Five year old daughter awoke at 5 a.m. from this dream,,,

You didn't like me or love me i was about to cry when i had this dream but i don't know why its just a scary when i have that dream. is that true mommy just tell me please?


I started dumping out your wallet when you left the restraunt. i dumped out your wallet when you were not looking you um, i was mad at you so i dumped out your wallet. and i and if you and dad get back together i think i wont have those dreams anymore cuz you and dad are here together and you would care about me. what dad said was probably just a mistake. So can you and dad get back together cuz if i have those dreams again i can just wake you up and tell you and dad.

i had a dream that you were a queen and you was wearing a red dress you came over to talk to dad we were at the restaraunt you came over talking to him. You didn't like or love me mom and i want to know is this true? I had a dream that you had somebody, a guy came over and said (xxxxx) i think i found a guy for you and you walking out the door you were putting your arm around him. and is that true mommy? Was that guy my daddy?
i really miss you alot.


When am i going to see you again?

and that thing that you found makes me start to cry because you were so good to me, (the dads love letter site)
http://www.andiesisle.com/Love_Letter.html

Will this get you mom and dad back together mom?

Mom when are you going to pick me up from the house and drop me off to the house from school and you said you would do that.

And at night i dream about you sometimes and how you were here with us and you loved us and like we me and Zoey used to play. When Zoey and my family is not here with me i feel bad and that makes me sad and i start to cry.


And whatever if you can't get to sleep or have bad dreams just say get back behind me in Jesus's name. If you ever have bad dreams or can't get back to sleep its satan bugging you.

Christmas will probably be a terrible day for me if you know I love you with all my heart, why can't you just come back? why don't you come back?


When i remember when me and XXXX was buddies and i remember when XXXX went over to XXXX and XXXX with me to play.


and if anything goes wrong, just remember i love you with all my heart.


Should i send this dream and letter??
I really want her to see exactly some of what the reality really is about. stbx says the children will be better off,,,

thanks

stever

still standing in Michigan
www.rejoiceministries.org

<small>[ December 08, 2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stephan:
<strong> Five year old daughter awoke at 5 a.m. from this dream,,,
. . .

Should i send this dream and letter??
I really want her to see exactly some of what the reality really is about. stbx says the children will be better off,,,

thanks

stever

still standing in Michigan
www.rejoiceministries.org </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does the five year old want the letter sent, and does she want a description of the dream sent with it?

If so, will she feel worse if the letter does not get the response she wanted?

Once you know the answer to those questions, you can better decide what to do.

elspeth

every word in my post is from my daughter, word for word, as she spoke. I didn't add, or change anything.

She wants the letter sent, and the only thing she is concerned about, rather it makes her mom mad at her.

I asked if she thought it would get her mom and dad back together, she said no, and asked will it dad? adding that she only wants her mom to know how she feels sometines, especially from some of her dreams, and often when she looks at some things around here of her moms.

thanks

You need to explain (at her age level) that sometimes people, (even parents) sometimes make mistakes and sometimes they do things which don't make every one happy.

Also, you need to try & explain that when this happens, the right thing to do is to correct the mistake, but again, not every one is going to do this. And even if people make mistakes and know it, they sometimes choose NOT to do anything about it.

This isn't a blame game, but something you should explain to your daughter so she doesn't think it's her fault in any way. Don't try to explain it as your wifes "fault" either. Also, it will help her to understand how to deal with other people (and herself) a bit better.

Oh, and if you do send this letter, your wife WILL say you made it up or put it into your daughters head and will not believe it's from your daughter.

<small>[ December 09, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Stephan
I don't know your story but

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, and if you do send this letter, your wife WILL say you made it up or put it into your daughters head and will not believe it's from your daughter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure that there is a good chance that this would be true

know my story, shoot, at times i find it difficult to believe that even "I" know my own story. you know? I'm sure i've watched about me, and my personal saga in some movie at one time or another. Now, i'm living that movie. And there's no dang popcorn to go with it!

I'm sure she would think it was from me, by now i've almost been accused of everything else,
so what the heck, what would one more hurt. J/K


When we visited the link stbxw sent to us,, my D was saddened, she wanted to send an e-mail then. I asked stbx if it was ok, she replied "yes" so we did. I never heard anything from it either way. Although i'm sure there were tales being told. Probably in the makings of another movie scene you know?

Her world now knows me as the controlling/abusive
person. This is just putting it mildly, and only the beginning.
I'm sure i'm no longer considered a person, i was only giving myself the benefit of the doupt. Trying to be nice to me, you know?

We had our last MC session yesterday,, when we were asked our goals, W said she only wants to continue to find out about herself, and so she won't continue the same mistake in her next relationship. Adding that she didn't even know herself when she married me,, she then said i still needed to continue by myslef. So,,,


My story,, its been very interesting, and often very exciting, with very few dull moments. The type of excitement i couldn't wish upon anybody.

Maybe the blow could have been softer if she would have at least handed me a tissue from time to time,, ok, a dang box! of tissues.

Today when i picked D up from school, the first thing she asked was, "did you send mommy her e-mail?"

At age three, she was diagnosed with a brain tumor,,, this little one has gone thru more than most people go thru at age 20,,!!??

But, we keep our prayers up daily,,

thanks
stephan, still STANDING!!!

Your right, I think I did see that movie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know what it is like to have a 5 year old waiting for you to do something for them. I've already gone through 2 5 year olds, working on 3rd now with one working her way up to 5.
It is all she will think about until it is done. If you do send it, try to let her know that she may not get a reply and if you do get a reply make sure it is something that you want your little girl to hear before she knows about it.

wishiwerehome


as this little one is my third 5 year old, with another one, two years away from 5.

I wasn't sure, under these circumstances if this letter should be sent.
So i thought i'd seek soem proMB'ers opinions first.

as i do thank you, and everybody else,, thanks

<small>[ December 09, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

If she doesn't understand, it is her fog. Know that. They cannot sometimes or even in the smallest way want to acknowledge what the WS is doing is wrong.

I say send it.

My xh has denied for a year that this has hurt our five year old. Our son is hurting so bad it's not funny. And our son is sad and doesn't want to have a baby sister. It is sad. So sad. He doesn't want OW or her to be preggo or her three year old son who bit him on the stomach a few weeks ago. He wants to be put first in his dad's life...not some OW or OW's kids. He has to share his father with an equally foggy golddigging professional-pregnant scam girl. My son once asked his dad "daddy I saw you push mommy down and she was crying..why did you do that?" His father responded :"I didn't do that." My son said "daddy you are lying".

They lie and make up their own twists and turns on the truth...WS's that is. My x lied to my own son and said to him that he did not push me down when my son witnessed it first hand. My son saw him. And he called his father a liar. So I say give her a bit of what she's missing. WS's don't get it. They don't see what we do see. That's because we are so busy keeping kids, working, and trying to hold everybody together and they are just out there serving their own selfish desires and forgetting their own children are precious and have hearts and little souls of their own.

Send.

justpeachy

In July, stbx was here picking the children up for her visitation,,,

D began asking her mommy why she was hugging this OP,, W denied, of course,, evebtually W asked D why she was doing this to her, lieing about her.
D became very upset, crying and asking her mommy pretty much the same questions.

I became involved, and asked W about this,, her first reply " Why would i hug him, i need another man in my life like i need a F______ hole in my head." I asked again, she replied, "Why would i hug him, besides i have a dog and a computer, why would i need a man in my life?" She then asked me why would she lie about this?
At this time i actually said the conversation needed to stop, D was already upset.

When D came back home, and for quite some time afterwards, she started asking me why her own mommy was doing this to her, saying that she didn't lie, that her mommy was lieing. Adding, i thought she was suppose to love me, i thought i was her daughter, why does she lie about her own daughter,,

Yes WS are nothing but selfish! yes said with some anger included, sorry.


To this day, she still says "i'm" selfish,,,and the children will be better off.

stbx will be recieving the letter,,


i thank ya,,

stephan

The more I hear, the more I believe that W should hear what D thinks, Even if she doesn't believe it right now, Maybe she will start to see it more as D continues to have these feelings about her mother. At the minimum, perhaps it will open her eyes a little toward D

You are allowing your wife to bring your daughter around the om?

with the lies, thats only to smallest issue.

Two months after W moved out, she came back with an ex-parte order giving her custody of our two children.
A week later i was served with this bogus PPO. W set it up so there was a neutral third party involved, which is her first sons grandparents. Yet they were nothing but strangers to my children, they have never met each other, prior to this.

When it was time for me to return the children to these people, my three year old would begin crying, "no dad not make me go, hers mean," (referring to his mommy) If he thought he had to change his clothes before it was time to go, he would attempt to scrunch up, grasping every article of clothing on his body. Thinking that if he didn't have to change, he would be permitted to remain home. Him and my 5 year old often would take off running, crying and screaming down the sidewalk, saying "i not go there," "don't make us go daddy," "no daddy, no please," ,,,

sorry, but after re-visiting this, i have to admit, it stil hurts! The tears are real!

As we attempted to walk out of the house, they so often would try grabbing anything they possibly could grab, still crying and screaming,, when either one would ask me, "why dad, why are you doing this?" it would tear me apart! They would still say "dad, don't make us go to them people, please dad, please!?" AGain, my three year old son would again say, "hers mean, hers yucky." still referring to his mom. adding, no daddy, i not go, stay you dad." with the tears running down his little cheeks. You talk about heart wrenching days!


When we would meet at this intersection,, when it was time to exit the vehicle, the both of them would again, try grabbing anything, seatbelts, arm rests, door handles, everything they set their eyes on, in site, refusing to leave the van, screaming, and crying and asking me why, why dad, why are you doing this to me!?
I almost needed an pry bar often times, including to get their arms and hands pryed loose off me.

Recently W spoke of this, saying what a baby i was for crying when i would drop the children off, this neutral party would inform her i cried. If that makes me a baby, thats ok, i can live with that, you know??

I did feel so bad, me, their father, it was as if I was placing them in the balls of fire! you know what i mean?

Three days ago, stbxw and I had our sixth MC session, she still takes everything, twists it all for her selfish benefits, needs and whatever reasons. Including things said, or done six years ago. Everything has been made into something that it never was, and she always says how she was hurt, its all about her! and her hurting feelings.

MC asked what our goals were, W said all she wants is to divorce,,,

In June, we had an concilliator meeting with FOC,, and on "Fathers Day," I took over full physicl custody!!!

W called me four times that day, reminding me what she thought of me. How i took her children away from her,, and how i was hated. and yes plus a lot more.


just another part of "my story,,"

stephan,

Bummer...

Recently W spoke of this, saying what a baby i was for crying when i would drop the children off, this neutral party would inform her i cried. If that makes me a baby, thats ok, i can live with that, you know??
Exactly! If you can't show emotions when you're children are suffering, then something's wrong.

In June, we had an concilliator meeting with FOC,, and on "Fathers Day," I took over full physicl custody!!!
Excellent!

It really ticks me off when people post on here and say things like, "my wife is having an affair and she is going to take the kids and move out."
Hello? Why are you letting her take the kids? (aside from restrainiing order/ppo)

If your spouse is having an affair, I say I say do everything possible to keep the children out of that situation. And the one NOT having the affair should get primary (sole?) custody.

<small>[ December 10, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Maybe I misunderstand what is going on here. I don't know. But I see a 5 year old being put into a situation with too much power in your marriage/relationship/divorce. I completely empathize with you, and I completely agree that divorce is so very harsh and hurtful to your family. But for your children to be acting like this, I fear there might be more going on. Both at her place... but also at yours.

Are you being as 'Neutral' as possible when you speak about your ex? Your children... unless they are truthfully being abused, will take most of their interactions and beliefs STRAIGHT FROM HOW YOU BEHAVE, act towards, talk about, etc. your ex.

I am sorry, and I am all and completely for honesty. But there is a limit and it is often far from the total truth, to what a young child needs to know about a divorce. Their world is so simple, they don't understand the complexities of relationships/adultery/abuse/divorce. They see everything so black and white... Good/bad. I fear that for you to be willing to sit there and type this letter/email you are 'encouraging' these thoughts in your child. Accept them... soothe them... then try with everything you have to give her something GOOD to be thinking about in its place. If you allow yourself to wallow in your children's misery (even if every word she says is true and everything you believe about your ex is also true) you are allowing yourself to detrimentally affect your children in my opinion.

There is NO good way to deal with this pain. I know both my boys have talked with me about the pain of divorce and how they fear, worry, etc. everyday because of it. I talk to them about it, but I turn the conversation around into what are we going to do NOW that this has occured? What are our NEW dreams (given the shattering of our old ones)? I accept and empathize with my boys beyond all else, but I try to stear their feelings and thoughts to better ones. I fear that if you put this pressure on your child at this time, she very well might resent you in the future.

I might not be putting this very well. I am NOT in any way attacking you. I think however, that you should reevaluate how you are interacting with your children. How much each child needs to know within their capabilities to understand. How much 'truth' needs to be known at this time, and how much 'glossing over' needs to occur for your own children's sake. I don't believe in lying at any point, but I DO BELIEVE that we have to be stewards in our parentage, and choose at what times we speak of things, and what times we say, 'Lets talk about something else."

A quick thought is that by giving your child your entire attention during the writing of this email, you might be encouraging her to continue thinking and feeling this way. She had your attention as she told you this. She probably got hugs, kisses, etc. during it. In effect she was 'rewarded' for these thoughts. I fear that she might have them more often, or 'want' to do this again because even though she feels bad saying them, she feels good being with you as she says them.

What I am saying is PLEASE just be mindful of ALL the effects of divorce on your relationship with your children. Be the father... that means protecting them from harm. Sometimes the real harm is that which we ourselves believe in...

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

formerly confused

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I see a 5 year old being put into a situation with too much power in your marriage/relationship/divorce.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the past, my daughter has already been typing letters to her mom, i'll have to point out a few letters on the keyboard, this is why after her dream, she asked if she could write to her mommy.
When she shared her dream to me, i asked her questions like how did that make you feel,,, than i reassured her that her mommy will alwasy love her.

The thing she really wanted to do, was "talk" to her mom, she wanted to call her. she knew she could send a letter, so,,,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Their world is so simple, they don't understand the complexities of relationships/adultery/abuse/divorce. They see everything so black and white... Good/bad</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, their world is so simple, or so its suppose to be.

It used to be one thing in the past when the children would hear the simple statement, XXXX is upset with me,, now that same phrase has a new meaning,, they wonder, or even think the other parent is being spoken about, in a bad way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you allow yourself to wallow in your children's misery </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll allow some empathy listening, along with the empathy questioning, you know. I can't wallow in their pain though, but i can accept it, and let them realize that its real, do you understand what i mean??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I try to stear their feelings and thoughts to better ones.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As i agree, i have done the same. I have also elected to allow them to continue,, with me saying "nothing."
Is it possible, that they can/will realize that "I" will only talk about something else, leaving them wondering/feeling where their feelings/thoughts didn't amtter?? Even if it is about "new" dreams??

Rather their thoughts or feelings are justified, o rwhatever, if i always, like you said, "turn" things into the now with new dreams,, IMO, thats not really allowing their feelings to be heard, or accepted. IMHO, i feel they do need to be heard,, and reassured its ok to feel that way,, because their pain is real. Sometimes allowing the conversation to end with tears, can be just as healthy.

I'm wondering,,
Wouldn't i be risking them to surpress their feelings if i continue to turn things around, as wouldn't this eventually risk them really opening up, is it really acknowledging them, and their feelings? Do you understand where i'm coming from, and my concerns?

Can we ever really talk, or listen enough to our children thru divorce?? Do we really make it easier, even if we turn things into the new?
I seriously doupt it,,,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">STRAIGHT FROM HOW YOU BEHAVE, act towards, talk about, etc. your ex</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My walk, my talk, is towards the healing of my mariage, as well as the love for this lady, as the mother of my children,, so speak bad about her, would be to speak bad about my children, as myself included. My walk, and my talk also includes my faith in our Father,,

When W began accusing me of talking bad about her, when i shared my true thoughts, as for the praying,, she hasn't said no more. I also aske dher wouldn't that be double standards, and what would that do to our children? listening to me talk bad about her, or anybody else.

The message i'm also sending to our children, is God hates divorce, and marraige is a life long commitment,, regardless what the rest of the world has to say. As we talk about this on an occassion.

Shoot, when our car begins to rust, we trade it in,, couples often buy a starter home, maybe i should teach our children to have a starter marriage,and to trade their spouse in,,, could you imagine such a thing??


I do know that my children will now never know the true meaning of what a family was meant to be, do you understand?
Lets jump ahead,, when daughter graduates kindergarden class, when W and i are sitting there, she will attempt to go to one of her parents, knowing perfectly well, that one of her parents is going to be bothered. At that moment, she won't know for sure what parent to go to,,
All the turning around to the "new" will not prepare them for these type of circumstances. Will it? Can it??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
What I am saying is PLEASE just be mindful of ALL the effects of divorce </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can assure you, this i'am.

I can remember several Christmas mornings (I only mention Christmas, cuz "tis the season,,)wondering what my dad was doing, and how he was feeling, can you hear what i'm saying?


I know i don't always have the right answers, or solutions,, but i sure do try, you know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She probably got hugs, kisses, etc. during it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She had her hugs, kisses during ehr saddened time while sharing her dream, during the email typing, no hugs, no kisses. I only finger plucked. Meaning, i only listened, towatds the end of her letter, she asked me what else she could say,, my words to her, i can't, and won't tell you what to say, or what not to say,, its your letter.

Neutral? what do you think?? Do i sound neutral? Am i right? am i wrong?

I'd like to say, i wasn't left feeling attacked by anything you shared, or said, ok? i will thank you for your opinions, thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


God created marriage, God of Israel says He hates divorce.

i still STAND.
www.rejoiceministries.org

If you haven't sent the letter yet, I would not. I don't think it would help anyone for that email to be sent. It certainly won't move you towards reconciliation. I doubt your wife will be moved by it...well, she might be moved to anger and bitterness towards you. And I doubt your child will get reassurance from her mom like she's hoping for.

I would reassure your daughter at moments like these that her feelings are okay and that she will be okay no matter what happens because God will make everything turn out for good because like He promised to. Explain that we do not know how He is going to do that but He promised that He would do that and He always does what He promises. I would keep that focus with my children. I would be careful to listen but not coach in anyway...it is VERY easy to steer young child just by what/how you question. If she insists on sharing her feelings with her mom, I would encourage her to do so verbally over the phone or in person. That will limit it looking like it is being made up or coached by you and it will require interaction both ways between them.

I seriously doubt you are trying to coach your daughter when you ask her questions about her feelings. I am not suggesting that you are. However, I know first hand how simple it is to do without meaning to.