My W says she doesnt love me anymore. She says she realy wants a separation. She tells me that she cannot stand the sound of my voice because I have let here down too many times. She is unwilling to work on our relationship but says that we will date if I leave the house. I have working Plan A for 10 days now with no little movement in her reponses. She will be leaving to go on a retreat in the mountains this weekend she says alone????? I really cannotafford to leave and have no place to go and pay all of the household bills. She says she will never be happy with me and that it has been over for a while now. Other issues working against me is the in-laws. She is close with her family but I felt that they were over too often. It's not that I mind them being here its just that I feel there should be some boundaries. I don't want my home to be open access to her siblings and their friends. I have spoken to her about this and she has taken this to the extreme that I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> trying to prevent her from seeing her family. Not true. I feel that if she is soooo unhappy why doesn't she leave? Is plan B next best thing to do?

Don't you dare leave. If she is the one that says she doesn't love you anymore and wants a separation, then let her leave if she wants to. You also shouldn't leave since you can't afford to. Don't make this easy for her, that's not part of plan A in my opinion.

Also, don't count on the dating while separated thing. It sure didn't happen with my H once I moved out. As some people say, separation by living in separate dwellings is the first step to the destruction of the marriage. If I could go back in time, I'd refuse to leave, and in doing so, prevent my H from easily spending so much of his time with his female "friends". See if you can talk her into moving into the basement or another bedroom for now.

Is plan B the next best thing to do? Well, is she having an affair? Is there an OM that you want her to leave? (That's the point of a plan B letter is it not?)

My heart goes out to you. It sounds like she just isn't hearing you at all.

Take care,

Jen

Keep working plan A and make sure you're good at it. 10 days is not a long time. Be understanding to her issues but don't agree if you don't feel you should.

W asked me to leave and I did becouse of kids. If not for them, She would have had to leave. My staying would have just been the LB of all LB's

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have let here down too many times </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How have you let her down?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She will be leaving to go on a retreat in the mountains this weekend she says alone????? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you know about this retreat?

Do you have any reason to believe that she will not be going alone?


What kind

My sad story is posted under Ruined it all in this forum. I have taken the appropriate steps to remedy my personal issues and commited to do so moving forward. Her retreat as she explains is her going to a cabin in the mountains to think and be alone or at least that is what she said.
She is spoiled rotten.(she admits that) Her daddy of little means has never said no to anything and she believes that she should be a "kept" woman. I have given her a lot over the years - Cars, homes, vacations but I could never get her to be a responsible stewart of what has been provided.
Jen - thanks for the encouraging words of advice

WIWH - Am I LB'ing by not giving her what she wants at the moment. I am concerned about the children, house and bills-She is irresponsible and has no home management skills or just depressed (16yrs without addressing this???)

<small>[ January 13, 2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: meytonb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I LB'ing by not giving her what she wants at the moment. I am concerned about the children </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How would her leaving affect your children. Would this turn their lives upsidedown. Me leaving made it a little easier on them because they have their space in their house with their mother who has always been there . I am at work 5-7 days a weem. It was hard but I knew it was the right thing to do.

How will she see it if you don't leave. Will she resent you for it or respect you for standing your ground and not wanting to give up. Could be a LB maybe not . That is for you to determine

Their lives would not be upside-down, at least I don't think. I spend a fair amount of time teachng my kids things and take them out often. My W is more of a "good time" person and loves the benfits but accepts no responsibility,what i call substance. I am sure I can work something out with my job(telecommute) if I need to. I will ask her to see how she feels about me not leaving.

Meyton,
Are you working with a coach? Steve Harley told me almost never recommends the man stay in the house and force the woman to leave. In part because of the children and in part because the “home” is still mostly the woman’s. She usually is the primary provider of domestic support: creating a warm welcoming environment.

So, before you force her to leave, get some professional advice. One thing I really like is Lee Raffel’s Controlled Separation. You can implement a controlled separation in conjunction with Plan A. A controlled separation is a negotiated contract. In it everything is discussed and decided upon by the couple including the date of separation, the length of separation, where people will live, what they’ll take, financial arrangements for the duration of the separation, child custody, Dating both your spouse, and if you will date others, what you will tell friends and family. The negotiation of the contract is part of the therapy. And a great way to practice POJA. I like it because it gives a time limit and gets all the cards on the table. Also, Dr. Raffel insists that both parties agree not to contact a lawyer for the duration of the separation. If you’re interested, get her book “Should I Stay or Should I Go: How a Controlled Separation can save your marriage.”

One other word, 10 days is not enough time to demonstrate lasting change. Especially if she’s at the point where she can’t stand the sound of your voice at all. Another key thing to remember is that in Plan A you are demonstrating that you can protect her even from your worst self and that you can care for her meeting her ENs. But, at the bare minimum, you must demonstrate that you are as concerned about her well being as your own.

If you seriously want to be happily married to your wife, than I would open a dialog with her about how you can separate effectively without undue financial strain on the family. And I’d make sure I had an experienced, competent coach to guide me through this.

And as for irresponsibility... your wife may get over that one real quickly when she's on her own!

And no not giving her what she wants immediately is not an LB. Sometimes we have to say no. But, consider how you can show her you care for her as for your own self, and consider the long-term best interests of the marraige.

It is possible that a thought-out, planned separation could help your marriage. But, her running out of the house screekming will not

Greengables- thanks for the solid advice. I am actively looking for a pro-marriage counselor and think I have found one today. I am not sure about the irresponsibilty - here comes daddy! She will be taken care of by her parents with nearly no possibilty of knowing what it is truly like on her own. I am sure however that they will soon get tired of having 5 other people living with them for an extended period of time but if that happens I will simply wish them well. I want to show her I genuinely do care about her but she is still at the point of hopelessness,anger and resentment. I am not able to meet any of her needs, this is what she is telling me. I will get the book you reccommended and see if she is willing to go along with a plan. Planning is something she does not do well with, she prefers open ended situations so as not to be accountable for the end results.

<small>[ January 13, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: meytonb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not able to meet any of her needs, this is what she is telling me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you know what her needs are?

If you do then You will know if you are meeting them and in time she may start to see that.

Remember, she's very fogged in right now and will see no good in you until she realizes that this is all she can see in you.

Also rememer that she will always be able to find something negative, regardless of what you do. So be carefull how you act, what you do and what you say. When she finds the negative, just say to your self that the fog is causing it and keep a positive attitude. No LB'ing

I know something about people who don’t like responsibility and hate the very word “plan.” But I think you have a good shot at this because this is what she wants and serves her immediate self-interest as well as your own long-term best interests.

Hang in there. Don’t let what she says get you down yet. And remember one key point when you get really angry, frustrated and fed up. You aren’t doing this just for her. You are doing this because your key values dictate that you give everything you have to make this marriage work even if she’s telling you there’s no way.

And then too, she so withdrawn she can’t see the possibility of falling back in love with you. This is normal. Typical even. And it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans at this point.

I myself had a very withdrawn spouse. To this day, I’m not 100% sure he didn’t have a brief period of wandering. He spent two weeks checking absorbed in web sites for call girls once! Plan A brought him out of withdrawal. It made him happy. He felt love for me again.

So, why am I getting a divorce? Because even though he loved me again, he did nothing to change, was unwilling to change, and therefore my own lovebank was emptied and well into the negative. Eventually it does take two to make a marriage work. But first you have to prove to her that it’s in her best interest to be happily married to you. And that it’s possible.

WIWH - We have used the needs questionaire and have gone over them together. I am aware of her needs 1 and 2 (admiration and affection) -How can I deliver on these when she is shutting me out?

GG -I hear what you are saying however my spouse has never been one to make a house a home. Brief periods of "trying"- I too need a pattern of consistent and genuine behavior. I will continue to work Plan A -good opp as her b-day is tomorrow and keep a postive attitude, however she is quite immature and weary of having me around. Although my spouse is fun for the kids in the long run I think the fun will stop as they get older and they will not have the character foundation needed to deal with the issues of life - root caues of some of my own issues. Knowing the immediate alternatives with respect to my children I still believe that she should be the one to leave. I can provide care for them until I come home or telecommute to complete my work schedule.
Background, We married young W(19),Me (21). She did not have a chance to find out who she was or "sow her oats" as it may. I had been in the Military and lived on my own when I met her. I am sure this is an underlying attribute thus I am not sure if she will ever see her role in what has happened.

M, are you sure you want it to work? It sounds like BOTH of you are pretty withdrawn. You don’t have much faith in her, or at least you don’t express it.

GG - I very much want us to be together for life! Nothing would please me more. I have been talking to her when she allows but she repeats over and over that she has no faith that it will work out because "we are too different".

Okay then. For now, how about you reframing the judgments that she’s irresponsible and immature? How about “She’s makes some choices I disagree with, some of her values are different than mine as is shown by her choices,” and “She young at heart,” or “She’s inexperienced in some areas of life.” You can always go back to irresponsible and immature when you’re ready for divorce. In the meantime, you’ll have a leg up on avoiding the dreaded “Disrespectful Judgments” love buster.

Sometimes, I think these do more long-term damage to relationships than anything else. They’re so innocuous. Eye-rolling can be a DJ. Heavy sighs. A total dismissal of a spouse’s opinion can be perceived as a DJ. Our spouses know how to read us. They know when we really do mean that was the dumbest thing we ever heard. They hear the disrespect underneath a joke. They feel it. We all just like to believe otherwise.

So, what LBs have you been guilty of? And what steps have you taken to ensure you don’t do them again? Remember, this has little or nothing to do with whether or not she feels any hope. It has to do with you feeling hope. One person can save a marriage sometimes.

Has your wife read the Policy of Joint Agreement? This ensures you do not become too different. Since you were both married young, it could be you are mismatched. But, I wouldn’t accept that without a lot of work on both people’s part. If you really struggle day in and day out to find solutions that make you both happy, then maybe you are too different. But, I won’t buy that now.

Where does she see the differences?

GG - It is true that I am guilty of many LB's. You name it I have done it. I guess I thought I would "straigten her out". What kind of fool am I? Since all of this has happened so recently I have dropped several things I know she has a problem with and have been diligently working a Plan A. She has found my postings on this forum and said that she is hurt by what I have let the world know about us and that I made her seem incapable of taking care of the kids. Another withdrawl from the bank. I was angry the other day and should use softer language when describing my thoughts concerning her. I want to apologize for that.

I read the letter written to doctor Laura and I will take the advice from it from this day forward. We are going to work on a plan and I will encourage her to work out a POJA with me and will keep work at it and continue with Plan A. I don't think that we are mismatched for one another- we really need to learn how to communicate with each other. This is soooo hard for me but I know there is hope but much work is needed form both of us.

I made another mistake by saying that she should be the one to leave. I really felt selfish when I said that and really don't want that to happen.

???

<small>[ January 15, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: meytonb ]</small>