After 4 years of marriage, my wife came home one day and said she had been unhappy with the marriage for a while. This was the first time she revealed her unhappiness to me. She always acted positive and happy. She said that was all a show. She said I had been neglecting her for a long time and didn't feel important to me anymore. She said she wasn't in love with me anymore. I was devastated and started reflecting back on times. I started seeing alot of mistakes I had made throughout the marriage that I hadn't seen before. I realized I had been neglecting her and hadn't given her the love, and attention she deserved.

She said she needed some time to think about things and had to figure out what she wanted to do. I was in panick mode and begged for even 5 minutes of her time. She only would get more angry at me when I tried to reason with her and tell her I loved her. She said she needed space and started going out every night. Said she was going to a girlfriends house. Later I found out she had been going to a guy friend's house who was also going through a divorce. She worked with this guy every day and started spending time with him every night. I had suspiciouns and would ask her if she was seeing him outside of work. She denied it countless times. Several weeks later, I came home to find him over at my apartment eating dinner with him and our 2 young daughters.

That's when I knew she had been lying to me and that crushed me. She asked me for a divorce that night and told me I didn't have any say with who she hung out with. She denied any wrong doing with this guy and told me they were just friends. A couple of months later she revealed that she had been having an affair with this guy since the time we seperated. She said she loved him and that he gave her the time and attention that I didn't give to her.

I begged her to come back and tried to convince her that I loved her more than anything but she wouldn't listen. She pursued the divorce in full force and there wasn't anything I could do about it. She showed no signs of remorse or care for my feelings or for our daughters feelings. It tore my heart out.

Then, a week before the divorce, she came over crying one day and said she didn't think she could ever be happy without us being back together again and being a family again. I was shocked. She was still dating this guy at the time and he didn't know anything about her coming over. My heart had been torn out so I told her I needed some time to think it over. A few hours later she called and said forget it, and that she only wanted to be with the kids more and that was the reason she wanted me back in her life. She said she was in love with someone else. I was heart broken again. The divorce was final in April/2003.

2 months she informed me she was marrying this guy in a month. Again, I was stunned and hurt. I still loved her so much. A week later, she said she changed her mind and that marrying was just too soon and too big a step. Shortly after she started calling me again and asking if I wanted to work it out. I was overwhelmed with joy. She dumped this other guy and we started hanging out again and just talking. 3 weeks later, she called it quits saying she didn't feel anything for me and was in love with this other guy. My heart was stomped on again.

A week later she changed her mind again and said this time was for real and she really wanted to work things out. She wrote me a 14 page letter opening her heart to me and saying she wanted to be married again to me someday. We began dating again in mid-July of 2003. It went great. She revealed some things to me at that point, saying she never wanted the divorce. She said she always considered me her husband and no one would ever be able to fill that role. She admitted the affair was the main reason for the divorce. I moved in with her in late August. I made many changes and gave her all of my time, attention, and many compliments. But it wasn't enough. In early November, she said she didn't ever think she would feel secure enough with me to be in a relationship with me. She told me the main reason she invited me back into her life was so she could be with our daughters more and be a full time mom again, with the hope that her and I could rebuild our relationship. Later I found out from our pastor that she convinced herself that I didn't love her anymore. So she called it quits on me because of her fear that I would call it quits on her. I was devastated again. She suggested we be roomates, sleep in seperate beds and see how that goes. 4 days later she asked me to move out. After I moved out, she started seeing this other guy again. Now, relationship and family are broken up again and I'm devastated. Our daugthers(2 and 4yrs) are so confused having 2 homes again.

I don't know if I can ever trust this woman again. In looking back, I made more mistakes and now am blaming myself for everything. I realize that I put the physical part of our relationship over everything and we jumped into sex way too quickly. She got hurt by that, said she wasn't ready for it, and blames me for asking her for sex at times. She initiated sex several times and she said that was because she thought she was doing something good for our relationship and wanted to please me. Now she resents me for wanting sex. I told her I love her and wanted to show her that love. How is that wrong? She also said she doesn't feel anything for me anymore.

Also, I had major trouble letting go of the affair she had and all the flip flopping between me and this other guy. I feared that she would give up again on me mid-way and go back to this guy and that's exactly what happened. I realize now that I was in a paranoid state the whole time we were together. And that created problems for her and I. I realize now that I think she was insecure with me, b/c I was so insecure with her. When we're around each other, our self-worth was very low because of rejecting one antoher and from the pain we've caused each other in the past. Now I'm blaming myself for not trusting her because she didn't do anything to give me a reason not to trust her during the reconcillation. I'm upset with myself for not relaxing more and just enjoying our time together. Is it normal for me to have those trust issues? Maybe something is wrong with me.

Last time we talked she said she doesn't want to work things out. Right away she's jumped the fence again and with this other guy. I miss her and love her so much. She means everything to me. I realize also that I never took the time to tell her how in love I am with her and what an amazing person she is. I was too busy dwelling on the mistakes she made in the past and couldn't get over that, at least not within a couple of months time.

We did things during the reconcilliation that we just didn't do when we were married.....went out on dates, were very affectionate towards one another, and spent much quality time together. I miss all those things. I miss having her in my life and being a family again. I feel so alone right now and don't know what to do. I feel I blew it with the most incredible woman in the world.

I don't now whether to just give up on her or expect her to change her mind again if things go bad with this other guy. For months, she's been changing going from me over to this other guy, and seems to think the pastor is always greener on the other side. She said I've always rejected her since we've first met, and this guy worships the ground she walks on. She still mentions things I did wrong from way back to when we first started dating....almost like she's keeping score and won't let that go.

I haven't talked to her about us in over 2 months. I know it won't make a difference right now because she won't believe what I have to say anyway. I went through all that last year. Right now, she doesn't want anything to do with me so all I can do is allow her space, and work on my relationship with God, and work on myself.

Does anyone have any advice for me at this point? I'm so in love with this woman but I don't know if we are any good together anymore. All we do is hurt one another. I feel she still loves me but is afraid to make a committment to me in fear that I will stop loving her. I just don't understand this.

All input is welcome.

Kew,
I’m going to reread this twice again before I reply.
Your WW’s behavior appears frantic even for the WW’s on this board.
In the meantime, while I’m trying to picture your situation, please post what you’ve read here, what books etc.
Are you seeing a counselor now? You may want a marriage coach and an individual counselor to help you through this crisis.

Okay, first off recognize that “romantic love” or “being in love” is a feeling which makes it a response to stimuli. This is stimuli you provide. Actually, what your wife is afraid of it that you won’t meet her emotional needs, and she won’t be in love with you, not that you won’t be in love with her. She expresses this differently because she doesn’t understand the way romantic love works.

So, right now, she’s in the problem all Wayward Spouses find themselves eventually, only she’s a rather extreme example. You meet some of her top needs, you alone are the father of her children, you alone can provide the kind of Family Commitment that she probably wants. No Other Man will. But, he probably meets many other needs.

I suggest you call and talk to one of the Harley’s asap. Plan B sounds like a good option at this point. When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the other person, it’s time for Plan B. In Plan B you write a very nice letter saying Baby, I love you and I want to be married to you forever. I know I screwed up when I did x, y, z and that contributed to your affair, and I’m sorry. Now, I need to protect myself and the love I carry for you by having no contact with you until you stop all contact with OM, and develop a plan for the recovery of our marriage.” Yours may have a variation since you are legally divorced, although it doesn’t sound like either of you are emotionally divorced.

Then, you pick someone through whom you will arrange child visitation, etc. You do NOT contact her. You do not take calls from her. You meet none of her needs.

She may turn completely to the other man, or she may decide to give him up entirely because she misses you so much. At this point, I’m not sure you have much to lose. If you keep on in the current situation, all your love for her will some disappear as a direct result of the pain she’s inflicting on you and the children.

And don’t stress about the “I only wanted to be with the children.” This is a woman who hasn’t looked deeply at her emotions. She probably missed being a family with a Mommy, a Daddy and two children. That is family commitment.

I hope this helps some.

I haven't read any books recently but I have read certain areas on this site.....Plan A and B, Love Banks, recovering from an affair, etc...

I'm afraid I may be a little too late in reading this material. I wish I had known all of this as we tried to work on things. It all makes sense, especially the love deposits and withdrawals. Early on, we made alot of love deposits to one another. But as time went on, she talked about her ex which I think would be a withdrawal. I began getting more frustrated with this and made some love withdrawals of my own.

I am currently not seeing a councelor but have considered it. I'm a christian and have been seeing my pastor. He stressed that I should put the past behind me as quickly as possible and move forward and thought maybe a counselor would not be good for me because I'm still dwelling on the past alot and talking with a councelor might promote me to do more of that.

You suggest a marriage coach and an indvidual councelor to get through this. Do you think there would be value in getting a marriage coach? Would this be for my benefit? As far as she's concerned, we're finished and this marriage is over.

What you say makes alot of sense with my wife meaning that I won't meet her emotional needs and that she won't be in love with me. While we were together, I didn't think of whether I was meeting her emotional needs. And we didn't talk about this at all so I would have been clueless as to what her emotional needs are. Now I have a better idea, through talking with my pastor and remembering some things from her past relationship with her father. He didn't give her much credit for anything and usually only complained about things she did wrong, and gave no praise for things she did right.

How can I reach one of the Harley's? Are there some phone numbers listed somewhere? Do you think they will be able to help?

Plan B is the logical approach but she's not really deciding between me and the other person. She's already made her mind up....doesn't want to be with me, and in now back with him. So I'm not sure if writing a nice letter is a good idea. She may just tear it up or not receive what I have to say, even if she reads it. You don't think we're emotionally divorced? What do you mean by that?

I think she has turned completely to the other man. I don't see her missing me at all. She said she has no feeling for me and doens't ever think she would be secure enough with me to be in an intimate relationship with me.

I do agree with that. If our reconcilliation had gone on much longer I think both of us would lose love for each other because we would both continue to inflict pain upon each other. That is one good thing I see out of this....I'm not currently causing her anymore pain. But, not the case on her end when I see her walking around with this guy at work on occasion....that hurts me.

Thank you very much for your response. I really appreciate that. Right now, I'm not sure that I have much of a choice but to avoid her, heal and help my kids heal from this experience, and put myself in a position to where I'm emotionally and mentally strong enough to make good decisions in the future. Part of me sees her relationship with this other guy blowing up again and her coming back to me, but part of me doesn't.

I think you should consider a marriage coach if you have any hope of saving the relationship. And given her track record, nothing indicates she won't be calling you in two months.

On the other hand, I'd guess your pastor knows her as well as you, and he may be able to see something you don't. But, ultimately, only you can say when you're completely done, through, over.

Just right now you don't sound like it.

Go to the home page of this site. Listed there on the navagation bar is Counseling center. Click on that. It has the 800 number.

I worked with Steve Harley. But many have worked with Jennifer, his sister. It's all done by phone which is so convenient. Another option is Cerri who does phone counseling and is a disciple of Dr. Harley's. Her web site is www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com. But she just had surgery and won't be able to talk for a week or so. Cerri is great if you want a lot of hand holding along the way.

I don't know if I have hope of saving the relationship. I'm really torn on that because of the way she's made a quick decision to just end things and move on with her life. And she says she doesn't have any feelings for me anymore. One thing is for sure, I still love her with all my heart and still think she's an incredible woman on the inside and out. I want to spend the rest of my life with her and I feel if we're both committed to making this work, then it can work. However, her committtment to make it work is just not there anymore, well, at least not right now. At the same time, I'm tired of holding back my feelings of admiration of her, my apprecication for her, and all the good she's brought into my life. I'm thinking of writing her a letter to let her know these things.

Her track record does indicate that anything is possible with her and that she could change her mind in the future.

I don't want to lose her, but at the same time, I know I can't be with her right now because I have alot of work to do with myself and if it's ever going to work for us, I have to prepare myself if that opportunity ever comes back around. I haven't emotionally divorced myself from her.

I'll have to give the counceling center some thought. Money is tight right now so I'm not sure that I'd be able to affort it. Plus, with the state of mind she's in, and wanting nothing to do with me, I don't know if it would be worth it right now to try to convince her otherwise.

I’d say if you don’t try to convince her otherwise now, you run the risk that she’ll assume you really don’t care either and move on. It’s how you convince her that being married to you is best for her that’s important. And a marriage coach could help there.

If you really can’t afford it, develop a plan and post it here, along with any correspondence you write to her. We’ll help edit and refine it for you. We’ll point out where you might be going wrong.

You can also post on the EN board and get lots of feed back.

The difficulty will be sorting out the wheat from the shaft. It’s important to remember that any coaching your receive here will come with a bias. Each poster brings his or her own experience and wounds, healed or not, to the board. And since we aren’t trained professionals, those experiences can effect even the wisest at times. All said, there are some old timers who really know their stuff. And some newbies who do too!

That is a good point. I've thought that too....if I do nothing, she might assume that I don't care anymore. That's true about a marriage coach....they could help me try to prove that to her.

Another good idea. Keep in touch with you guys with my plan and how it's going.

Any input would probably be helpful at this point so I would gladly accept what you guys have to say.

Thanks for your input greengables. I appreciate it.

Well, I don't even know about Plan B now. I picked my 2 young girls up this weekend at my ex's home. As soon as we drove off, my oldest daughter(4 years) said to me, "daddy I went to Tony's place yesterday." Tony is the guy she had the affair with while we were married. I knew she contacted him again as soon as she called it quits on our reconcilliation attempt. I figured she'd run back to him but didn't want it to be true. I tried to believe they were just friends. Now she's bringing our daughters around him again. It's tearing me up. And they are confused again.

I'm still in love with this woman, but sometimes I ask myself, how can I still be in love with someone who constantly makes promisses to me and then breaks them? I don't know what to do at this point. I don't know if there is much that I can do. She's given up on us comepletely and jumped back into a relationship with her lover. We're divorced and I don't think she sees any kind of future with us. Maybe I should just let it go and focus on myself now. I can only make my own decisions and do what I know is right and take steps for my own healing. I love her and want to be with her but she's on that self-centered path again of doing only what makes her happy, regardless of how it affects our children or me. When I moved out, she told me she would spend time alone to get comfortable with herself again. I knew that would not be the case. She immediately jumped the fence and starting spending time with Tony. She's done this time and time again, never actually really dealing with pain she's caused other people and the guilt that comes along with hurting others. She masks those negative feelings by jumping into another relationship. Months later, reality hits her, and she realizes that she made yet another quick decision without thinking things through. Guilt sets in and pain that she hadn't initially dealt with, resurfaces.

So for now, I don't think there is much I can say or do to try to get her back. She is with someone else. Right now, I need to find some healing and if history repeats, maybe a door will open up down the road when she will find more things wrong with her current relationship, bail on it, and be ready to listen to what I have to say.

All input is welcome and appreciated.

I know I will get flamed over this, but I would totally let her go......other than seeing her to swap kids. The damage has been done in your relationship and the kids have been involved now..........the damage is done.

How about Plan B with a letter?

Know about the feelings when they involve kids in their lies.

Lid on the coffin for me when my x took my son along ow to disneyworld 2 years ago where we went on our honeymoon...And ironically now, his THIRD honeymoon to OW/wistress/wife now.

Anyway, she has to see consequences to her horrid behavior. She's like an uncontrolled rubber ball you buy outta the quarter machine kids get...Bounce it once and it bounces all over the place.

She's totally foggy.

Send a good plan B letter letting her know that you still love her but that you're not putting up with this.

Don't allow her to let kids around OM if you can help it either. Remember, you've LET her do this too long. Time to stop it man.

Be strong and get some advice here. Just because most of us are divorced does NOT mean we want you to get one too. We will help however we can but allowing her to bouncey ball all over the town between you and OM and kids along for the ride is damn wrong on her behalf. Stand up for the kids at least.

Time for her to see what itis she has done. You have ENABLED her to do this. Stop aiding and abetting this woman. She's an emotional child and an emotional wreck. Sounds totally irrational.

justpeachy......they are divorced.

Thanks for you input everyone. I've had my daughters a few days straight now. My oldest continues to talk about my xwife's boyfriend, constantly saying his name. It likes a dagger going in my heart every time she says his name. She's to young to know any different so I just keep saying "that's nice honey" or "wonderful" or whatever. I'm really upset at the my xwife for bringing the girls around this guy. She totally disregards how confusing that must be to our daughters as well as how it makes me feel that she's with him. I'm not sure what I'm going to do at this point. Let her go or write her a letter. I definitely still love her but at the same time, I resent her and am bitter towards her for breaking promise after promise, for giving up on us again and jumping back over to her lover. She's broken my heart so many times. I need some time and space from her to heal. That is for sure.

I have written a Plan B letter. Everyone please read it and let me know what you think.....I realize it's probably way to much and that's why I'm looking for some advice here.

*****************************Dear xxxxxx,

I know I made mistakes while we tried to work on things. I'm sorry for putting so much emphasis on the physical part of our relationship. I realize now that hurt you emotionally and I'm sorry for that. I have always been in love with you and I have struggled to express my feelings to you through words so I tried to show you in ways that came most natural to me….through my actions, through affection, and through wanting to get close to you. I realized you weren't ready early on when we began dating again and we talked about that. And I accepted that. As time went on, I moved in, and I thought we grew closer and more comfortable with one another. With that, my expectations for reaching that next level grew. When it didn't happen, I would try to get you to open up to me about it. I was only searching for more open communication between us. I wanted to better understand your position. After our talks. I felt better about our communication and that we were opening up to one another. That was so important to me. And I wanted to let things happen at the pace you were comfortable with. But you surprised me by initiating things at times. I was overwhelmed with joy and excitement. I took your actions as being genuine. With that, I believed we both had reached that level of comfort with one another so I began initiating things more....one of the things you said I didn't do such a good job of in the marriage. When you turned me down, I was hurt and confused by this. Later you told me that you hadn't been ready any of the times that we were initimate. I did not know this, especially with you initiating things.

During this time apart, through God, and through other resources, I have realized what's most important in a relationship.....The quality time we spend together, communication, understanding, forgiveness, love, care, kindess, trust, open honesty, warm non-sexual affection, personal space from one another, admiration and appreciation for one another, and meeting each other's emotional needs.

Please understand that I would never have left you or fallen out of love with you. I have been in-love with you since we got to know each other in our 2nd year at Ferris. My love for you has only grown stronger since then. Decisions you have made in the past and decisions you are making now has not and will not change that. I have an unconditional love for you in my heart.

I've always wanted to tell you some things, feelings that I have struggled to open up to you with in the past........You are the most beautiful woman that I have ever laid eyes on. I mean that. Your beauty is natural, pure, and unmatched by anyone. But, as beautiful as you are on the outside, you are so much more beautiful on the inside. The way you have loved and cared for the girls, the way you have loved and cared for me. You have an incredible heart, so wonderful and big. So generous and full of giving. You have an incredible spirit, so positive, so full of energy for life, so full of joy and excitement. You are a natural-born leader in everything you do. I respect you and look up to you in so many ways. You are such a responsible wife, mother, employee, and friend. I truly admire your work-ethic, your determination for getting things done and getting them done quickly and with quality. You've inspired me to be a better student, a better employee, a better husband, a better person, a better friend, a more dedicated father. I am the father that I am today because of you. You are the greatest mother any child could ever ask for. I have so much respect and admiration for you. You have a super intellegent mind. A mind that is able to make super quick desions, decisions that would take me days or even weeks to make. I have often wondered how a person could be as gifted as you are intellectually. You seem to know something about everything in life.

I am totally in love with you and want you to spend the rest of my life with you, but I can't be with you right now. At this point, we are only hurting each other when we're together. I don't believe that either of us our healed from what's happened in the past. The only way for us to truly heal is to be apart and to get to know God. You have chosen a different route, a road you said you would never travel again. But that is your choice, and I respect that. And as long as you chose that road, the road for us being a couple and a family again, will be blocked.

I too have made some of my own decisions and one of them is to dedicate my time, my attention, and my life to God. My relationship with him is better than ever. He is in my heart now, He is in my spirit. I will continue to grow and put my trust and faith in God. I know that I can't go wrong in that. Through Him, I will remain single, and leave the door open for our reconcilliation. And through Him, I will not only maintain the love I have for you, but it will grow stronger.

If there comes a time where you can break away from XXXX, and you'd like to sit down to talk about our future together as a couple, as a family, please don’t be afraid to contact me. I love you more than ever. I have made a choice to forgive you and I am at peace with what's happened. I appreciate you for the wonderful amazing woman that you are. I appreciate everything you've given me in my life. I truly love you and I believe in you. And I believe with all of my heart, that your love can be restored, but in order for this to happen, we will need God, a marrital recovery plan, councel, and a true commitment on both of our parts. My commitment is already there. I'm just patiently waiting for yours. You are the greatest gift that God has ever given me. You are a true blessing XXX. Thank you for reading this. I love you!
***************************

"I don't know if we are any good together anymore?" I read your message and it sounds like you know the answer. You say the only thing you do is hurt each other....love is patient, love is kind...... I sometimes (very often) feel like I would do anything to stop my divorce but somethings are just out of our control. Losing a spouse in divorce is like dying inside. I don't have a PHD but, your wife doesn't sound like someone who wants to love you and make you happy for all the days of your life. The part of what was good in your marriage may be gone? If you can, be thankful everyday for your daughters and be the best dad you can. That's really all you have control over. I do wish you all the best....
I hope you can wish that for yourself too without assumming you know what the best is. (I wish that for me too)

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: gfranco ]</small>

I know I have to let go. She is such a wonderful woman and I truly do love her. But she is in love with someone else. That was alot for me to deal with when we tried to work things out. I often wondered why she is with me if I am not the one in her heart. And of course I didn't have the knowledge that I have now. I found out from this site that this is quite common after an affair and it takes a while for the cheating spouse to get over the lover. I didn't give her enough time to get over him. Had I known about this, I believe I could have been more patient. Had I known about Love deposits and withdrawals at the time we worked on things. Things may have been different. Now I know these things and the knowledge I have now is killing me, and I beat myself up for not realizing it then.

She even told me that we have all the time in the world to work on this. Let's take it slow and let it happen, don't force anything, just be ourselves, and let our relationship grow naturally. Get to know each other again, and enjoy each other's time and company. But my patience ran thin the more she started talking about her lover. My insecurities grew and then I would start panicking, try harder to reach her, and get close to her. Then I entered the fog, and lost track of what she said in the first place about taking as much time as we needed and taking things slowly. Moving in with her as soon as I did was a bad idea. It was so hard for me to take things slowly because I was already still in love with her. But at the same time, her feelings for me weren't quite there. And I didn't give that enough time for those feelings to come back.

I don't have much of a choice right now. She chose to end things with us and is back with her lover. My heart has been ripped out again, and I'm in more pain than I was when the divorce took place a year ago. I feel I blew a wonderful opportunity for this thing to work between us. I really thought we'd get threw this and be stronger than ever.

I'm still in-love with her, I always have been. I may give her this letter just to let her know that. Let her know how I feel about her. What she chooses to do with the letter is up to her.

I know I have to let go of her. Once I send this letter, maybe that will be a feeling of release for me.

Thanks for your input.

Greengables, what are your thoughts?