Hi,

I wanted to email this question to Dr. Harvey, and don't know if anyone else can help. My last thread got a little sidetracked, and I'm still looking for a few opinions on my 'plan'. Here it is:

My wife left unexpectedly 2 months ago after 6 years. I have been trying everything to get her to give our marriage one more chance. We have a 2 1/2 year old daughter whom I am very concerned about. My wife has told me she has no desire to get back together and that she does not love me anymore. Claims to have been unhappy for years and now finally feels like herself again.

I was hoping to get her to agree to go to the upcoming seminar in Orlando. It will be very expensive for me, but well worth it if it helps to save our marriage. My question is: does this seminar have any chance of opening my wife to try again even if she goes with a completely closed mind? The reason I ask is because I am thinking about proposing to her that if she agrees to go, I will leave her alone until then (she feels that I'm pressuring her too much), and if it doesn't work, I will agree to the divorce that I know she wants. I'm not sure this is a good plan, and I don't want a divorce, but I feel that it may be the only way to get her to go to Orlando. If the seminar will not be effective on a spouse who is focused on negatives and feels that she can't love me again and doesn't even want to love me again, then I don't want to take the chance of giving her the easy out when there may be a better way. I just want my family back together <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Paul

Paul
This was posted by lbc on your last thread

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know anything about the MB weekend, but from our Retrouvaille weekend, it can only help. We got to that first evening of Retrouvaille with WS still in the A and me not having any hope for our M. 24 hours later I was still very angry, but something happened later that night. We started talking and that may have been the beginning of the end of the A. If you can get her to the weekend, you may be able to connect again. Good luck!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

thanks WIWH. I was hoping for some first-hand opinions. I'm about to give her a definite out if she agrees to go but will not open her mind. She might just go to be able to say she tried and then hold me to my end of the proposal.

Still can't take it when my daughter wakes up in the middle of the night crying for her mama, and asking when is momma coming home! She's only 2 1/2 for god's sake! Can't my W see what she's doing? How can it not be worth at least trying? What does she have to lose? A fewmonths? versus what? the rest of her life?

Very confused and still hurting...

paul -

your post caught my attention because, by your handle, it looks like we live in the same town. in my opinion, i wouldn't make the proposal you're planning on. if her mind is closed, there is little chance of any success, in which case you'd be stuck with either living up to your end of the deal (which you don't really want to do) or backing down and appearing manipulative in your wife's eyes. this looks like a no-win proposition to me. the weekend intself may be very helpful, although i have to admit i'm skeptical of how much long-term good can come from a one-time event, but don't make the "deal" in order to get her to do it. i've never been to one of these, so take my opinion for what its worth. is there any chance of phone counseling with the Harleys or of getting her to attend in-person counseling? i know you said she is not really interested in trying to work on things, so that may be an uphill battle. but i think your resources would be better spent in this way than on the weekend. there is an excellent marriage counselor in our town who i would highly recommend (i can give you his name if your interested), although my first choice would be the Harleys.

TheUglyTruth,

My handle might give away my town, but yours gives away a much more sobering picture. I appreciate you reply and agree with your opinion. The only thing that would change that is if someone who attended the weekend could tell me what they thought the chances were of 1 1/2 days opening someone up to try again. I know my proposal is risky, but I really don't know what else to do.

We were seeing a counselor before we seperated, and I thought things were going really well, but was later told that the whole time we were there, she had already decided that she didn't love me and was only doing it for our daughter. Pretty twisted, since the best thing she could have done for our daughter was to be honest with me and tell me what she was feeling or what we could do to fix it. You could give me the name of your therapist. It might help. Anyway, I'm going to wait to see if I get anyone who has been to the seminar to reply. I'll let you know what happens.

thanks again.

Paul

Paul,

I can understand your wanting first-hand opinions of the seminar, but you're really in the best position to know if there is any chance you're wife will come around as a result of it. I'm sure there are many worthwhile activities and ideas that are presented, but its not a "magic bullet". The single most important factor in this, or any other counseling, is the attitude of the people participating.

It sounds like your wife spent a fair amount of time in the counseling that you two did without being open and honest about her feeelings. Basically, she had her mind made up going in, and its highly unlikely things would be any different at the weekend seminar. If you followed your plan, you would then be committed to either agreeing to the divorce or going back on your word to do so. I wouldn't do that.

I can understand your main goal is to just do something to break the negative monentum, get her to look at things differently and give things a chance. The nice thing about the phone counseling with the Harleys is that its very convenient, there is little hassle involved. It might be much easier to get your wife agree to try that, since it really requires little "investment" in her part to at least try it. You don't even have to leave the house or even be in the same location to try it. I also think the ongoing dialogue with the Harleys would have a much better long term chance of success than the weekend seminar.

I hestitate to post the name of the counselor I recommend on a public forum. If you're intersted, I can email his info to you if you give me an address. We tried a number of counselors and he was head and shoulders above the rest.

TUT,

Thanks again fo the reply. The counselor I used was named Elizabeth (Betty) K. Did you work with her? I thought she was really good, but I'm not sure if a better counselor would have figured out that W was not being honest. I even remember at one session saying that even though I thought things were going really well, that I feared we were just a good argument away from square 1. How prophetic. You can email me at pnewman173@yahoo

Thanks

Paul

My stbxw agreed to MC'ing. after two sessions, MC said,"You two have a lot of potential."

We ended up going to a restraunt one evening,with homework from MC, W's attitude was quite obvious the whole time there.
After MC's comment, W's whole attitude changed,, so did her stories.

Her mind was made up before the first session, as her honesty wasn't there. The MC had no clue, yet this MC, after listening to things W had said, MC would turn to me and give/make personal comments directed at me,, to the lies W was saying!!??

In some cases its been known that when the opposing spouse agrees to divorce, it actually has the potential of turning things around, but it also has the possibility of ending in a divorce as well. Its a risk, but again, its been known to work, and it may be worth it,,??
At this point, what do you really have to loose, she already is saying she wants divorced,

A few months ago, i e-mailed my W, informed her she was right, and i agree with her decision we should divorce,,, she responded, "why do i think its over? unless thats what i wanted,,,"

I ended up blowing it though, as i responded to quick, resulted in pushing her away again,, not with any LB'ers, but only with reassurance, and my honesty.

With Retrouvaille, they have a wonderful sucess rate, they are able to save 4 out of 5 marriages, in some cases just over one week-end, where others require up to 12 additional sessions.

In most cases, there generally is an draggee,,
You can say something like this to your W;
Say , "We have been married x number of years. I am asking you to give me one weekend to work at our marriage at a Retrouvaille weekend. If we succeed, that would be wonderful for both us and the kids. If not, we have only lost a weekend. What is the risk?" Adding something like, if we fail, you still want divorce, you're free to go, I love you that much.

If you would like more info,,, here's a link,,
www.marriagesavers.org

Its not that i want to send anyone away from MB, i just know with my W, she had no interest or any desire to talk to any counselor, or anybody over a phone, or involving a keyboard. Her request was face to face, (if she was being honest with this????)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
but I'm not sure if a better counselor would have figured out that W was not being honest. I even remember at one session saying that even though I thought things were going really well, that I feared we were just a good argument away from square 1. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">During our sessions, i remember thinking the same thing,, althouh wondering if i was there for W's honesty to be in check, or to recover our marriage. And thinking, shouldn't this C be able to detect lies,, how can she? she wasn't there? She listened to, and accepted what W had to say.

It was at what ended up being our last session, i brought oit some of the lies from w, by only asking W questions, MC noticed a difference in some of W's responses, and asked W "what are you scared of." By then, maybe it was to late, maybe i should have asked more towards the beginning of ous sessions,,!!??

I actually offended our MC, by asking her questions, i had a one on one session, and she informed me i offended her by asking one paticular question.The question was, "are you familar with projection?" She ended up showing me "all" of her certificates, degrees, adding where she went to school, how long she's been doing this,,,, then she said, "let me tell you something about divorce, there's nothing wrong with it.I've been divorced, and i'm now with my second husband. My children are doing wonderful, they love their step-dad, and he loves them to."

So i shook her hand, apologized for offending her, and said "congratulations, i'm happy for you and yours,, but right now this is about my family, and i feel as though "my" family's future is in your hands.
It was after this, when i also noticed MC would begin sharing her personal thoughts/opinions directed at me,, after W would share her thougths/feelings/problems with our M, including the lies.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Check out these links from one of the most qualified therapists in the country - one who TEACHES marriage and family therapy at the U of MN. He is widely respected in the marriage community and has written many very good books and articles
You need to be an advocate for your marriage. There are many many bad counselors out there with a whole lot of pieces of paper hanging on their walls. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">http://www.smartmarriages.com/badcouples.doherty.html

http://www.smartmarriages.com/hazardous.html


"You need to be an advocate for your marriage. There are many many bad counselors out there with a whole lot of pieces of paper hanging on their walls"

As i think i found one of those,,
to this day my stbx knows i can't agree with her decision to divorce.

I wish the best.


Stephan,
still standing.

paul -

sent you an email

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "let me tell you something about divorce, there's nothing wrong with it.I've been divorced, and i'm now with my second husband. My children are doing wonderful, they love their step-dad, and he loves them to."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! An MC said that !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WishI WereHome:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "let me tell you something about divorce, there's nothing wrong with it.I've been divorced, and i'm now with my second husband. My children are doing wonderful, they love their step-dad, and he loves them to."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! An MC said that ! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't surpise me to hear a counselor say that. Many, many "couples" counselors are not that pro-marriage. Of course there may be times when divorce is the best thing (abuse, etc.), but ending up with one of these counselors who is not strongly pro-marriage can be lethal to one who is trying to save the marriage.

Interjecting one's own opinions and emotions into the interaction is highly unprofessional and unethical of the counselor. Also the "offense" taken at a legitmate question doesn't bode well. Counselors are like any other profession. Some excel, some are mediocre, and some are just plain lousy. People have a tendency to "submit" to the expertise and authourity of a counselor or doctor based solely on their training or degrees. Its important to not just accept what they say as gospel and to find one whose aprroach is consistent with your own values and goals.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "let me tell you something about divorce, there's nothing wrong with it.I've been divorced, and i'm now with my second husband. My children are doing wonderful, they love their step-dad, and he loves them to."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeppers, she actually told me this.

I was also informed how i offended her by asking,
This day she said this, was actually quite interesting.
We had had a one on one session, eventually she interrupted me, telling me how i offended her, how she knew from that moment there's something she needs to do, so she went into her "speech," when i would try to talk, she'd interupt me again saying "NO, You listen,," she did this about four times.

Which was why i decided to give her the congrats, shake her hand,,,

At the end of this session, she informed me "she" was the expert here,,"she" had the training,,"she,,,"

I asked if she was familar with MB, or Dr. Willard Harley, she said those sites on the internet are all the same,,,not good.

I'd mention something about research, or stats, for marriages, divorces, impact in children,, MC would inform me that "anybody" can change these, to their benefit.

I'm not sure if anyone has any familarity with Retrouvaille seminars,, this to MC shot down, saying they are only "saying" what they say, only to make money.

During the ending of our fifth session, i said, "i'm really just a big teddy bear, who ne,,"at this time i was interupting by, my best buddy-ette, the MC, as she was quick to say, "You're not a teddy bear!"

When W began talking about the time she thought i was a big flirt,
I shared the fact how i ended up asking those around me, if i was leaving this impression to, or with them, how i also asked others outside of my area,, adding i was in management, and that would be jeopardizing my position,,,
MC spoke her opinion. Stating how that was wrong! of me to do. WHich my W also chimed right in, and they were both telling me what they thought,,,

I was more concerned about my W in all aspects. I also let her know that nothing what-so-ever was mentioned about my W thinking i was a flirt to anybody. I then shared with MC, for my W, i even began taking my breaks alone, and outside, for my W.

MC then said "oh."

It really was quite interesting with this MC,,

Often whenever i'd speak of any positive, either my W or the MC would have somehting to say. whenever I would respond to anything said, I'd hear how i don't always have to have an opinion.

MC asked me if i felt like she was attacking me, i replied,"it appears this way often, but i don't know." Adding I won't speak from my "feelings" i'll only speak realistical, and logical.

These sessions with her, really was quite interesting,, the last two sessions i was actually discouraged!

Today is my first day since March, that I'm no longer considered an criminal in our Justice system!!!
I requested the courts terminate the PPO, and the Judge did!!! It felt G R E A T !

Now maybe i can get another job,,as i try to keepo smiling, cuz life's too short to be sooo serious!


stephan, still standing!
www.rejoiceministries.org

wow. those are some stories! i spoke to Penny Tupy today from saveyourmarriagecentral.com. She also does work with the MB semianr follow-ups I think. I liked her. She sounded like she had confidence in my situation and told me to just get my W on the phone with her. I asked if she actually thought there was hope and she said absolutely. I sure don't think so, but I'm dazed and confused. I'm thinking of trying to find a way to get W to talk. Still don't know how to do that.

Any advice? Anyone know Penny Tupy?