My wife has decided that she was not sure whether or not she loves me any more and wants to separate. I know she still loves me, we just overdrew our Love Bank Accounts. I am trying to apply reverse psychology and am being happy and helpful for her. I’ve been doing my best in making deposits into her Love Bank and she told me today that she enjoys spending time w/me when we are just friends. Does that mean I will never win her romantically, intimately anymore? Has anyone tried reverse psychology? Did it work?

There is a post in the Negotiating form on divorse busting 180, I recomend you check iy out.

I wouldn't say that you are using "Reverse Psycology" as much as you are Avoiding love Busters.
If you whine, cry, and beg, It will just push her further away.

When you first met your W did you win her romantically, intimately right away? I'll bet that you were friends first.

Hmmmm forgive me for being suspicious but your W's desire for separation and saying she enjoys time spending with you as 'just friends' sounds very similar to a spouse having an affair. Are you absolutely, positively sure that she isn't having an affair?

ASAP,
Hope you don't mind, I pulled this from your other post. I think it will help answer TMCM's question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ASAP6's story
Me and my wife have been married for almost three years now. We have a beatiful baby girl who is 17 months old. About two months ago, I found out that she had an "Internet Friend", who she is very interested in. I confronted her several times; she had promised to quit but never did. So, a couple of days ago, she said she wanted to separate as she was not sure whether or not she loved me anymore. We've been having some problems (I did not think they were serious, dumb me) for some time now. I think they started when she got pregnant and quit her job and school (she was working part-time and going to school at the time). We've been going back and forth with this “separation thing to sort things out”. She usually suggests it and I talk her out of it. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a book "Relationship Rescue" by Dr. Phil. We both acknowledged that we were having problems and needed to work on them (now, I know that we have not been meeting each other's emotional needs. I was actually feeling somewhat ok, but now I understand how she must have felt). Every time we'd have an argument, I would convince her that yes, we have problems, but everything can be worked out and we just need to work on it. Plus, look at great me trying to improve myself and our relationship by reading this book; just give it a chance, baby and we have to be patient. After we've decided that we were going to separate, I begged her to please give it one more chance every day and night. And then I started reading things up on the Internet, came across this site (excellent site) and realized that what I've been doing was not right. I need to support her, be happy with her, help her, meet her emotional needs, etc. So, I went and talked to her and told her that yes, I understood how she felt and that separation would be a good idea. She is currently still staying in our home and is looking for an apartment to rent. I've found a bunch of ads for her and suggested that we go look at some apartments together tonight (I am also planning on having somebody watch our daughter, so we can hopefully get some quality time alone). I am having second thoughts and am afraid that by helping her with this separation, I will just grow into nothing more than a friend, that she will continue her relationship with the "Internet Friend" (at this point she is refusing to stop talking to him) and that there will be no chance of me winning her in a romantic, loving, intimate way. She is also not willing to try and reconcile anymore. Says, wants to figure herself out prior to us trying to reconcile our relationship (she is not sure if she will ever want to try to reconcile in the future). What should I do? Should I ignore the fact that she is still in a relationship w/the Internet Friend. Should I be helping her unconditionally and trying to meet her needs in hopes of her coming back? Should I talk to her about our relationship, possibility of reconciliation, etc.? Or should I just pretend to be a good friend who is happy to help and ignore the separation thing and the way I feel. I love her to death with all my heart and do not want separation. I believe that we can work everything out. Thanks a million. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Thanks WIWH. After I finished my post I went and searched assap's previous posts and found that particular one which confirmed my suspicions. I have written him another post on the thread where he posted that message. I hope it helps him.

TMCM
I hope it helps me as well. I'm not much different than ASAP and your line of advice is what I've been trying to follow.(Divorce Busting Principles)

Your post was a good reminder to me of how I should be acting.

Thanks everyone for your replys. I've read the post on Divorce Busting 180. I've come that list of 34 things to do a couple of days ago and have been following it. It seems to be working as she is now much more (then during our marriage) inclined to talk to me about her problems, says feels good being w/me, but still wants to take time off to figure herself out.

We have a wonderful 17 months old baby girl, who she is leaving w/me. I've always provided for her, which means she does not have a job and is still staying in our home w/me and our baby as she cannot afford to rent an apartment. I arranged for a babysitter last night, took her out to look at the apartments, we found one, but she does not have any money to rent it. Anyway, we had a great time, even stopped by a romantic restaurant and had dinner together. Man, that felt good. It felt like we were reconnecting and falling in love all over again last night. She even said she wanted to cuddle with me.

All the good feelings came crashing when we came home. She told me she felt that it was my responsibility to support her and pay for the apartment we liked. Well, i would love to if I had a ton of money, which I do not. She has always bad spending habits and got us so much into credit card debt, that it will take me quite some time to pay it off. I am making enough money, however with new expenses, such as full-time daycare, coming into the budget, there is no way I can afford to pay for it. I said I am sorry I cannot afford to support you. All she said was "why don't you go get a loan?" I am sure I could as my credit is perfect, i have some investment properties, which I could borrow against or I could even take out an unsecured loan. Does this sound like my plan is working? or is she starting to hate me all over again for not being there for her when she needs me?

I am sure there are people out there who are in situations much worse then mine and have been there for quite some time (it has only been 5 days for me). But it is so hard knowing that she still is talking to her "internet lover" (they don't just type anymore. they now have webcams and mics for live audio and video), talking about sex, showing things on the webcams. after finding the list of 34 things i realized that i did not need to spy on her anymore (i had a spy software installed on the computer after I learned of the affair) as she is going to do what she wants and if i know, see, read that'll just make me feel bad. I have been feeling better not knowing.

After telling me she decided to separate, she spent two days in bars and had to tell me all about it. How all the guys were all over her (and she liked that physical contact), how men were sticking money in her pants watching her dance, how she was making out with her best girlfriend, etc. I know I need not to think about it, but it hurts like he!!.

I know I am on somewhat right track, because I do not think anything else will help and if it does not work out, i'll just be better for myself at the end. However, if this stuff does not work, I do not want to waste time on her anymore and move on. It'll hurt again if we do not reconcile and do not get together. I so much would love a closure to all this. I think I can get myself healed rather quickly and proceed w/my life because I need to be happy for my daughter. Talked to some counselors here (they are expensive and unfortunately my insurance does not cover it), but am not finding the right one. Need reassurance that it's worth waiting, trying, not giving up. Read some success stories on MB, but how often does that happen - 1 out of 1000 cases?

Appreciate your help. I find this site more soothing and comforting than any counselor I talked to so far.

assap I hope you don't mind if I re-post my post on your other thread for I beleive it would do you good to re-read it over and over again.

1) Act Happy. Be as cheerful as possible. Be positive. Put on this behavior when you have contact with your W. Prepare yourself to act this way. Practice if need be. Be an actor if need be. Fake it, if you must. Fake it til you truly do get to the point where you experience your life as positive (It really is, you know!). Remember that there are millions of people out there who are worse off than you are at this moment and who would trade places with you in a second.


2) Get a life. Rekindle old hobbies or interests that you have discarded but still interest you. Try out new hobbies or interests. It is therapeutic.

3) Focus on 4 key words. Every day, every hour and every minute if need be, plaster your mind with these 4 life-saving words: I WILL MAKE IT! This becomes your mantra. Wake up with it. Put it on your mirror. Eat lunch with it. Go to sleep with it. Convey in every which way to your W that you WILL MAKE IT. Say, "I will make it! I prefer to make it with you (if that is what you REALLY want), but if that doesn’t happen, I will make it without you. Either way, I want you to know that I will make it." State with erect, confident body language, unblinking, direct eye contact and calm, firm, consistent tone of voice.

4) To-the-point small talk. Make conversations with your W brief and
to the point. Talk only about the solutions to specific problems that need to be addressed, such a particular bills, household or children concerns. Let silence prevail if she wants to "hook" you into melodrama. Politely but firmly end such conversations.

5) Tend to agree. Try to find the kernal of truth in what your W is saying and agree with it. Acknowledge it. If she says "I don’t love you anymore.", you say to her "It certainly seems that way. Thank you for your truthfulness.". If she says "I’m not sure what I want." You say "Yes, it must be confusing for you." If she tells you "I’m thinking of moving out." You say "Do you have an idea of when you’re going to do that? Knowing would help me plan for my activites."

6) Expand your social relationships, including those of the OPPOSITE SEX. Make new friends. Go to lunch. Surround yourself with interesting people who have the potential to care about you. Rekindle old friendships that have faded. With the opposite sex? Yes! I’m not talking about a revenge affair or sleeping with somone. I’m not talking about dating. I’m talking about being friends and learning
about you and how you relate, especially to those of the opposite sex.

7) Get sexy – in a healthy way. Get in shape. Lose weight. Run. Walk. Exercise. Eat right. Enjoy your body. Take supplements. Take extreme care of your body. Begin to feel healthy…and healthy is sexy.

Do not use these strategies as a manipulative tool to change what your spouse is doing. She will pick up on your motive and see through it. She will easily manipulate you back to where
he/she wants you (whereever that was to make you predictable and controllable). You engage in these exercises and strategies because you want to for you. You know that this is the best way to live and at this point, be in relationship with your spouse. This is the best way for you to survive and retain integrity. Here’s the kicker. A by-product of these efforts is usually dramatic changes on the part of your spouse. Don’t be surprised if he/she moves closer. Don’t be surprised if she does a double-take. Don’t be surprised if she decides to 'work on the marriage.' But, don’t expect it!

Even if your marriage does not survive, the above strategies are for YOUR benefit and will make you an extremely attractive man for another woman worthy of your love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> assap I hope you don't mind if I re-post my post on your other thread for I beleive it would do you good to re-read it over and over again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I may print it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know I know CoffeeMan. I've read and re-read that post a couple of times. I know the keyword is "don't expect it". But, like any other human I want some kind of a closure. It's either yes, we are going to work on a relationship or no it's over, move on. I believe I could get over her and move on with my life and develop a relationship some time in the future (not any time soon though). But how can you if you still have that hope for the relationship you are in now (I guess that phrase comes into play again "don't expect"). So, am I supposed to go about my life assuming that it will not work out? Don't mean to be annoying, but it is just all too new and risky and hard to believe/trust in for me. There is a constant need for reassurance. Maybe that'll go away w/time. I made up a list of valuable things I found on the site (like the 34 things to do and a summary of the post you re-posted and some other stuff I picked up), my personal mission statement to remind me why I am doing what I am doing, and am carrying it in my wallet and every time i have doubts about my behavior I just re-read it.

Greatly appreciate all your posts. They are of great assistance.

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: SonofWF ]</small>

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: SonofWF ]</small>

Assap6

IMHO, you should not fund your Ws separation. She should get a job and pay for her living expenses just like anyone else. I definitely would not borrow money to help her have a PA.

You should probably talk to an attorney about a legal separation and custody of the baby. She doesn’t need to know about this but you ought to checkout your options in case she moves out.

A Mother that is willing to walk away from her infant baby is deep in the "fog" of an affair.

Have you told anyone about her Internet affair? If not then talk to people that are close to you (Mom, Dad, In-Laws, Sisters, Brothers, friends) that will talk to her about reconciling the marriage. They must not put her down or be disrespectful but instead encourage her to work on the problems in the marriage.

Good Luck

Beau

assap6 consider setting an time limit (unanounced to her of course) in which you will file for divorce if she does not commit to end her affair with the OM and do her share of rebuilding the marriage. For example, lets say that 6 months from now she is still involved with the OM, by that time your love for her will be practically gone and you will more than likely be able to divorce her without much emotional toll on you. Also, you can start preparing yourself by seeking legal counsel so that if and when the time does come to divorce her, you will be ready.

SonofWF:

She is in a lot of trouble I know that. She had talked to me the next after announcing separation and asked me not to tell anybody about our problems or her affair. I thought it would be good for our baby, because if you tell people, they will eventually tell everybody and my baby would find out. And I do not want to hate her mother no matter how bad the mother can be. I held on for two days and then I said screw that. All of her close relatives (mother, who by the way did the same thing she is doing now twice in her life. had two marriages with kids, cheated on both of her husbands and walked away. Father, grandparents, sisters, uncles, aunts, etc.) are not supporting her and telling her she is making a mistake and should be reconciling for the sake of the baby if nothing else. No, she's got her mind set in concrete.

That's a great advice on talking to an attorney. I did not think I need to, because so far we agreed on all the property and the baby. I guess, she can always change her mind down the road.

CoffeeMan:

I have thought about setting a time limit and then filing for a divorce. But I do not want to because I want to make sure I've given her every chance and time that she needs. Otherwise I am just not going to be able to look into my daughter's eyes when she grows up and tell her, yep, me and your mother separated and I was not concerned enough about you to do everything within my power to reconcile and to provide you with a happy and healthy family/environment.

The other complication is that I am from Russia. Came to Alaska as a student and was going to go back to Russia after graduating. Well, then I met her and decided to stay. Not all of my paperwork has been finalized and if we (me or her) file I will be deported to Russia. I kind of want to go to Russia and start my life over, but if I do I am taking my baby with me and that's not right. She needs her mother no matter what.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that she will come to her senses soon while Yana (my baby) is still young enough to not remember that it had happened. And I can see that she is confused and can see all of our problems. She has been such an independent baby ever since she was born and now she is very needy, wants a lot of attention, etc. I also feel that she is giving me the emotional support, not by mistake but on purpose. I will be acting happy and she is happy. As soon as I have a bad thought cross my mind, she comes up to me, gives me a kiss, a hug, and pats me on the back. And she is only 17 months old!!! I am so sorry to her for all the things she has to go through because of us stupid adults.

SonofWF:

about the financial thing. She is a Bahai and there is this law in her religion that before a divorce can be granted, a couple has to go through a "Year of Patience". There is a bunch of rules and guidelines for it, but the basic idea is partners establish two separate households and work on reconciling their relationship for one full year. If you break certain rules/guidelines, the year starts over. I am not a Bahai but I believe in the idea and like the rules they have (one of them is no dating or any kind of affairs, which is one of the reasons i do not think she will be able to complete it). So i suggested it to her, she did not agree, but brought it up last night, when talking about me supporting her. One of the rules for "Year of Patience" has to support the wife financially. however, she missed the point that it says unless wife had an affair. I felt so bad for bringing that up, but I did and still think I should not have...Anyway, that's the scoop. I don't think I will support her financially, but I do not want to make the separation too hard for her. There is no way she will be able to find a job to support herself and am afraid she will end up being evicted from the apartment in a couple of months (which will affect me also, since she is using my credit, income, etc. on the application to qualify for it). Once she hits the financial bottom, even if she does feel like reconciling the relationship some time in the future, she'll just tell herself, it is not because I love him, it is because I need his financial support. Time will show I guess.

Sergey

Assap6

You were correct to mention the affair. If you had not mentioned the affair your W would have tried to get you to support her having an apartment and screwing around. Your W is doing exactly as she was taught by her mother’s example. Her mother walked away and what makes you think that W is any different? Your W is worst than her mother in that she is willing to walk away from her child!

I would suggest that you contact an attorney and investigate your options in a legal separation or divorce. The child is an American citizen and if you have custody it is unlikely that you will be deported. However, I am not a lawyer and you need to speak to an attorney to understand your options.

Beau

you know you make a lot of sense. i keep going back and forth between being there for her and trying to reconcile and all that and just saying whatever this relationship i'll just become a better man/romantic partner/future husband/etc. and move on with my life, reconcile myself and start a new relationship when i am ready. I know i am a great guy (nobody's perfect of course) and she is lucky to have me, but there is still a lot of love for her and i know she has a lot of love for me too. she's just way too confused in her head right now, but she is extremely smart when it comes to relationships and people in general (don't know why she is not applying her knowledge to this relationship though) and I still have not lost faith in her. I still believe (or hope do not know which one it really is) that she will come to her senses soon.

but, being smart does mean staying one step ahead in the game. there is a possibility of a fight in the future if I want to be ahead in this game, I need to know my options now so I can start preparing for it. But, I soooooooo much do not want to fight the love of my life. i still do love her a lot and that is the fact.

Assap6

Your W is confused and is making poor decisions because she is caught up in an emotional affair with this Internet guy. What kind of a person has a long distance affair on the Internet and then wants to dump their husband and infant child? Has she actually seen this person or had sex with him?

She is not acting very smart about relationships. The only way for her to want to reconcile the marriage is to have NO CONTACT with the Internet guy. She has refused - so you need to make plans to move on or at least make her think you are moving on. You don’t have to tell anybody what you are doing. Follow TMCM suggestions on how to act around W. Also, contact an attorney so that you will know your legal rights. This is the best approach to help her change her mind and come out of the “fog.” Once the “fog” begins to lift she will begin to think rationally and will see what she is about to loose.

Beau

thanks for what you said. she had seen him. she met him on the yahoo messenger and then one day it just quit working for some reason. i swear i had nothing to do with it. so, she went out and bought a new computer and called it a X-mas present for me. Along with the computer came a webcam. there was no physical sex, but there was some virtual sex though.

It all started with her spending too much time on the computer. I became suspicious and turned the "archving" on on the messenger (we shared all the passwords, etc. so that was not a problem). the next day i checked the archive and oh my god. it was a full blown affair. at that point i wanted to get more information. i installed one of those spy softwares on the computer to find out what she was up to. before i knew about the affair, she was telling me that one of her long-time dreams was to take a vacation with a friend and that she really wanted to see london. did not pay too much attention to it at the time, but did say that i do not believe in separate vacations and that i would like to come too. she said it had to be with a friend not a husband. then i came across a list of goals that she had created some years back and guess what "vacation with a friend" was on there, but it was checked as accomplished. so, i confronted her about it. she said it did not count because she checked it when her and i went to florida while dating, but now we were married, so that invalidated the satisfaction of the goal. but, anyway after installing the software, i found out that HE was in London and that she has been looking for airline tickets and hotels in London. She was fully planning the trip and not caring that i was so much against it. later on i found out that one of her girlfriends that she wanted to go with has had an internet lover for quite some time now (i think that's where she got an idea to get on the messenger) and that her lover was somewhere near London. WHAT A COINCIDENCE!!!

Well, when I had enough facts to confront her (I gave it a couple days to collect enough info.), I compiled a Word document with their conversations, placed it on the desktop, wrote her a note and walked out before she had a chance to read it. When i came back, she was pissed off at me for spying on her. Anyway, we had a little fight and then talked and agreed that it had to come to an end. She had promised to never ever contact him again. We've been going back and forth with it for about two months now. I kept monitoring the computer and would confront her about once a week. she'd make a bunch of "sincere" promises, keep them for a day and then go back to her friend. then finally one day after a fight and promises the previous day I came home just to find out that she has been on the internet with him. I packed my bags, wrote her a letter saying that i was tired of trying and that i did not want the relationship anymore. as i was getting ready to walk out the door she came home and said "if you would've waited for me to come i would've told you that i decided to end this relationship".

The next day I wrote her an email saying that i will be coming home and that she needed to leave, that she could take whatever she wanted except for the baby. i did come home and she did leave. that was last friday. like i told you in some previous posts she spent the weekend drunk making a lot of mistakes. she made sure to come home every night and tell me about it. i told her i did not care what she did and that i loved her, missed and that we should give it another chance. guess what that did not work. that's when i seriously started looking on the internet for all the help i could find. i find MB the best so far.

After the weekend she said she did not have a place to stay and that she would like to stay with me as a roommate and sleep on the couch in the living room. so, that's where we are right now.

she is still planning on going to london and meeting him. what hurts a lot is that the guy is 10 older than she is, does not have a job, has not had a girlfriend for over a year (he told her in one of the chats that he celebrated his "no girlfriend" anniversary.), does not have a place to live (he told her he moved from friend to friend seven times in the last two months), etc. THE BIGGEST LOSER EVER.

I found a good story on saveyourmarriagecentral.com about a couple where the wife had an affair with a coworker. So the guy did what's described in Plan B on MB. She had turned around eventually and they worked things out. The first condition was no contact whatsoever. So the girl, quit her job, wrote the lover (x-lover at this point) a letter (they actually wrote it together and took it to the mailbox together) telling him she was going to reconcile her marriage and that please never contact her again. That will be one of my conditions. Instead of retelling the story, you can read it here

http://www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com/images/Recovery_A_Story_art..doc

I am going to do the exact same thing if she ever turns around.

thanks for your advice. i'll think about it some more. what's your story if you don't mind me asking?