Ok I have been putting off throwing this out here all week - but here goes - I figure I can use any advice that I can get... OK so last weekend my ex has the kids for the entire weekend - it is the second time he has done that in 1 year and 8 months - my 13 year old daughter does not like her father at all - and my 10 year old is ok with him.. But I decided after 1 year and 8 months it was time he started chipping in with them.. OK so he brings them to me at my sisters on Sunday at like 3 - he had taken them to the movies and shopping to have them show him what they wanted for Christmas. My oldest says Mom I don't want to go with him for the weekend anymore - I just sort of shrugged it off. Anyways later that night I talked to their Dad on the phone and it somewhat turned ugly when I told him that the oldest didn't want to go with him anymore (keep in mind he thinks that he is wonderful - blah blah blah ) - and he calls back and gives her a bunch of crap and asks to speak to me - and tells me he is coming over for a family meeting... at 9:00pm mind you.
So I tell the girls he is coming over. So now once he gets there - I think he has been drinking - Now keep in mind he has been lying to all of us for 2 years plus and though the girls are young they are not stupid. He admits that he is seeing the OW - the lady who lives next door to us - they just started dating which is a load of crap but anyways - whatever... And that the kids feelings come first - ya ok ... He proceeds to swear at all three of us - telling them that he hates me pretty much - that I am a total B*tch - that he is done with me - we are divorced - No kidding I say??? Well the girls try to talk to him about some of his lies - ??? And he fights with them swearing at them - telling them that they are lying - not pretty - so he looks at my oldest daughter and tells her go ahead tell me to [censored] off I know you want - and if you do I will throw you through the wall - Nice huh - then he calls her a lying little b*tch - ok at this point I kick him out of the house - now mind you alot more has been said - but the end result was - that he thinks he is wonderful - he screamed at the girls for not calling him - and him always having to be the one to call him - OK he is the adult - and he took my oldest daughters Christmas List crumpled it up and told her that he has washed his hands of her - and stormed out of the house slamming the door and peeling out of the driveway... So I was immediately on damage control - I told my oldest daughter that in no uncertain terms he was wrong - and he should have never treated her like that - and that not to worry she could get mad at me all she wanted to and I would never wash my hands of her.
I also told my youngest that her father was wrong to treat her sister like that - he was harsh with her also but not 1/2 as bad. And that he would probably try to spoil her more to get to her sister. So now here we are on Friday - that was last Sunday - he has not called once - even though he left my youngest daughter in tears... They haven't called him - I am really not sure what to expect next... I mean obviously he thinks that he was within his right and he has done no wrong - but as far as I am concerned - that whole episode is the stuff that screws up little girls for the rest of their lives - and I pretty much think they are better off not talking to him...
My oldest is done with him she says - and frankly I cannot blame her and I will never make her go with him again. But what do I do - if the youngest calls him and he tears into her because she hasn't called him all week??? I just don't know what direction to steer her in... I myself am pretty much done talking to him - I will never forgive him for treating our child like that - especially because she didn't really deserve it - so she doesn't like him so what - he did leave her family, for the lady next door - lie to her - make her life miserable for the last two years-- he should have to suck it up - and go out of his to make it up to them - Am I wrong thinking that?? Or should they being going out of their way trying to include him in their life??? I just don't know what to do???

maw64
Its a shame for anyone to be treated like that, especialy children. I would think that all of you would be better off with no contact with him at all. Perhaps a legal means of providing this would be in order.
It would be awfull for your children to grow up without a father but worse to grow up with a potentialy abussive one(verbally,emotionaly or physically).
If you feel that it was alchohol induced, you should insist on him getting help for his drinking before being allowed to see the kids again.

Let me get this straight...

*you decided after a year and 8 months that it was time for your daughters to see their father?

*it didn't go well - the children don't want to see him.

*it wasn't the kids decision to see him in the first place.

*he doesn't have anything to do with them, screams, cusses at them, and berates them for their feelings.

*NOW you wonder if they should be going out of their way to include this racid piece of flesh in their lives?

~~~~~

Are you insane? WHY would you force your children to participate in life with this man who obviously doesn't want them?

Give it up - it may be his responsibility - but yours as a mother is to protect them. They have no need to put up with that kind of abuse and rejection - it will HURT them far more than not seeing him.

REALITY CHECK PLEASE!!! PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN.

Jan

WishIwerehome - thank you for your reply - the sad thing is that he thinks that he is justified in his thinking - that he is angry because the girls don't call him - etc... He doesn't seem to understand that they are kids and that he is the adult and that he should be the one to call him. He thinks they only call if they want something - well hello - that is how kids are - you know??? I have told my youngest that if he ever picks her up and he has been drinking then she is not to go with him and she is to call me right away and I will pick her up or whatever - under no circumstances is she to go with him ... And it is hard to make him understand that he may have caused serious damage to her because he thinks in his mind that she hurts him all of the time by not liking him... I just don't know what to do - I mean my youngest wants to go with him - but I am afraid that sooner or later he is gonna pull the same crap with her.. He told my oldest he would take her to court when she was 14 and she could tell the judge that she didn't want to go with him and then that would be fine because he wouldn't have to pay child support for her anymore...

Jan - ok sorry if I didn't make this clear - he does see the kids - he was seeing them on Friday nights overnite - but it was really to much of a pain for the kids they would go there and sleep and pretty much come home at 12 on Saturday - so I thought if they went there every other weekend they could establish a better relationship with him and actually spend sometime with him... And he thinks that he is wonderful because he pays his child support and he calls them once a week... My oldest daughter has never been secretive about her feelings towards him and he thinks that it is all about his feelings being hurt by her - not about why she has these feelings. My youngest daughter does want to see him but I am afraid that he is gonna turn on her and give her crap . That is what I am afraid of - is it up to me - to sever her relationship with him because I am afraid that he is gonna basically turn on her the way he turned on her sister when she gets a little older and wants to be with her friends and not him...??? And as for me needing a reality check - ok maybe I do - because I really don't know what is better - keep them away from him - at all costs - or let them try to work through it... As for my oldest daughter as far as he is concerned he has washed his hands of her because I wouldn't let him near her at all - But the youngest I am tied as to what to do???

maw64
It looks like you may have posted the same time as sj *trouble*
A little mor blunt than myself, but the same idea

Your X at some points is very similar to mine, and these problems you have now I'm sure I'll have in near future...

Do you have joint custody?

Do whatever you can to protect your kids while they are with him!
Don't initiate their meetings with X, and don't forbide either.
The oldest one is fine, she knows already what she wants; just protect her somehow of feelings of rejection (you already do that and that's good!)
The youngest one... you'll have to wait until she's ready for decision...
In any ways, unless time with X is harmful and dangerous for kids, I prefere them (kids) to (KIND OF) respect their fathers...
not because X deserves, but because of a healthier mental growth of kids...

I like what you are doing.
Don't forget to protect yourself as well (e.g. talk to him via Email, and just about kids... that way, you can always use it in the court if needed and, moreover, avoid face to face confrontings...

Belonging to Nowhere - Yes we have joint custody - with me being the custodial parent - and our divorce agreement states that the children shall visit the father and vacation with the father as both parents have the childrens best interest in mind. OK so I also tell my girls all of the time -he is your father and you should see him and you should love him - but when he turns around and acts like a 10 year old screaming at my daughter - because he isnt being treated the way he thinks that he should be as their father. As for me I try not to talk to him at all. The girls know that it is pretty much up to the three of them to communicate and to try and keep me out of it. But in his mind he has done no wrong and deserves to be happy and that attitude comes flying out when dealing with the kids when they are not 100% agreeable to him. My oldest pretty much has been butting heads with him all along and this isn't the first argument but it is the first that I have witnessed - and believe me it will be the last that they have. He totally feels that he is 100% correct and that I don't discipline them and that I let them get away with murder etc. When I simply state it is my house when they are with me I make the rules - your opinions are not needed. I have had discussions with my youngest about if he has been drinking and picks her up - because for example on Hallloween he picked her up -honked the horn in the driveway - then took her to my sisters house and back to my house and he brought my bil with him and my bil - said that he was totally wasted - and definately should not have been driving yet he picked her up... I am not sure how to even approach that subject with him - about him drinking and picking up the girls - because he will just lie and say that it isn't true - he lies all of the time...

Okay ---

My response may have been a bit brash --- so I'll tone it down a bit...

Your H is "OUT THERE" if he thinks the children should be responsible for the relationship with him. I would NOT as their mother EVER make it THEIR responsibility to contact him or create a relationship with a man who has this narrow vision of life. His vision will not ever expand to include them - and he will continue to hurt them.

IF he's 'out of her life' I'd provide a secondary male role model for her - a youth leader at church, or someone where she can have a safe and secure leader with others around. She needs to see that men are not all like her father - and she needs an opportunity to interact with men who are caring and loving - rather than mean and abusive.

Blessings,

Jan

Jan - I don't think that you were brash - you were just looking at the situation - I mean I have got to tell you - I have been banging my head against the wall for a long time - I think am I doing them a disservice by not encouraging this relationship and really trying to make it happen - Though I know full well that it is not up to me to do that it is up to him as the adult and it really has nothing to do with me. I think that though he used to be a great guy and responsible - he is not now - he is living in his own little selfish existance - but then I think ok am I just being bitter... I mean I know that he hurt me - and now I know for sure that he has hurt my older daughter - but will he hurt my younger one also - maybe - maybe not??? I am not sure... He totally thinks that I have turned the girls against him when in fact I have done just the opposite - he has changed their opinions of him by his lying - by his hiding everything from them - like I said they may be kids but they are not stupid.. My children have male role models in their lives - my brother in law is wonderful to them - I just don't know if I will ever be able to have my ex understand that what he did - and how he continues to act is what is causing the rift between him and the children - not by anything that I have done...

The same custody we (are going to) have...

(Btw, my (X)H was mad at our son because he didn't smile at him once... and he was 5 months old...)

I insist on a clause - no drinking during weekends with our son. Do you have something like that?
If not, can you take the issue to the mediation or even the court, to prove that he doesn't behave in best children interest and he'd be forced to change that?

We are more sensitive than married moms... for if we were still living with them they would still yell at our kids and have different styles of raising the children, just it won't be so obvious as now when we still cope with our own hurt... (you know what I mean?)

You do things I plan to do (encourage their relationship), but - as far as it isn't hramful to kids. Nothing wrong with that.
And, yes, kids are small but not stupid - they see everything, him and you too... and they will one day deeply appreciate you never spoke lies or bad things about their father...

Belonging - you know I am no saint and I am sure that I have said bad things about their Dad and they have heard but not directly to them - I also tell them regardless of what he did to me - he didn't do it to them - and that I will always love him on some level... And that he just really hurt me very deeply but I will be ok... And I think that they know that. And as for the drinking thing I guess I will have to see if it happens again - I mean he will say well you drink - ok yes when I go out or something and I would never under no circumstances ever drive when I had had a drink - especially with the girls... But again - every thing I do or say is to hurt him supposedly or like he says make him look like the bad guy... So I guess like someone said my oldest has made her decision - I just have to let her know that it was and is her decision to make and I support her - and my youngest will have to make that decision on her own also... I tjust hope that all that he has done has and will be worth everything that he has lost in the long run...

Of course you are no saint (and nobody is); you cannot hide your feelings all the time and maybe it isn't bad to show to kids that we can be hurt as well, moreover that's a part of life, their life as well...
(When my son (2) falls down I say to him - it's ok as far as you know how to get up... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

You defined that part I was trying to say:
"I also tell them regardless of what he did to me - he didn't do it to them"...
e.i. not to turn kids AGAINST their father - that what I meant... and you do just fine your part of parenthood...

If there is at least a little irony/sarcasm (or "I already know it is not") in this sentence of yours "I just hope that all that he has done has and will be worth everything that he has lost in the long run..."... than not only our Xs are similar but you and I as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

With best wishes!

<small>[ December 05, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

Belonging
I think that all of ex betrayed spouses have that little hope that what goes around comes around - I wouldn't wish what I have gone through on my worst enemy - though I hope that he and his OW each experience some of the pain that I have - I hope things go well with you also....

(((((((((Maw64)))))))))

First off how lucky your daughters are to have you as their mother. You have their best interest at hand because everyone says that they should have a relationship with their father! So you encourage it and push them along because you don't want them to grow up without their daddy. You did all the right things and he is ruining all your efforts.

GUILT will do that! He knows he is wrong by all his actions in the past. What he is doing is trying to justify why the girls don't like him. Who is the child? It's easier to have them hate him because it's too hard to see the hurt he has caused in their eyes.

Do you undersatnd what I am saying? He knows he did wrong and it's probably why he drinks, it numbs the pain. He can just look at your older daughter and see how much she hates him. So in his juvenile ways he turns it around on everyone else "It's not his fault". It's yours and your older daughter and the dog and so on. Sooner or later it could be your younger daughter if she doesn't act the way he things she should. Sad!!

What can you do? Knowing how you are with them you will be positive and always allow them to care for their father. Because that it the right thing to do! Let them know that they can have boundaries also. After what your younger daughter witnessed she will be to afraid to rock the boat. What damage has he done? You'll never know but just hug and love as much as possible.

We always will second guess what we do but you seem to have a great grib on the situation. How sad we have to deal with all this sh*t because of their selfishness.

Take care of you.
LJ

MAW,
I think you are correct to handle it by letting the kids make their own decision in this matter. Your x is also mistaken if he thinks he won't be responsible for CS just because your d doesn't want to see him, he is still legally responsible till they are 18.

My s just said the other day he felt bad because he hadn't talked to his mother in a week, that he hadn't called her. I reminded him that she hadn't called him either. I don't know if that was the best answer, but I didn' think he should feel guilty about not calling. I suppose feeling unwanted is worse though.

Hey M.A.W.!
Wow, I'm so sorry that this is happening to you! He sounds mental to me, and this abuse of the children (which it is), I will never understand. I guess it must be the guilt he feels from what he KNOWS he's done to your family. I wish I had better advice for you, but I think you're doing great. You are right to allow your husband access to the kids, and encourage the kids to have a relationship with him. But I strongly feel it is his responsibility to initiate and maintain the relationship. My X has called his kids about 3 times since January, and has seen them twice. He did actually take my son for two days, but the girls didn't want to go. I don't speak badly about him in front of the kids, and I do tell them that they are free to call or email their dad anytime they want. But, they don't, mainly because they don't feel in touch with him anymore. Also, they feel abandoned by him. Why would they want to initiate contact with him when they feel he doesn't care.
So, that's where I am. (Along with NO CS since Jan.) It all stinks, it stinks that your X talked to your daughter that way. Nothing fair about it, but I guess we pick ourselves up and keep going. Your girls are lucky to have someone as strong as you. Keep your chin up. We're going to make it.
KK

lj1122- thank you - sorry it took me so long to get back - but this has been a blizzard weekend - oh about 20+ inches of snow - uggg... But thank you - I hope I am doing the right thing.. And I have been thinking about the guilt thing - and I think that could be pretty much most of the problem because - he has to justify his relationship with the lady next door in his mind and what better way to do it - than to say - well I might as well be with her - and her kids my kids want nothing to do with me - Thanks to their mother of course... My youngest still hasn't called him - but yesterday I tried to tell her that you haven't spoken to him in a week - and he might not be very nice and she seemed ok with that but she hasn't called yet....

RWD - I know that child support thing he is dreaming about - because you know what I actually called my lawyer last year when he pulled that about not having to pay for the girls if he doesn't see them - and in fact it is quite the opposite - she told me that I could actually get more money because he has 50/50 joint custody and is not spending time with them... I truly know that my oldest daughter right now is done with him and you know that is ok - really - because I think that she is a good kid and when she is ready she will be the one to make the first move - and if she doesn't than it will be his loss... The poor kid has done nothing - except maybe not been all that nice to him - and at 13 really who are they nice to anyways... They are good kids - and maybe someday he will grow up and realize that he is the adult - not them...

KK2002 - Wow I still cannot believe that your ex does not pay child support - you have got to get to court and get that order - and make it attached to his pay... There is absolutely no reason that he should not pay child support.. I was reading your thread about finding happiness after all of this - and god I hope that is true... I hope what people say that you are eventually happy will happen.. It is very hard though hoping that you are raising your children correctly - I have tried to explain to the both of them - that your Dad was and is wrong - he is not acting like that adult and that neither one of you have done one wrong thing - ... It is hard - somedays I think they care and others I don't think they do one way or the other... So we will see what happens - I guess - I can only be there for them....

MAW,
I have no good advice for you. Wish I did. This whole situation just sucks. Can you take you and your daughters to a therapist right away? These poor girls are sure to be very messed up in regard to men if they don't get some help. I don't want to make you more afraid than you already are, but knowledge is power. It's important that you get a clear head about this so you can take care of them and their best interest. I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Maw64,
Where do you live? I'm in Massachusetts and had to deal with 20 plus inches of snow. I live in the South Shore area, poor son had to do a lot of shoveling. We both did shifts, my arms are so sore this morning.

Stbxh showed up at the house in the morning Sunday and said don't shovel I'll come back and do it. Well, it was 3:30 and he didn't show so we had to go out and do it. I was pissed and son said why do you believe anything he says! Old enough to see things the way they are, how sad that he is really ruining his sons trust in him.

I made the best of a awfull situation and had a snowball fight with son we ended up having alot of laughs. Stbxh showed up at 5:00 and said I drove all the way here and everything is done, why didn't you call and tell me. Son said Dad that was the morning did you think we were going to wait till dark to start shoveling. Stbxh just drove off like we did something wrong.

We still had plenty to do but he obviously had no intention in helping us. What a jerk! Whatever, but it really opened my eyes to see that I really can't depend on him any more. He just helps me detach myself from him even more which is what I need to do any ways. My son has to do all the things his father use to do, that makes me sad sometimes but.....

Stay warm!!

LJ