Hi,

My wife of 6 years left unexpectedly 2 months ago. She is now living in an apt. about 15 minutes away. I knew we had problems that needed to be worked on, and we were seeing a therapist, but I had no idea she was that unhappy. She has a real problem expressing her honest emotions. We have a 2 1/2 year old daughter who we share 50%/50% for now.

I've been trying everything possible to get her to at least try to save our marriage, but she seems to just withdraw more and more every time I bring it up. She only wants to discuss things that are lite and superficial - in order to avoid the truth and the consequences that will follow. She refuses at this time to entertain any thoughts of reconciliation: "I don't love you anymore, and I can't see myself ever going back". At the same time, when I ask her if there is a chance she will try again, the only answer I ever get is "I don't know" or "right now I am happy where I am, but I don't know about the future". Of course I fear that this is just a cowardly way of saying she has no intentions of ever coming back. She has also taken to being very mean, explaining that she is trying to be honest - I'm not coming to see you, just to see our daughter, etc. I'm sure if she could just open her heart and her mind that we would be able to work through this and her feelings of love would be uncovered. But I fear that I am running out of time and our daughter will be the true victim.

I've been reading some books (Susan Page, etc) and she even agreed to read them too - though I'm no sure how open-minded she will be.

Someone suggested a weekend marriage retreat as a way to approach this. I'm not sure I could convince her to do this, but I would certainly try. Does anyone out there think that a retreat or seminar would work in our situation, or should I just save my money for the child support and legal fees? I'm really hurt, but trying everything I can. So far I think I'm just making it worse. Any help, suggestions, names of weekend seminars, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to all of you.

Paul

First of all Paul,

You need to back... way... WAY off. You will never be able to convince her of anything. You will not be able to get her to admit anything. You have absolutely NO CONTROL over her at this point, and the more that you try to hold on and SHOW HER the further you will end up pushing her. You actually sound like you could be in a reltively OK position as far as she goes. But you have to be someone she WANTS to return to and can see trusting. YOU have to be something worth working on for your marriage.

YOU are the one that you can control at this point. Respect her need to be away from you. Love her and respect her. DO NOT TRY to convince her of anything at all. SHOW her that you are worth thinking about. Show her that you are worth being with. THAT is the only way that you will proactively be able to affect her. Work on yourself, despite any short-comings, faults, etc. that you see in her. Make yourself the absolutely very best you can be so that she in turn will see something in you that she apparently has not seen in a while.

Read everything on this site. Do a GREAT Plan A, with you NOT trying to make, show, convince her of anything other than that you will show her through your daily existence that you love and respect her. That you are someone that she should want to be with, regardless of how you were during the past.

This does not mean that she doesn't need to change. That she did or does nothing. This means that you can only affect YOU in this marriage. Give her something to feel desirous of. To want to work on herself for. Give her a loving thoughtful husband and father.

She will have to decide based upon who you are now... and who she remembers you as being. You will have to decide based up on the same things about her.

It's better to invest in a marriage counselor or weekend retreat than save it for a lawyer. At least you stand a chance to save your M.
If you do decide to D, make sure you can say you did all you could. It will matter for your daughter's sake.
And keep up the 50/50 parenting time, if you were an involved father.. It matters in court. Set a precedent.

Paul,
Newly and Formerly Confused have both given you good advice. She has probably told you what she doesn't like about you. Fix these, both for you and your wife. Show her the changes, but you can't press or try to "educate" her. This is not a quick fix.

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure I could convince her to do this, but I would certainly try. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listen to what Formerly Confused is saying.
You do not want to try to "Convince" her of anything right now.
Any type of retreat or counselor is a much better investment than a lawyer as newley said but these things need to come in her time not yours. She needs to want to do it on her own or she will just be running through the motions with you and in the end be able to say she tried.
being patient is very hard at times like this, but it is the most important time of your life to be patient.
Keep up the superficial conversation and don't demean it. If this is what she wants to talk about then it is important to you.

Thanks to all of you for your great advice. I just want to point out that my wife is a great mother to our child right now, but I fear that this will not last as our daughter gets older. I think she has problems communicating and facing conflict and am afraid this will affect her ability to raise our daughter properly. I knew this, but also knew that I'd be there too to temper any problems - as she would be there to help me when I had problems. It's hard to understand how one person can think that 2 single people could possibly do the job of two together.

One real bad spot is that she has very few friends and family to talk to. The only relative she talks with is her sister who is very negative. I'm sure that she just trashes me even though she only met me twice. I don't know if she really has a problem with me or if she's just trying to support her sister, but either way her comments are negative and destructive. She might also be jealous of what we had. Even my wife made that comment a few months ago after a visit. I'm just not sure how anything will change in her mind without some positive influences. *sigh*

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: paul16801 ]</small>

Formerly Confused: How do you see my position with my wife as being relativley ok? She would probably prefer not to talk to me at all. We call each other every night to let the other say goodnight to our daughter. I usually try to make some small talk after that just to have some contact, but if it were up to her, she'd just hang up. How do you show someone improvement when:

A. They don't want to talk at all - least of all about 'us'

B. All they are looking for is negatives

I swear that I would compliment her and shower her with affection, and it would go in one ear and out the other, but the first negative thing I did or said is what she would key in on and remember. Her mother really did a number on her and all her siblings. She had very low self-esteem when we met, but I didn't worry because I figured a few months with me telling and showing her how great she was and how beautiful and attractive she was, and those problems would fade. But they never did and I became frustrated with the results and the negativity, and then it was just a downward cycle. If I could only get in her head for a minute so I could understand, I would do whatever I could.

I know you've all heard the question before, but how can I show her change when she would prefer not to see me? I am pretty sure that "I need space" just means "I have no intentions of coming back or even trying to fix this. I just want space so I can wait enough time to tell you it's over for good." That's why it's so hard to back off and leave her alone. I feel like I'm just making it easier for her to leave.

I'm really hurting here and would appreciate any help I could get from the people on this board. Thanks a lot.

Paul
Maybe a little of my story will help. I was told I love you but I'm not in love with you as were so many others on this board. I was told I need space I want a temporary seperation, I think we need to go to Marriage Counseling.

I kissed her @ss, showered her with affection , tried to get inside her head, and it didn't go in one ear and out the other, It pushed her further away. We are now talking Divorce.
All she saw was negative and you are right. All she will see is negative.
I am living with family and she is in house with kids. She didn't like talking to me or being around me at all.
When I found MB and started working on the basic concepts and following the same basic advice as what people like Formerly Confused are recomending to you, it was like someone fli[pped a switch.
She started talking to me, doesn't mind being around me so much we even were able to keep a minmal sexual relationship going.
We have been seperated for over 3 months, 2 of which I have been working at MB methods. The same 2 months she has been set on D.

As of last night, we are looking for a new Counselor to be able to work on retaining the friendship that we have so we don't spend the rest of our lives hating our X.

2 months of MB principles and advice of people lke Formerly Confused and I went from being an outcast in my own house to working on being best friends with my wife.
She saw the changes even when I didn't advertise them. The first change that is noticable is the first advice that you were given.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First of all Paul,

You need to back... way... WAY off. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nobody her is going to tell you what will work for you or what you should do. They will give you there best advice based on their own experience and the experience they have seen in other MB members.
You need to decide what is right for you but you also need to ask yourself
"Is my way working?"

WishI WereHome

Thanks for your insight. I'm sure you're right. It's just that it's so hard to accept. I keep thinking if she had only communicated her feelings to me when she was feeling them, I would have been able to address them and we'd still be together. I'm more than willing to improve myself. I just need to have some help pointing out where and how this needs to be done.

One thing that is different here from many of the situations I've read about on this board is that there is no other guy. In fact, I think that she'd be content to live out the rest of her life alone except for the 50% of the time she has our daughter. She has said that maybe she's just not cut out to be a wife, but that she is a good mother. I hope she comes to the realization that they're both similar type relationships and she will have similar problems with our daughter in the future if she does not address them.

In the meantime, I will continue to read and continue to hope, pray, and try my hardest to back off.

Thanks again.

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: paul16801 ]</small>

Paul
It is very hard to accept and it is very hard to back off.
One thing that you do need to realize is that things may be over between you and the only thing you can do is to try to keep things as pleasant as you can. Especialy for the sake of your daughter. No child should ever have to grow up with their parents hating eachother. I have 4 and want to make sure that no matter what, they know that W and I both love all of them. You also need to do things for yourself, to make you a better person for you and your daugter. Perhaps if you are a better person for you and her, W may see that you could be a better person for her. If not, you will still be a better person in the end.

My situation is very similar to yours. She always kept feelings to herself until it was too late and she admits that. She was under the impression that she could fix things herself.

I have suspected OM but don't think it is true. See no real signs of it.

You may want to check out divorcebusting.com. There is also a book called Divorce Busting. It helped me learn to "Back Off" as well as communicate better with W. I am now able to get her to share some of the things that, in the past, she always tried to work out alone.

WishIWereHome,

Thanks again for the advice. I guess the thing I resent the most is the fact that she made all these decisions alone. I believe that a marriage is a partnership where both parties are responsible for maintaining, changing, improving, etc. I feel very strongly that I had a *right* to know. She made a decision that affects more than just her without involving the other parties affected.

Have you read or heard of Susan Page and her book "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together"? I'm reading it now, and it suggests many things probably similar to DivorceBusting.com. I even spoke to a couple of her counselors on the phone for advice. They were pretty helpful. Also, on a positive, she did take the two books I gave her. I'm sure she'll read at least one of them - Fighting for your Marriage - I forget who worote it right now, but the reviews on Amazon were very positive. The other one - When Love Dies, said a lot of very relevant things, but it was so into quoting scripture and preaching love for god and Jesus, that I doubt she'll get through it.

I will make an effort to back off - it's not easy.

How about at night whne we call each other to say goodnight to our daughter? Should I even try to make small talk or ask her how her day was or if her headaches are better or if her car is still running ok? Or do I just say goodnight to my daughter and hang up with as few words as possible???

By the way, what is your current status? Is there any chance of reconcilliation for you? Would you even want to at this point?

Paul

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: paul16801 ]</small>

Paul
Conversation at night needs to be done as it feels right. Don't push her to talk but listen to her when she does. Don't forget that if she has a topic she wants to talk about, it is important. I bring up topics like car, headaches, etc.. If she feels like talking about something, we talk. Sometimes she "HAs to run" other times we talk for an hour or so.
Once my W would loosen up on the phone with the small talk, she would sometimes go into the more serious topics but I never bring them up and never argue about anything. I disagree at times but in a calm polite way.
There have been times that I call just to talk to my oldest and don't even ask to talk to W. I know oldest tells her daddy called but I don't want her to feel that I am calling the kids to get to talk to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By the way, what is your current status? Is there any chance of reconcilliation for you? Would you even want to at this point?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if I have a chance for reconcilliation but I like to believe that I do. I do know that it would not be on her terms. I have let her know that if things ever work out between us that many things would have to be different on both sides of the fence. I am working on being me and that is who she would have to take back. Not the me that she wants me to be, the me that I want to be. I also feel that she can't just say the words, She would have to make me want to come back. That is the only way I see it lasting.

so, here's a question for all the people out there who have been through this or are going through it...

if my wife has left, has anyone seen that giving space really works? all i can think is that she wants the space to make it easier for her to move on without considering the consequences of her decision on her daughter and on me. as i've said, she just latches onto negatives - seemingly in order to justify her decision- and refuses to even look at the possibility that there is a chance. i believe very strongly that we could reconcile if she was able to open her mind - but that if i back way way off as recommended, that i just make it easier for her to run into her retreat and hide.

Someone talk some sense into me. I know i can't change the way someone thinks, but i don't want to make it easier for her to leave either.

HELP! This is all so sad and it's just killing me inside.

Hi paul,

I don't have a definite answer for you,I don't know that anyone can.Each marriage is different.I think it's hope that we want to grasp a hold of.

I had to do and did what you have to do: that is let go of WS and let HER find the path.It is one of those situations where you cannot chart it's course for her,you can only do yours.Like others have said,you have to give her her space and time to think.Wether or not it is helpful,well only time can give you that answer BUT time is the grounds for basing decisions on sometimes.

If you give your WW her space and 6 months have rolled by and there is no change despite what you have been doing to help things,then it may be up to you to make the decisions for the both of you.

What's the alternative? Pushing too hard and driving her away,more negative than positive on that aspect.Yes,you might think that giving her her space is like a ticket to denial land but that's where your feelings come in.Do a Plan A,stick to it and give it some time.

I know you have said that you don't think there is another man but you can still be kind to her and try to fill her needs,be there in the periphery when she needs you and let her make the decision to come back and try to work on the marriage.Keep the conversation light and not dive deep into the why's right now.

For my WH,I can actually hear the relief in his voice that the pressure and expectations are off for awhile.Not that I'm letting him "off the hook" so to speak and he stated that he his not away just to get away from things but just giving him some mental alone time.That's all I can do.

O

Thanks for the advice Octobergirl. It's just so hard because I know she will probably stay in denial land for a long time - maybe forever -and even on this site, I read how bad it is to actually separate and how much the odds of reconciliation drop so far when this happens.

So, how does a plan A and B apply to this situation if there has not been an affair? I'm pretty sure there is nobody else, but she has no interest in discussing any of this. It just makes her retreat even more. So how am I supposed to show her the changes in me if all she wants is small talk - if anything at all? I know that this is what she wants, but I don't think it's so that she can gain perspective, I just think that it's to make it easier for her to handle her guilt and leave. At the same time, as I mentioned before, the only influence she gets is from a very negative and toxic sister who is probably encouraging her to do whatever she wants to be happy - and also telling her that our daughter will be better off. It's really none of her business, but she is playing a major role in my wife's decisions right now. Could be similar to what her mother did to all the siblings in her family - pitting them against each other. Maybe her sister wants us apart but is presenting it under the pretense of looking out for her best interests. Misery loves miserable company I guess.

Still broken-hearted...

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: paul16801 ]</small>

Hi again,

Plan A is like trying to meet the spouses En's and you cannot do that that much I agree if you are not together much but those times that you are together,try to show her that you are not pushing anyhting to happen,that you are there for her when she needs you and show her continued reliance regarding your daughter.

You could write your feelings down in a letter explaining how you feel so she will have that to look at whenever she wants as a reminder of where you stand on the situation versus trying to convey that only when you actually see her.

Like wishiwerehome said,you rbest ber right now is to look like a best friend and be as close to that as you can.I definitely know that is hard,that is what I am doing right now too.I think I personally see an improvement because of that with my WH.

Try not to consider stats or rates or whatever regarding separation.It really is based on your own personal circumstances.As much as I think MB is helpful,it is NOT tailor made for each person like a cookie cutter.I think you have to use the principles as much as they apply to your own situation.I don't think everyone will agree with that but that is my own view.

Again,you have to try not to analyze the why's and what if's right now.You should focus on you and your daughter,let your feelings be known to your wife in a letter and continue to be there in the periphery.If she continues down a path that doesn't seem like it;s the right one or rather,the one you wanted,you'll just have to accept that.

As much as we want to change our spouses and can't believe their actions sometimes,it's still up to them to make the right choices,not us.We can just try to be there.I know that sounds helpless, I feel that way sometimes but it is out of our control.Also let your wife know about your feelings,again,regarding your SIL.

I have to go for now but I hope this has helped.

O

thanks again october. just so you know, i have written many emails and cards expressing my feelings and hopes for us and significance for our daughter. she just deletes the emails. she says they make her feel pressured. also, she has implied (i'm sure it's from her negative sister) that i only mention the importance of us being together for our daughter to manipulate her and use our daughter. nothing could be further from the truth.

anyway, it's been a few days with no conversations, but i'm pretty sure it's just making it easier for her to leave.

thanks again, and good luck to you.

paul16801

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but i'm pretty sure it's just making it easier for her to leave.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt the same way at times but I believe now that pressure makes it even easier for them to leave.

Be patient. It took my W 4 days to call me