Hi all. It's been a frustrating couple of months with my son -- who will be 18 in a bit, and is living with the abusive ex. When the ex and I were done with, he continued to break into the house and sabotage my car. We lived in a small community, of which the ex was *buddies* with the local police enforcement. Any time the ex was yelling outside the door and pounding on the door, (even though I had a restraining order) I would call the police to which they would NOT respond. I had NO choice but to move from that city to the city where I am now, where the ex is NOT buddies with the police. I have had relative peace since then.

Upon moving to the city, the ex court ordered me to drive the kids to the school where they were the prior year. (I moved in Aug, and school would have been a new school). He succeeded in getting me to do so, so for 6 months I drove 200 miles a day getting them back and forth to school -- until I found a lawyer who actually fought for the kids and allowed them to go to school in this city. The younger one loved her new school and the older one was scared to even try a new school and was swayed with the "you can have money, I'll buy you a car, you don't have to leave your friends...blah blah blah" and told me that he wanted to live with his father. I was terrified, but through counselling, was advised to let him go. He was 14 at the time.

So flash forward to now. He's almost 18, and is insisting that his father let him drop him off in front of MY house. (No he never got the promised car, nor does he even have a licence, nor does he even have a part-time job...just empty promises). Last time he was here, I picked him up at the agreed pick up point specified in our court order, and then my son wanted his father to pick him up at our house, invited him here and the ex actually had the balls to tell me he was going to come to my home (specified in the court order he is to stay away 200 yards from residence, away from my work also). I called the police and the police reminded ex that it was NOT going to happen. Since that date, I have not seen my son (since August). He decided that he wanted to see me again this weekend as we are decorating the house for Christmas. Upon calling me and telling me his father was dropping him off in front of my house, I told him NO, and that I would meet him at the pick up point. The ex gets on the phone and tells me that the son is almost 18 (like THE SON IS THE PROBLEM) -- I told him NO that I could even drive out to the town and pick up the son so that he would not be inconvenienced. The ex didn't like that, and basically both decided there would be NO visit.

Help..... I just need some understanding as to how to handle this situation. I want to see my son, but it seems whatever I suggest, he runs it through his father and pretty much doesn't take to heart ANY suggestion I have. It's either his FATHER's idea, or NOTHING at all.

bumping up ---- I'd really like to hear some wisdom from you all here. (man...I'm beginning to hate Christmas...)

A letter from my son (who lives with the ex) ----> I assume as a result of Support Enforcement clamping down on the ex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
u know u really know how to piss people off, well, u pissed me off, i am not coming there for christmas nore will i be visiting you anymore,

i am almost 18, and u know what, **** you!

u can phone all the judges, lawyers and people u want, having them deal with YOUR problems is not going to solve anything,

again, **** you,

did u know u can fax anything from copy houses? wonderful things are they not, or the fact that NO ONE, and i repeat NO ONE, can access court information except yourself and Mr. (Ex) himself, Your very ignorant towards people u know that. I do talk to the courts, gather information about legal systems. the fact is, there are no pictures, there is only a father who was willing to help, support and love his children through what ever means he could.

oh ya, you share what supposivly goes on between you and you cruel, ex husband who doesnt support you and beats you cheats.

right now you are either laughing, crying, calling your lawyer, gaurenteed to call good old Ex husband to complain on how he brought his son up to do these horrible things. If you have not noticed yeti am almost 18. thats legal age to go party, get drunk, see some naked ladies, and oh no, look at those horrible court documents. Hope they dont "dissapear" before i get a chance to go see them.

Have a Merry Christmas.

And a Happy New Year!.

Dont u just love venting your anger on someone?

(Son's full name)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

((Elan))
I know you realize this - that most teenage boys go through all kinds of stages trying to “find themselves”. When you add bitter divorce, coupled with the abuse that made you have to move, it just adds more fuel to their own fires.

First of all, don’t take any of what he’s saying personally. I know it’s difficult not to, but honestly, it’s not really about you. I guarantee at some point in the future an opportunity will come and you can talk to him like two human beings. At that point you can explain your side of things and hopefully he will be mature enough to realize truth when he sees it.

In the meantime, is there a way you can interact with him without going through your ex? Meet him somewhere else? I agree, it appears he is running everything through EXH which may be what EXH wants him to do (controlling nature does this). To be honest, it sounds like he’s taken on some of the obvious trash that has been fed him through his dad and it will be really difficult to counteract that. Don’t get discouraged if you can’t convince him to do what you want about visiting for the holidays. Stick by your guns, but use every opportunity to let him know you love him and also want him to be with you on YOUR terms. Does he interact with your other child any? If so, does his anger come out then also?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...and oh no, look at those horrible court documents. Hope they dont "dissapear" before i get a chance to go see them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought things like this are only for the parties involved (you and ex). What do you think he’s talking about?

I had to do a "Tough Love" thing with my son at the same time my H left me - so essentially I was in Plan B for both relationships. It's difficult but gave me an opportunity for things to cool off with son for a couple of years. Things aren't perfect, but we've come a long way and are getting along very well now.

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

Avondale...thanks for your response. I was feeling a little lost this morning. I'll try and shed some light on what you asked.

Before I had a chance to think, I did take it personally....but now I realize that he's angry, and one day, when he is away from the ex, he will become human again. We have an older daughter that didn't speak to me for 2 years -- now she is a great friend and speaks to me daily. Something I thought NEVER would happen.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the meantime, is there a way you can interact with him without going through your ex? Meet him somewhere else? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I call the house to speak to our son and the answering machine is on all the time. NOTHING gets by the ex. No lunches, no coffee, nothing. He is totally in control of our son's schedule. our son doesn't drive. They live in a small community and there is NO transportation. I do email on a regular basis to keep in touch. I do have a journal where I mark down the phone calls as our son does not believe I call. When I ask if he got my message, he responds, "what message?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To be honest, it sounds like he&#8217;s taken on some of the obvious trash that has been fed him through his dad and it will be really difficult to counteract that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize that anything I say will be pointless. He's not ready to listen, nor is he wanting to hear the other side. He's in a place (his father's) where he is paid for affection. He is rewarded by NOT communicating with me. It's easier for him to totally alienate himself from me because it makes it easier to deal with his father. Christmas is the BEST example of that. I haven't had my kids for Christmas in four years, even though the ex has *promised* that I would get my turn. It doesn't happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does he interact with your other child any? If so, does his anger come out then also?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His sisters say that he is angry and mean. They don't like spending time with him.

The court documents: here, anyone of the age of 18 can look at the documents. I have not *explained* any of the abuse or things that the ex has done while we were married. I didn't think it was my place. I insisted that the children go for counselling -- the ex of course insisted there was nothing *wrong* with the kids, therefore the kids did not have to seek counselling. The courts actually ordered counselling for the kids, and when our son moved in with the ex, counselling stopped immediately. The ex was also ordered anger management (which he didn't complete) and also is restrained from me (which he doesn't comply with). Our son believes that since he is 18 shortly, his father should be allowed to come to MY HOME to pick him up. The ex continues to tell our son that I am the paranoid one and that I have no rights to have him restrained -- nor the right to have a neutral pick up point when our son does decide to visit (although the courts believe it is valid). I think that the ex really hates the fact that he doesn't have freedom to come to my home and is using our son to hurt me because of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had to do a "Tough Love" thing with my son at the same time my H left me - so essentially I was in Plan B for both relationships. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was your son living with your ex? How did you do Plan B with both? What was the turning point? How did you handle holidays and communication? How old is your son now?

Thanks for your response Avondale...I'm just feeling a little lost. The last time I saw my son was in August....he invited his father over to pick him up because he wasn't getting his own way with the television remote. He and his sister were fighting over what channel to watch. Both came to me to pick their side and I told both of them to work it out. Son got up and called his father to come and pick him up and I told him that NO, his father was NOT allowed to come and that I would drive him to the pick up point when I was able to (I had a girlfriend over for dinner with her daughter...we just sat down to eat). He said forget it. I called the police. The police talked to the ex (who had called and said he didn't care what the court orders said). The son had to walk blocks away from my house for Dad Dearest to pick him up. That was the last time I saw my son.

Elan
I'll be glad to give personal details about relating to my son if you want to e-mail me at <deleted to protect lil ol' me>.

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

Elan - yes your son is very angry. The split up of the family unit, and an ex that demeans the other ex is not emotionally well for the child or young adult or teenager.

My kids are going through a hard time, and their father has done some pretty stupid things. And the latest was to use the kids for us to respond through. I told my oldest that I wouldn't, and that is that.

But getting to the problem of the 18 year old. Yes, they only want to listen to the one parent. As they see it, there is more offered to them of the one parent. I have the same scenario here. Dad can take the kids out to the movies, and dinner. I am not able to. For no childsupport and alimony, because of my ex's procrastination. He doesn't feel anything about my not having money to do anything, and I am not able to pay the bills.

The kids will realize when they get older that the love is out of the heart. I love my kids, and feel they love me. I am not out to show them the world, not out to show them what I can do for them. I provide them with a home, and utilities, and washer/dryer, some food. And a home with the animals, all my kids love animals. That is what I have, and that is what God is allowing me to show at this time.

Good luck Elan.

Thank you ladies for your words of wisdom. I have been reading a lot of information on the Emotional Forum about Narcissism -- what an eyeopener! I did good today though. I didn't get sucked in -- though I almost did and thought I should post before I sent back an e-mail defending everything my son was accusing me of. *sigh*....I'm just tired is all. Thanks for letting me vent. I'll keep you all posted, and if there are any more words of wisdom from the board, I would surely appreciate it. Maybe hearing from some of the men, and where this young man might be coming from, might shed some more light on the situation.

Again...my humble thanks! {{hugs}}

Elan,

My kids aren't 18, but my son does have anger he's dealing with--and he's only 9--there are days when he wants to go live with his dad--and then after a weekend visit--he's ready to come home--

Have you ever asked your son if he wished he could have changed his mind and come to live with you? Maybe he didn't feel he had a choice, or his father told him you didn't fight hard enough for him--so he felt unwelcome--

Validate your son's feelings of frustration about having to have his dad stay away from your home--
and sorry that he hasn't had a chance to get a car so that he can come on his own without having to meet somewhere in the middle-but because of circumstances as they are--you prefer his father not coming to our home--(say our home so that he knows it is also his home--even though he chose to live with his father)

And when you respond to his comments about when he turns 18 and can legally get his hands on those court documents--

Is the truth in the documents? If so, then tell him, maybe that would be a good idea--and just know if you wish to discuss anything with me about what you find in there after that time--please feel free to call me--

Don't be afraid of the truth--even if any of it might make you look bad--be honest with him about it--

By his reading the court documents on his own--it might open his eyes to the truth--yes, it will be painful--but the truth wil set you all free from the anger and hostility---maybe not right away--
but eventually--

Tell your son your sorry he feels the need to turn to drinking and such--as drinking has never solved any problems--but will only cause more--

Let him know you love him--and that your sorry things have been so difficult for him--and you wish things could have been different...

And if he still refuses to come visit you for Christmas because his dad can't come to your house--

Tell him something like--

"Honey, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is how I need it to be"

I'd really love for you to come and visit and be able to spend time with you, but if you feel that you can't come because your dad can't drop you off at the door, then that is your choice--and I will try and understand."

Just know I love and miss you very much--and if you decide to change your mind, your welcome to come anytime--

Love,

Mom--

Elan,

it's only me again--but I wanted to discuss this as a seperate issue--

Thanks for letting me vent.

TR- NP

-- Maybe hearing from some of the men, and where this young man might be coming from, might shed some more light on the situation.--

TR--I'm not a man but I do understand a son needs a male influence in his life--but at the same time
he needs his mothers influence to learn how to have relationships with women--

As I said in the previous post, my son is 9, and has anger issues--he's just now getting to where he is opening up more about his feelings--

When he comes back from his fathers--he's REALLY ANGRY!! And takes it out on everyone else--I have to ask him who or what he is angry at/about--

and explain that just because he's hurting inside it doesn't give him the right to lash out at everyone else--but we are here to listen to him share why he is hurting--and what he is hurting about--but his lashing out is unacceptable--

it's taken a couple years but he's just now ready to open up and share his hurt--and he's less angry
and not lashing out as much--

Sometimes--he's just wanting attention--he was sick last week, so I kept him home from school--
and he opened up more to me that day--about how much it hurts him that when he visits his dad--
he's ignored--he said his drinking is just like his job--it takes him away from his family--and he doesn't understand how he can choose to make that choice--(it makes my son feel unloved and unwanted by his dad)

I shared with him--I know how much that hurts him-
because I struggle with the same things--and I don't understand it either--and wish I did--

I said--I know how wonderful you kids are--and I can't stand being away from you for long periods of time--and when you kids go to your fathers for a weekend or week long visit--I know how much you want to go--because I know how much you love and miss your dad and want to see and spend time with him--so I want you to go--not because I don't love you--but because I do--I love you enough to want you to have that opportunity as well--

It just seems like your son wants to see you on his time table not every one elses, and angry at his dad--for not keeping his promises to him--and because he knows you love him unconditionally--he can take it out on you--and yes, it will hurt you
but your emotionally stronger and can handle it--
and will still love him--he's not so sure about that with his father--if dad is angry he withholds his love--by not buying him things--
and emotionally black mailing him--making him feel bad for your wanting to see him on your conditions--and not his dad's--your sticking to your boundaries--and his dad takes it out on him--
so he takes it out on you--

does this help??

Hi Elan! I am sorry to read of this, but YOUR post struck a chord with me. I also have 2 VERY VERY brainwashed sons who lived with my emotional manipulative lying EX-Wife. One joined the Marines and he has halfway returned to some semblance of 'normal' although not that far. The other still refuses to have anything to do with me. They also wrote me hateful letters, wanted their stepfather to adopt them (he did) and blah blah blah yeah what-ever.
It's now 5 years later. I still have no contact with the youngest one (he's 18 this year) and the oldest one occasionally calls me, I went to see him at his Duty station last year.
Christmas, Birthdays & other holidays with them? NOT. I never once had a single negative thing to say to them about their Mother. Only God knows what kind of BS she's told them about me; from a few of their emails from way back when, it's not pretty...
My advice to you is to "just let them go" and wait for the REAL WORLD to kick in after they get out on their own and they will realize how STOOPIT their live-in parent really was...
Only my suggestion from my sitch, which is similar to yours.
Hope this helps.
Reality WILL eventually set in for them - just give it some time. Your ex can't fool them forever. Lies are always brought to light and then they make the liar even more stoopit than they originally were.
Harold
The other postings on this thread were excellent. I only wish I had known about MB when I was in Divorce Recovery...
May the Lord bless all y'all!

<small>[ December 08, 2003, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: MaXX (In The Dark Of The Night) ]</small>

Wow...... my heart goes out to all of you! In a way I am thrilled that I am not the ONLY one with kids acting this way (you know what I mean?) and on the other hand I feel like I've just been broken again even thinking that there are MORE kids out there that have been or are in the process of being destroyed by sick parents.

Thorned Rose....excellent ideas, thank you. I have written him and did tell him he's welcome to come any time, stated my need to keep myself safe (and also acknowledged that his father was different with him and that I was extremely happy they were developing a relationship). As for the court documents...the truth IS in there. I have a feeling that dad has totally brainwashed him into thinking he can't access them. Of course he would do that because the ex is afraid of the truth. So here is this kid, dad is saying no you can't access the documents, mom is saying yes you can, and this kid is pretty terrified at what he's going to find. I suspect his reasons for going to live with dad were to keep the peace and keep the heat off of me. After all, he knows that I will love him unconditionally -- whereas if he turns his back on his father -- he will NEVER have a relationship with his father.

MaXX... I too feel badly for your kids. It angers me that people do this to their children to *win*. Your ex and mine sound like the only way to hurt us for not having a relationship with them is through the children. Our oldest is 20. Living away from the ex and she IS turning into a lovely young lady. She is FINALLY seeing the light. She calls in frustration over what things her father has done or said. I have a VERY hard time biting my tongue, but do empathize with her. All I can do with my son is keep communicating with him. Unfortunately, my ex went through the same thing as his own father was abusive to his mother...his own father alienated the ex and his brothers from their own mother. The pattern repeats iteself. Unfortunately, the pattern is repeating itself with my son. Damned if I'll walk out of his life.... he'll have to kill me first. MaXX you give me hope that once they leave the ex's...they do turn into *normal* human beings.

Elan,
Hugs to you dear. Forgive me as I don't know your story beyond what you put in this post. From what you've written here, the first thing that comes to mind is why are you still fighting with your X after 4 years? This is so VERY, VERY bad for your children to continue to fight with your XH. What has he done in recent times to you for you to not make it easier for your son to be dropped at your house? I'm sorry, but I don't understand. Why can't you, for the good of your son, allow him to be dropped in front of your house? Would harm come to you from that? It seems that your son has a real problem with you continuing this fight by not allowing him to be dropped by. Try and look at it from his point of view okay?

If you X has done something to you in recent times, I take back everything I have said. It would be very understandable for you to still be limiting drop offs under those circumstances. Otherwise, you might want to rethink your hardline stance and change the holidays around for you and for your son to enjoy together.

((((HUGS)))))

Elan,


--Wow...... my heart goes out to all of you! In a way I am thrilled that I am not the ONLY one with kids acting this way (you know what I mean?) and on the other hand I feel like I've just been broken again even thinking that there are MORE kids out there that have been or are in the process of being destroyed by sick parents.--

TR- Yes, we understand you don't like the thought of knowing others are going through the same thing, but at the same time--it's comforting to know your not ALONE and others can and do understand..

-- As for the court documents...the truth IS in there. I have a feeling that dad has totally brainwashed him into thinking he can't access them. Of course he would do that because the ex is afraid of the truth.

TR--Well, maybe you can let him know that when he turns 18, if he would like--you could go with him to get copies of the documents--that way he will have some peace knowing he will see them--and that if it's what he wants--you'll make sure it's possible--

--So here is this kid, dad is saying no you can't access the documents, mom is saying yes you can, and this kid is pretty terrified at what he's going to find.

TR--Of course he's scared--He want's to see both of his parents in a 'good' light--and not think bad of either of them--or believe either of them are capable of doing harm--kids want to believe the best of both parents--all kids do--


--I suspect his reasons for going to live with dad were to keep the peace and keep the heat off of me.

TR- not necessarily--it could be that he felt you had your daughter with you--and dad would have been all alone--and dad needs someone there for him too---my son has also told me his dad used to tell him--that when we got divorced--it was the guys against the girls--and us guys have to stick together---my son is the only boy to carry on the 'family' name--and his dad makes that a BIG ISSUE!! and it sounds as if your ex has maybe done the same thing to your son--

--After all, he knows that I will love him unconditionally -- whereas if he turns his back on his father -- he will NEVER have a relationship with his father.--

TR- My kids struggle with this one too--and at such a young age--they are afraid to take that chance--and it's okay--they are still children and shouldn't have to--but I do try and prepare them emotionally--and let them know that it is okay--either way--they have a right to choose not to be around him when he's drinking if they don't want to be--but that choice does come with a price
and if they aren't prepared for that--it's okay
they don't have to be right now--but they are allowed to talk about what they feel anytime they want too--

I let the kids know--I don't hate their dad--I may not like his choices, just like I don't always like their choices, and they don't always like mine---but I don't hate him--I hurt for him--because I know what he missing out on--it's just unfortunate that they have to suffer the consequences of his choices--

I'm trying to teach them--their choices are theirs
and whatever they decide, they are the one's who are going to have to live with the consequences--
not me, not anyone else--but them--and they don't have to make a snap decision on anything--but that it is okay to weigh everything out--and if someone else tries to force them to make a choice right then---tell them no--and walk away--because it always best to weigh the consequences of your choices before you make them--and if it's such a great thing--you can always decide to do it later-

My son being 9, doesn't comprehend it all--but he's learning a little bit at a time--and processing things--asking lots of questions--not just about the divorce, but also things about my life before I married his dad--which is helping him to learn more about me--and feeling safer ins discussing his own hurts with me--

but, your son is older--and hasn't been there with you over the past few years--so it will probably take him longer--to learn how to work through his hurts--as his dad apparently hasn't taught him how <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

TheFeminineSide: thanks for your post! The ex has NOT completed court-ordered anger management -- he still stalks me, phones and threatens me and still drives by my house to see if my car is home. The judge ordered a neutral pick up point UNTIL he completes anger management -- I agree with the judge 100%. As for our son, he's not the problem -- the ex is. It's called control. The ex is mad that he is not calling the shots and dropping the kids off where HE wants to drop them off.

As for changing the holidays around...I havn't had the children for four years. Every year I have aquiesed and given the ex the option of having them. This year, my whole family (cousins, aunts, uncles etc.) are gathering, as well as my son's two sisters -- he is just being difficult. I doubt that the whole family would like to change the holidays around our son.

Sorry -- I don't mean to sound bitter -- but for four years I have been extending the olive branch, changing MY schedule (including flights for a weekend away), just so that "Daddy Dearest" can get his own way. Enough is enough. Now that I am finally putting boundaries around MY life, the ex is mad and is using our son against me. He can't manipulate the girls because they are no longer with him, so he manipulates the ONE person he has access to. Enough is enough.

{{{{{{{{{{Elan}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for your kind post! Yes, after the kids get away from BrainWashing (just another form of CONTROL because they LOST control over you (and me) when the Marriage ended. Ha! Let's hope your ex and mine never get together! My former wife went totally ballistic and did everything she could to make my life HELL after I moved out and she lost CONTROL over me. She hasn't gotten over it since - now it's 5 1/2 years later and she continues to spread her lies and evil to anyone who will listen. Sad, but true. It's too bad that some folks just can't (or won't) give up and realize what they lost and they will NEVER have it back again..
Forgiveness is soooooo healing. It worked for me and I'm sure it's worked for countless others - both here on MB and other folks who have gone thru Divorce-Land.
PS - A book really helped me out a lot: "Growing Thru Divorce" by Jim Smoke. I got it at my local Christian Bookstore. Believe me, that book covers just about everything you can think of!
May the Lord bless you, Elan.
Harold

MaXX -- I'd be more than happy to give you his address, phone number and of course anything else that you could forward to your wife! No...maybe we shouldn't! TWO evil people together??????? That would make it twice as bad for us!

Thanks for your post. I'll take a look at that book (me...the book hound). I really am looking for ways to deal with this guy. One of the other ladies in here also recommended "Why Does He Do That?" that explains why a person does things like our ex's and also gives some strategies to deal with them. My latest crisis is that I'm just tired of having to do this. It's like having to study for an exam and not know what the subject will be. I never know what kind of *mood* the ex will be in and have to be prepared all the time. Sad thing is, our son is becoming a total clone of his abusive father. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If anyone has any other ideas -- I'll gladly listen! All ideas are welcome (with apologies for TheFeminineSide for being defensive -- I needed to hear what you had to say!)

double post.

<small>[ December 10, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: amnow.ok ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by amnow.ok:
<strong> Elan,

Reregistered to post to you as your post struck such a chord with me. It was if you had a window into my world.

I have no words of wisdom or advice for you, except that I feel your pain as I have been in a very similar situation for over 5 years. (Separated in 1999, divorced Jan 03 as X fought every possible item to hold off remarriage I think . X married his OW spring 03)

X (WS)destroyed his former family in every way by using our children as his weapons in his constant fight with me.

X invests so much needless energy into trying to alienate his children from me, rewarding and condoning abusive and self destructive behaviour and dismissing the children from his orbit whenever they attempt to normalize their relationship with me, or need me as a parent to provide a home (for the youngest) or other parental functions.

The children trust no-one, respect no-one and their relationships with each other are tortured. This family has been totally torn asunder and there has been nothing I can do that I have not already tried. At this point I am totally estranged from my older two who are educated and working. My choice finally, a Plan B as I can no longer continue trying to sort out the bizarre damaging and hurtful behaviour towards myself and their siblings. The younger 2 still need a parent to guide and advocate for them as they both have special needs. X is in denial about this, despite it all being very well documented professionally. He cyclically discards the younger 2 and as soon as they are again getting on with their lives, he reinvests in a relationship with them and the downward spiral begins anew.

It is bad enough when X's leave a marriage, but when they not only refuse any parental responsibility but try their best to totally undermine the other parent who wants to povide the guidance and support to the children, by manipulating the children against each other as well, then it is a total mess, where the scars will forever linger.

My heart goes out to all children and parents who are caught in the web of destruction wrought by an X who is so angry with all his innner demons, despite walking around smiling! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

amnow.ok,

Thanks for your post! You know, I have found it incredibly helpful to talk to other parents that are dealing with the same type of alienation from their children, caused by bitter ex's. I too feel that not only did I get a divorce, but my whole family has been ripped to shreds -- only I'm left with trying to do damage control, show the kids healthy relationships, and try to bring some semblance of *normalcy* into our lives. Impossible to do when you are co-parenting with a person who wants to totally destroy everything you build on.

I was hoping that if my ex re-married, there would be some peace -- but he's been living with a woman for over a year. If anything, his manipulative tactics have been fine tuned by his lover.

My ex also destroyed his former family in every way by using our children as his weapons in his constant fight with me. Our oldest one is now on her own, and after 2 years of NO communication whatsoever -- not even phone calls -- she is coming around. Oh sure she collected the Christmas presents and birthday presents, but basically I was like a piece of sh*t (sorry) on her shoe. The pain of that still remains. The hardest was ppl telling me that I should bite my tongue and take all the abuse from my kids -- and "one day they will turn around". The DAY came when I finally opened my mouth and told her how hurt I was, and how disrespectful she was, and that if she wanted ANYTHING to do with me, I would NOT allow her to abuse me like she was. Plan B? Whatever plan it was, it worked. For a long time I never heard from her AT ALL. She started coming around. Now....it's my son's turn. This time I told him the same, immediately. "I love you, but I will not accept your disrespect. I will NOT allow you to manipulate your way into getting your way. My home has it's rules, and because your father has different rules, he does NOT have a place in MY home. If you have problems with my rules, I am open for discussion and possible changes."

X invests so much needless energy into trying to alienate his children from me, rewarding and condoning abusive and self destructive behaviour and dismissing the children from his orbit whenever they attempt to normalize their relationship with me, or need me as a parent to provide a home (for the youngest) or other parental functions. ---WOW!!! ditto...ditto...and triple, quadruple DITTO!

The children trust no-one, respect no-one and their relationships with each other are tortured. -- this is true for me also with the one living with DAD. The other two really are working hard on respecting and having healthy relationships with everyone around them.

My choice finally, a Plan B as I can no longer continue trying to sort out the bizarre damaging and hurtful behaviour towards myself and their siblings. -- I think that's a very wise choice -- but nonetheless difficult. I think that perhaps if we started a thread for support with parenting children, the group of us could collectively come up with some great ideas to help others. I'm done with the divorce crud....I need help with continuing to parent with a vindictive ex.

Thanks so much for speaking out and posting. I was feeling pretty alone out here and thought my ex was the only vindictive one with the kids.

Elan,

Thank you for your reply. Co parent with the X? Never happened, as he refused to communicate with me about the kids, or tmanipulated information to make me into the evil witch , as well as attacked all the parenting I did and choices I therefore made.

Very few people I know can even understand this aspect of this mess. To talk about the damage to the children is seen as something the "bitter X wife(or husband) "does because they are stuck. This is not the case as in all other areas I am very happy and have made the most of all life has to offer....was served the lemons, but made lemonade, even though it took time!

While we all have to accept the choices X's make, I wish that society would not stand by empowering and enabling this behaviour to children but would take a stand.

I have told my older 2 sons"I love you, but I will not accept your disrespect." as you have to your son, but my sons feel I MUST accept any and all behaviour, they are entitled to treat me any manner they wish to. NOT. After 5 years of this same pattern and them telling me they understood, but without any responsibility taken for the abusive behaviour over and over and reworked so many times to try again, I have walked away and told them that until such time as they wish to make changes this is the healthiest choice for all, especially as they are rewarded for behaving this way.

They have decided that since I have a relationship with the younger 2, who need paretal guidance and have tried it their father's way with catastrophic results, I have brainwashed them to my way of thinking. i.e. respectful behaviour is all a figment of my imagination! The problem is that they will take this very dysfunctional behaviour into all their other important relationships.

While I am not happy with the result, I do have inner peace, and this is priceless, because I also know that there is nothing I could have done very differently, regardless of anything I could have tried, the results today would have been the same.