. It won`t work if I suggest counselling to her myself, so therefore I need help. This is a dilemma. Would anyone have advice other than that I should mind my own business. I know that minding my own business is one option and perhaps the easiest way out, but my care for her is calling me to choose another way.

Standing in Finland

X left me for a MW the age of my oldest son. I not only felt hurt but very old and ugly and believe for a long time thats the reason X left me for a younger woman. I tried to make our M work, it takes 2. I gave up after X would not leave MOW alone, it was causing me too much stress and my health was going down. When X left he also gave up his only child. Son would not accept MOW as stepmom. Last time dad saw son was 5-02, our son wont talk or see him anymore. Im not sure why they dont wont to see their children anymore. I believe its guilt and shame. X still has not told son that he is engaged to OW or that they bought a home together. You are very lucky to have your children, worry about them not your X. She made her choice.

My Family2:

Of course, I make my children my first priority. They are with me right now and have been nearly everyday since my X moved out 10 months ago. My focus really has been on them. However, because I still care about my X, I can`t shake the feeling of wanting to help her. I call this True Love. Some are saying though that I just can`t let go of her and that I still want to control her. I have thought a lot about this and whether it is true. I conclude that no, I have accepted her decision and truly wish her happiness on her own or with whomever she chooses. I just think it would be better for the children if they could have a strong relationship also with their mother.

Frankly, I think my X would benefit a great deal by particicipating in this site. Unfortunately, she has not yet embraced the on-line world. Maybe someday.

Are there any others out there whose X needs help, but find that she/he blocks all attempts of assistance. Is anyone out there whose X just cannot trust again?

Standing in Finland

I think we all believe our X's need help - just as we need/needed help to get through this trauma.
But through MB and other places, I've learned I cannot change another person, I can only change myself and my attitude toward people.
My X portrays himself as this great father - but was never around. He has to believe that or he'd be a failure.
Stop focusing on her and be the best parent and best person you can be. You can help your children by getting them counseling, so they know her absence in their lives is not their fault.
Good Luck.

[QUOTE] Are there any others out there whose X needs help, but find that she/he blocks all attempts of assistance. Is anyone out there whose X just cannot trust again? [QUOTE]

I believe my ex needs help, but again, that's just my opinion. In his mind he feels that everything is alright and I'm the one that needs help. I have long since realized that he just has different values and beliefs than mine. It doesn't mean that his beliefs are wrong or that mine are wrong, it means that we both have different beliefs.

My ex was the one that suggested counselling when I had enough after 20 years of marriage. He was abusivie and finally drew the last straw after raping me. Sooooooooooo...to make a long story short, I still love the man. After all these years, all the abuse, I still love him, but I love him enough to realize that he's not going to change. I had to bail because of my own health and because of my children. What kind of mother would I be if I continued to let him yell and scream at me and punch more holes in the walls while the children looked on?

K...now with counselling -- I told him I would gladly go. Being the controlling person he was, I insisted if he was so inclined to seek counselling that he should find someone that he felt comfortable with. We went -- the first time the counsellor said something that he didn't want to hear he told her she was a "fu***** b***** and walked out of her office never to return. I remained and continued counselling. I learned that I was terrified of leaving this relationship, that I was scared that I would die without him.(1998)

Flash forward to now -- I have a terrific job. The kids are doing well, with the exception of our son. Our son, who is living with his father, is a duplicate of his father, abusive behaviour and all. So with him, I also have to deal with the *loving him* but working on the abusive behaviour when he is with me. Something you have to consider when you encourage your children to love the *other* parent. Our other two, who are away from daddy dearest are doing fabulous.

So...your question -- . Is anyone out there whose X just cannot trust again? I've had years to ponder this, years to hope and pray that the ex will *change* and work towards reconciliation. He has continued whatever abusive behaviour he can get away with. He is dishonest, manipulative and cruel to the children and whomever else will accept his behavour. What I have discovered is that he will NEVER change and that our relationship is finished forever. Can I trust him? NEVER.

As for trusting another human (be it male or female) -- I have learned what is acceptable in my life and what is not. I have a long list of things I will NOT accept in my life, and I'm OK with that. If that means being single for the rest of my life -- so be it. I am a good example for my children, and I continue to be the best mother I can be to them. I can't FORCE the ex to be a good father. That's his choice.

So...enough rambling. Work on YOU. Work on being the best damn father you can be. Concentrate your efforts on how YOU can work towards being the best person that GOD meant you to be. Focus on those kids of yours and let go of the ex. Loving someone doesn't mean having a strangle hold on them, loving someone means having the courage to let go and to trust God in His wisdom.