RWD,

--I think the key here is that many have said they have been emotionally/physically detached from their spouse/ex for x amount of time so they are ready to date.--

TR--I agree with this--

--However the problem as I see it, IMO, is that when we start a new relationship, that when that person shows us any interest, that we immediately forget to look for any red flags and immediately blame everything on our ex's and forget all about working/improving ourselves.--

TR--I didn't do this--I was very in tune to looking for red flags--to the point that even the slightest thing that triggered something inside of me--that reminded me of past emotions--I looked at it--and would begin asking myself a series of questions--

1. Why does this bother me?

2. Is it that they MEAN it this way? or is it just MY perception? the only way to find out--is to TALK ABOUT IT!! So I learned to ASK--and not assume the worst--and it's not that I asked---

Did you mean it this way? being specific because I know they could say whatever to get what they wanted--so I asked "What do you mean by this?" to get their definition about how what was said or done--that way there is no mis-communication--

and if they made comments like--"Well, take it however you want" --I'd know this relationship isn't the right one--and there was no point going any further with it--I'm not a mind reader and I don't want a relationship based on assumptions--either they can explain their intent or they can't
and if they can't--well then I don't want that relationship--because I don't want to have to be their teacher--

Just like if they brought something to my attention about my own motives--I'd take time to think about it before I answered--unless I already knew the motivations behind it--(I didn't always)I learned that sometimes I was just reacting out of habit--

If I was considering going out with someone--I'd go on the premise of "Would I want to spend the rest of my life with this person?"

that might sound strange, as I'd just gotten out of a bad marriage--and not wanting to rush into another marriage--so why would I ask such a question??

Well, "dating" brings on a host of emotions--and if I had no intentions of getting married again why would I want to become that emotionally involved with someone?? Why risk hurting them, or myself? it's not fair to either one of us--

So if you date with that question in the back of your mind--and knowing what you want and don't want in a long term relationship--you'll tend to be more selective in who you choose to date--

You'll tend to notice things that bug you faster--
and if it's something your not sure about--you'll be more likely to ask questions for clarification-

If you feel either of you are getting emotionally involved to quickly--don't hesitate to step back
and end the relationship at that point--to help you think more clearly--and don't hesitate to be honest about why--because if you can't be honest with them about even that--then your not respecting yourself--or the other person--

--After all this new person likes us as we are! So why change/improve ?????? --

TR--And sometimes--it's not ABOUT US needing to change those aspects of ourselves--but the other person needing to change something within themselves--not that we all don't need to change
and grow in some areas--but you need to make sure those changes aren't going to make things worse for you--where you are changing to meet their expectations--and what they "think" you should be-
just to please them and make them happy at the expense of losing yourself--

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

TRl,

BINGO!

You know I love the way you articulate.

When you write a book, I'll be the first one to buy it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have dated a few men and have done exactly what you said.
When I saw the red flags I questioned their origin.
when I took the time to find where they were coming from, that's when I made my choice to end the relationship.
It's a matter of knowing myself.

Thanks again for your clarity.

Happy New Year!

Aly

<jumping in after Aly's post...>

As far as asking questions... another thing that I've found has been, when you spot a red flag, to question it in different ways and under different circumstances. The answer someone gives you during a distraction (like playing tennis) is bound to be different than the one they give during a softly-spoken and romantic conversation. Lies tend to crop up as differences in the INTENT of the answer change.

Another thing, occassionally I have found that I have hit major red flags IN THE PAST. While you can say, "Well, the past is what brought us together..." some things you can't just blow off like that. If the intent of dating is to share a vision of the future, you have take the past into consideration as a trend line that either points to an ability to share common dreams, or not. Having gone through my divorce, I find an intense desire to watch, listen, and learn about the other person... discussing various concerns before taking a relationship to the next level.

Right now, I'm in an awesome relationship and I'll probably ask her to marry me sometime soon. Ironically, it's not the major red flags that bother me as much as the occassional behaviors that suggest there might be others I haven't come to terms with yet. Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm..." and make me postpone an engagement.

It's hard, after a divorce, to identify what is actually a red flag and what is merely a trigger leftover from the last marriage.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We learn who people are by the way they treated us in the past?

The idea is to not hold the past against them.
Forgive and move forward.
Expect she is giving you the her best all the time.
Don't assume she will fail you.
Give her the chance to be the best she can be.

"Lies tend to crop up as differences in the INTENT of the answer change."

(I don't get it. Please explain)

Aly

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lyxa:
<strong>It's hard, after a divorce, to identify what is actually a red flag and what is merely a trigger leftover from the last marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy is THAT an understatment. I found this to be very, very true. And I still worry about it some as I go forward in the "dating" world.

The other thing I wanted to say is that even tho your might THINK you have been emotionally apart from your spouse, long before the actual divorce takes place, it ain't necessarily so. The "divorce" actually has an effect on things.

For me, I was separated from my x-H for 2+ years before I got involved again in another relationship (and only a few months after the divorce - I thought I was ready). That lasted about a year and didn't really work out. Now in retrospect, I wish I would have waited until a year AFTER the actual divorce....I needed that time I think. The recovery from this last relationship has been hard and long.....it feels like it set me back to those early separation days.

Hope this makes sense. I guess we all have to do what we feel is best for ourselves.

Dating stories ---

I can top Anna with this one - and I probably should NOT be telling it HERE...

The first date I went on after my Ex left - was a really nice guy from here in town --- and we went to a steak house on the north end. It was so much fun - I had a blast. But after we started eating I suddenly started sneezing. I sneezed so hard - I was scrambling to get out of the booth and to the bathroom - I found out how much panti-liners really hold. I was so embarrassed - and so grateful. Ladies - if you ever want to know which panti-liner to buy --- it's the ones in the yellow box. I made it to the bathroom - but, I was afraid to leave!

I still can't believe I sneezed so hard I wet my pants. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Finally a friend who was waiting tables came to check on me and I was okay - just embarrassed. I'd only been in there a couple of minutes - but my date had left - before I could have gotten out of the bathroom. My friend said he was out of there like a flash!!! He dropped a $50 on the table and left. She got a $30 tip that night.

He's never called back - and I saw him around town for a while after that, but last time I talked to his boss - he mentioned that he'd asked for a transfer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

The funny part is - his boss and I are good friends, have dates several times over the past 30+ years whenever we both happen to be single (as friends) - and I've never had THAT happen before or since.

~anonymous~

Ms.O,

<strong>It's hard, after a divorce, to identify what is actually a red flag and what is merely a trigger leftover from the last marriage. </strong>

TR--I agree, but those triggers are what show us where to look for the red flags--and allow us to examine those areas closer--as we recognize whether or not's a just a past hurt that was triggered or if it was an area something was WAY off--

--The other thing I wanted to say is that even tho your might THINK you have been emotionally apart from your spouse, long before the actual divorce takes place, it ain't necessarily so. The "divorce" actually has an effect on things.--

TR--It add's the finality to it all--the really knowing it's over--and this is how it's going to be from now on--

--For me, I was separated from my x-H for 2+ years before I got involved again in another relationship (and only a few months after the divorce - I thought I was ready). That lasted about a year and didn't really work out. Now in retrospect, I wish I would have waited until a year AFTER the actual divorce....I needed that time I think. The recovery from this last relationship has been hard and long.....it feels like it set me back to those early separation days.--

TR--I don't know if that would have been better--look back at all you learned during that year long relationship--about yourself, and more about what you want and don't want in a relationship--

Had you not faced some of those things then--it would have just postponed some of those things--

I think that even though a person waits a year after the divorce--they will still have to deal with many of those same emotions---of getting back into the dating world--

Which is why I guess, I opted to go out with people I was aquainted w/ in the past--

For one, I knew something about them already--
and it was more of catching up with old friends than looking for a permanent relationship--

It also helped me learn to set my boundaries in areas I struggled with in the past--with people there was no emotional connection to--other than we'd known each other years ago--and it really helped me to learn it's okay to tell someone NO, and if they feel hurt by my *NO*--they are the one's who need to learn to deal with their hurt--
not me--I didn't need to feel guilty because I set a healthy boundary for me--

Which I think is really difficult to do after you come out of a long term marriage or relationship--
as your so used to giving of yourself to make the other person happy--and with dating--you don't need to give to that extent--and you need to learn to re-balance yourself--in this area--

--Hope this makes sense. I guess we all have to do what we feel is best for ourselves.--

TR--It makes perfect sense--but like I said..look at how much you grew and learned about yourself during that time--it wouldn't have happened yet, had you not dated when you did--

I was actually discussing 'dating' with my daughter and what to look for in men... TODAY.

We've talked before - and never really had any basis to put under the process of making choices - other than the biblical basis which we both try to use - but it doesn't always work given the perimeters we have today.

In watching a movie - she asked how do you avoid THAT situation - and I answered with the obvious. You don't marry an abusive spouse - and she wanted to know how you avoid that.

The man in the movie was quite chivalrous, but it was staged. The wedding took place far too soon in the relationship, and the reality of the situation was that the bride only knew him under limited conditions.

My suggestion was to meet prospective spouses under a variety of different conditions and look for the 'reality' in each situation. Everyone has variables in their personality, various emotional reactions that are construed differently in situations that range from high stress to low stress to happy to sad, etc. But there should be a sense of reality in any situation where a person might find themselves. It requires a bit of intuition - and self trust to find the 'reality' but it should be there, and you should be able to TRUST it, count on it, rely on it, and depend on it - before you say yes to marriage.

If the person you are dating is forever 'explaining their anger' or 'lamenting their own cause for hurting you' or 'justifying their behaviors' you might want to think twice about marrying that person - or even continuing to date them. Baggage, FOO, former spouses, bad luck, misfortune, and past experiences are no excuse for treating the current relationship badly on a consistent basis. There is always a period of learning about someone new, learning to be with someone new, and learning new styles of communication and understanding, so during the very early stages of a relationship - a bit of justification or explanation may be necessary. But if you are walking down the aisle and your soon-to-be is STILL attempting to justify why he has to have Thursday night out with the guys - yet smells like he's been out with the girls when he comes home - you might want to rethink your response at the alter.

If for any reason you still wonder who that person on the other end of those lips you are kissing is --- you better find someone else to kiss...

Know them - inside - outside - all over and under before you walk down the aisle... Even then I guarantee you are in for a few surprises!!!

Blessings,

Jan

Several things have been brought up here that I know that I have thought about and perhaps have been guilty. I have been dating for the past 7 or 8 months. Several women initially, single dates except for a couple with one. I knew from the beginning that I didn't want to be with them long term, and didn't want to hurt anyone.

About 5 months ago, I met someone who was very much like the person I want to be with in alot of ways and not so much in others. Sometimes I feel picky, because she has so many things that I desire. She is incredibly loving, kind, and giving. Perhaps so much so that it is difficult to believe that she could be sincere given my past experience with my ex. So 'red flag' or just stupidity for looking at something that I want and find, then being suspicious??? It makes me upset with myself. There are other things that I love about her, but there are also other things that I don't.

I have found that my dates and girlfriend have been very much more 'ready' for more than I have been at the time. I know that I want to be remarried and have a family, but whenever I think about it, I worry about making poor choices in who I choose again. So I feel sometimes as though I am hypercritical, and I know that isn't fair. I don't want to be, but I don't know when to 'let something go' like her 'desire to cook but showing no interest in learning' or her relative 'looseness' with how she raises her children. These are big issues for me, not so much about the cooking, but I don't want to be with someone who talks about things but doesn't do anything about them. I also KNOW that I couldn't raise or even be with her children as she raises them. They are the cutest little girls, that backtalk, throw, hit, etc. I have two boys that are required to toe a pretty thin line, and I think that is how our (my/her) children should be raised, and I know that I couldn't let them throw a cup or talk back to me or to her, and get away with it. Therefore I hesitate in moving any further with the relationship. She wants more, and makes no bones about her feelings for me.

I just know that these as well as a couple of other things are truly deal breakers. I don't want to be a "change for me or I am out of here" kind of guy. That is so NOT who I am nor do I want to be. But I also know that I can't be with someone who doesn't have these same beliefs. I have hinted/overtly given my opinion about certain things, especially our children, and she will 'agree' and says she has tried doing some things that I have mentioned and has had good results. But I still see so much that I know I couldn't be involved with...

It is hard to sort out. I like her in so many very important ways. But I have these hard and fast feelings about a couple things that cause me concern. I know that no one is going to be perfect, and that knowledge is exactly what makes it so difficult. Knowing that there is no perfect person... when to you know to 'let it slide' and when to call it quits? She seems so willing to do things, and has never said, 'I disagree with what you are saying." Therefore, I can't feel that we couldn't get ourselves straightened out. But then again, I don't want her changing for ME. I want her to agree with the things I agree with and I want to believe in the things she believes in.

I don't want to make her into my 'perfect' person. I just want her to 'be' my wonderful person. So many things I want to be I feel that I hold back, because I know that if I were to be myself, I would strengthen an already considerable hold on her, and should she not be the person I end up being with, I fear I would hurt her significantly. And I don't want that. I am at least 'with it' enough to know that I DON'T KNOW what I want right now. Other than that...

So back to SJs post... I am guilty of allowing my past affect how I hold back on my current relationship. I don't give everything, because I fear that by giving everything I will be 'roped' into something that I might want out of later. I want to be just exactly who I am, loving, kind, considerate, romantic, chivalrous... everything and then some. But I fear that if I am and then find that I don't want to be with this person, I will have led them on or made them feel more and hurt more as well.

<small>[ January 02, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Heya Aly,

By INTENT, what I'm saying is that there is a way of having a fairly intense and stressful conversation where the underlying message from both parties is: "I want you to understand me. I love you." As you question different things, does that underlying message change to: "I do not trust you and so am going to hide something." There are all kinds of messages... but these become most obvious when talking about red flags. For example, a huge red flag for me would be if my love were currently addicted to and doing narcotics. So, I ask. She says she's not. She could, like my x, become horribly offended. She doesn't. She answers me in a loving and empathetic way.

BUT, what if narcotic addiction is in her past? Or any other red flag for that matter... you talk about it... does the underlying message change from "I love you" to... "This is my past and none of your business." Granted that at some point you have to leave the past alone, but we all have red flags... what if the red flag were in the other person's past? How many of us would thoughtlessly jump into a relationship with someone who admits that they cheated in their last serious relationship? Or were abusive? What if they don't admit it... but you see signs of it?

Most of the time, we're just going to see signs... and then like FC says, the challenge is figuring out if it's an actual sign or we're just being overly-picky and/or critical. I've found that Trust jump-starts for me... it's there and then something happens that shakes my belief in human nature... not necessarily HER NATURE... just human nature in general... and soon I have a complete rationalization that illuminates the red flag... am I being critical or just observant?

It's hard to say. My DV taught me more about human nature than I ever wanted to learn. I don't want to make the same mistakes I now know that I made... but JUST KNOWING I made mistakes in my first marriage predisposes me to wonder if there are new mistakes that I could be making, what they are, and how I can identify/overcome those while dealing with the ones I actually know I made.

The most ironic thing is looking back on my posts and all the talk about "working on myself"... I still have a long way to go and that this is a lifelong quest... I find myself wondering if the person I have found is looking for a lifelong quest or a stepping stool; what am I?

Formerly Confused,

--So 'red flag' or just stupidity for looking at something that I want and find, then being suspicious??? It makes me upset with myself. There are other things that I love about her, but there are also other things that I don't.

TR-It's being neither--it's being honest with yourself--

--I don't want to be, but I don't know when to 'let something go' like her 'desire to cook but showing no interest in learning' or her relative 'looseness' with how she raises her children.

TR--Have you considered that she's afraid to discipline her children out of guilt? Maybe she's tried this before and they spout the words "I HATE YOU" or maybe thinking she has to make up for their dad not being there, dad always just has fun with them--and they threaten to go live with him--if she disciplines them? Or that she wants to be more of a friend and not the parent
maybe afraid they won't love her if she's the "mean parent" and not the 'friend' --

These are things you can help her learn to change-no, you can't force her to change no, but you could encourage her to want to change--as I'm sure she doesn't like it when her kids treat her disrespectfully--

--These are big issues for me, not so much about the cooking, but I don't want to be with someone who talks about things but doesn't do anything about them.

TR--I don't understand about the cooking issue--but I am going to assume she doesn't know how to cook very well or doesn't cook at all--maybe you could suggest the two of you take a cooking class together for fun???

--I also KNOW that I couldn't raise or even be with her children as she raises them. They are the cutest little girls, that backtalk, throw, hit--

TR- how did her ex react to these things? Did he get on to the girls for talking back to their mother?? I'd venture to guess he didn't--and so they learned by his actions it was okay to do this--maybe causing her to give up even trying to be treated with respect by her kids--

I'll be honest--this is a weakness for me--I'd never had the support of my ex or even family when it came to the discipline of my kids--and it felt as if I was alone--to where I would get frustrated and think it wasn't worth it--even though deep down I knew it was--It's just so much easier having someone, anyone--giving you the support you need in this area--

I realize your not looking at remarriage right at the moment---and before you do--read the book The Smart Step-Family, by Ron L. Deal, as it has a wealth of information for anyone even remotely considering this step-parent role--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly Confused:
<strong> So back to SJs post... I am guilty of allowing my past affect how I hold back on my current relationship. I don't give everything, because I fear that by giving everything I will be 'roped' into something that I might want out of later. I want to be just exactly who I am, loving, kind, considerate, romantic, chivalrous... everything and then some. But I fear that if I am and then find that I don't want to be with this person, I will have led them on or made them feel more and hurt more as well. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just a recommendation about her children --- don't step in and try to make changes before you have developed a relationship with them. And then - slowly - and with her POJA - be sure it's ENTHUSIASTIC on her part - because this will also be a deal breaker for her.

Something else you may want to consider - what you may be considering *backtalk* she may actually consider communicating. I'm an extremely strict parent, and I have very strong views of children talking back to me, but my mother considers what one child says back - as back talk and I do not. Getting this particular child to communicate since the divorce has been trying - and often his communication comes out first as anger. I need those insights to help him adjust. I do talk to him about treating me with respect, when these events happen, but he is still dealing with the rejection of a father who has no contact with him - father's choice.

In this instance - I would strongly recommend that you Seek first to understand - before asking to be understood. there may be more to the picture than you know about.

Jan

One thing that comes to mind when I am reading this thread is that we need to remember that opposites attract. That means that if I am a take-charge type of person, I will probably be attracted to a laid-back, easy going person. This can be very complementary if we can find middle ground and learn from each other. But like in my former marriage, my laid-back person did not see my side or respect my feelings so we lived in constant unresolved conflict. There is where the destruction take place.

I am not dating and do not know if I ever will. Not feeling at all like I need that right now but this is a very interesting thread and I think that it has a place on MB forums. We need to be able to express what we think we need in a spouse and what we have learned about our failings so that we can be more successful.....then there may be a time to be in the marriage building stage of life.

TW

I've read this thread with great interest, as I have been struggling with my feelings as I date. I think I am so worried about making another poor choice in a partner that I am systematically coming up with reasons to ultimately reject all the men I am dating/have dated. I feel like a Seinfeld character, coming up with silly reasons for breaking up. (She's a low talker, he's a close talker, she has man hands!)

I don't consider my reasons as trivial as the Seinfeld ones, but like someone else mentioned, I am not sure of what to let slide and what not to, and I'm obviously deciding to err on the side of caution. Some of them are obvious - not a Christian, not interested in children, very caught up in themselves/their looks, but others are not so cut and dry. (Example, failing to follow through on something - was that just an oversight, or a personality trait that would be a huge deal later)

I know that I am guilty of originally putting the person I am dating/considering dating up on a pedestal, and then being disappointed when they aren't perfect. I am SO not perfect, and I certainly don't expect my partner to be, so I am upset about feeling this way. I know that marriage is hard work and love is a choice, and all that stuff. I learned that the first time. But I guess I wonder if my expectations are too hard to meet, and I'm putting up too many self barriers. It is good to reflect on this stuff, I guess, and I just pray a lot that I will recognize the right person if God chooses to send him my way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In the dating process, when do you tell someone that you love him/her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhoamInow:
<strong> I've read this thread with great interest, as I have been struggling with my feelings as I date. I think I am so worried about making another poor choice in a partner that I am systematically coming up with reasons to ultimately reject all the men I am dating/have dated. I feel like a Seinfeld character, coming up with silly reasons for breaking up. (She's a low talker, he's a close talker, she has man hands!)

I don't consider my reasons as trivial as the Seinfeld ones, but like someone else mentioned, I am not sure of what to let slide and what not to, and I'm obviously deciding to err on the side of caution. Some of them are obvious - not a Christian, not interested in children, very caught up in themselves/their looks, but others are not so cut and dry. (Example, failing to follow through on something - was that just an oversight, or a personality trait that would be a huge deal later)

I know that I am guilty of originally putting the person I am dating/considering dating up on a pedestal, and then being disappointed when they aren't perfect. I am SO not perfect, and I certainly don't expect my partner to be, so I am upset about feeling this way. I know that marriage is hard work and love is a choice, and all that stuff. I learned that the first time. But I guess I wonder if my expectations are too hard to meet, and I'm putting up too many self barriers. It is good to reflect on this stuff, I guess, and I just pray a lot that I will recognize the right person if God chooses to send him my way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HA! I just saw that Seinfeld re-run the other night!! Jerry finally decided to put his excuses aside, and date a woman he knew...but he couldn't help focusing on her big head! It's so true....

I feel very much the way you do too. What I would like in a husband and what's available (at least in my area) are on two opposite ends of the spectrem it seems!

I dated a gentleman in the past two years (for a year) and he had alot of the qualities I'm looking for. However, he lacked a few of the qualities I know are important and it compromised the trust I felt in him.

Yet there are some days that I am so discouraged about meeting someone that I wonder if I should have snatched him up when I had the chance. I know he still loves me and I still have very strong feelings for him, but in my heart I don't think we are that good of a match and there are already problem areas that would need to be addresses. I don't think that's a good way to start of a relationship!

One of the things that bothers me is that I am a highly compentent person in all other areas of my life except, I feel, when it comes to men. I have a hard time knowing which areas to make compromises in and it seems like in the past, I don't have that great a track record for picking a good man. It's frustrating.

Plus I really don't like dating! I am usually so loyal the the person I am dating, it's either all (a realtionship) or nothing. And don't even mention dating more than one person at a time...I just can't do that.

Oh well...more woes to share.....

my struggle is this - after a couple of dates, is it ok to call him? Or should I wait for him to call? And when do you start to talk about being exclusive?

and one more question, anyone have any personal expereience with EHarmony?

my struggle is this - after a couple of dates, is it ok to call him? Or should I wait for him to call? And when do you start to talk about being exclusive?
Depends on how long after the divorce is final before you started dating.
The longer it has been, the more serious you could be in a relationship.

Recently divorced - final on December 17