He is going to see his lawyer at 4pm today to sign off on all of the papers. I don't feel happy about it. I shed a lot of tears again last night.

(A little background leading up to last night:)

He was away at x-mas with his newly widowed mom and his brothers. When he got home, he found in the mail not just the Division of Matrimonial Property documents but the divorce papers as well. So he said that is why he didn't bother to contact me in the past few weeks (which included time off for both of us and our 8th anniversary). He figured it was over when he got those papers.

Yesterday we ended up emailing because he wanted to get the videos and some of the photo albums before signing off on everything today. So when he came over last night to pick up some of our home videos and photo albums (we have an agreement about him dubbing the videos and me scanning the pictures and swapping sometime down the road). We talked for a few hours - mostly him giving me advice about how to not get hurt by other men if/when I start dating. He also said things like "thank-you for the best 10 years or so of my life."

We chose to spend one last night together. It was all very loving, and just typing about it brings me to tears again. How can 2 people who loved each other so very much, and who still have such sexual chemistry, and who spooned each other all night long as we slept, not be able to find a way to be a happily married loving couple again?

I asked him before we parted this morning if he still planned to sign everything today, and he said yes, I asked why, and he said because I sent them to him, so he's going to sign them.

I feel very mixed up today. I was SO adamant about wanting a divorce (so many things about my H are different now, and I have great difficulty imagining him treating me well), but there were glimpses again of the tender, loving man that was my husband and my best friend for so many years. I thought I had lost love for him, but I know it's still there.

I know what some of you might say. We can always remarry down the road if that's what's best.

Somethings that he said that ring in my ears are:
How when he got home from his x-mas trip, he hoped to find maybe a card or phone message from me, but found none. He thought maybe he'd call me up and ask me if I wanted to go away skiing. But when he went to check his mail, he found the Dv papers, so he didn't contact me at all.

And oddly enough, he actually brought me back a few small gifts from where he was on his x-mas holiday. That's something he's never done since we've been separated.

Maybe I was unreasonable in Sept. when after a month of us really getting along he told me that he was going away for x-mas with his family and that the tickets were all booked (without any thought to spending x-mas with me) and I took that as rejection and treatment as someone he didn't really want to be with.

I am rambling with self-doubt here today. I don't know what to do about it.

If he signs all of the papers, and I haven't signed anything yet, is there still a chance to stop everything?

Can any of you remember my strong reasons for divorcing him?

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

PS: A huge part of our convo last night was my H going on about how the reason our marriage fell apart is because he was just a big "[censored]", and never came down hard on me the 1st or 2nd time I cheated on him so of course it happened a 3rd time. I told him no, it was my fault, I chose to cheat on him, but he was adamant that it was all his fault.
And he spent a lot of time quoting Tom Lykas (sp?) that American talk radio guy too.

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Hi Jen. I've read many of your posts along the way. I say, if you are having doubts, then swallow your pride, and make one last ditch effort before he signs the papers. It sounds like he doesn't really want the D either. Maybe you both need more time to make this decision.

Tell him what you posted, about how you felt hurt, it sounds like he wants you to take charge and make the move.

I'm a bs, I've swallowed so much pride I'm choking on it. I contemplate D alot. Do I really want one, I don't think so. I think I want my H to be loving, honest, emotionally commited to me and only me, and to know and show me that I'm the one for him even though he made a huge mistake. Is he ready to do all those things? I guess he's trying, but it is slow.

So, please, don't give up. Try again. Maybe your H wants you to stop him. I can't imagine spending an evening together as you did, which sounds really loving, and you're both "done".

JMO, but I say make an attempt at stopping him. It sounds like you both still love each other. Put it all out on the line, what do you have to lose? Nothing.

Please let us know what happened, good luck, I wish you the best.

Call him, tell him you do not want the divorce and tell him why you felt so rejected, and ended up filing papers......if you don't you will regret it, no matter what the outcome of the call.

If divorce happens, you need to know you gave it your ALL.

Love and light, Jacky

I did just call him. He is still going to sign them.
Thing is I served him and if he doesn't sign them he'll just be found in default anyway. I said how can two people spend such a loving night together and yet go through a divorce, it all seems so wrong. He said he was so kind to me last night hoping to make me feel not so bad about it all. I said I feel just sick inside. He said he's felt sick inside for a long time. That he just felt like shooting himself right now. I told him that I felt about the same if that made him feel any better. I told him I wanted to hear him tell me that he wanted to be with me, but he didn't respond to that really. I am such a crying wreck I don't think I can go to work even.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Upon thinking, and talking with one friend, I just realized.....I gave him yet another chance to stand up and say, Jen, I love you, I want to be with you, let's work at this together....but instead he said that he's going to sign the papers. I guess that tells me how much effort he's willing to put into our relationship, right?

What kind of a child says, "Well you sent them to me so I'm going to sign them," when a crying woman (me) says to him in as sincere a manner possible that she's having doubts, never really wanted a Dv, but felt that it was her only choice b/c she didn't sense that her H could ever truly forgive or love her ever again?

Rationality is returning finally.....but God I hate this.

Jen

Ring again?

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Nina too ]</small>

Why bother, what is the point? He's left for work anyway. He doesn't care to fight for this marriage, he'd rather just sign the papers, and lay the guilt on me for serving him with them.

Rational Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong> Upon thinking, and talking with one friend, I just realized.....I gave him yet another chance to stand up and say, Jen, I love you, I want to be with you, let's work at this together....but instead he said that he's going to sign the papers. I guess that tells me how much effort he's willing to put into our relationship, right?

What kind of a child says, "Well you sent them to me so I'm going to sign them," when a crying woman (me) says to him in as sincere a manner possible that she's having doubts, never really wanted a Dv, but felt that it was her only choice b/c she didn't sense that her H could ever truly forgive or love her ever again?

Rationality is returning finally.....but God I hate this.

Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...I wasn't going to respond, you do this so often, seemed pointless...but this post gave me reason to think you really do finally get it...sort of. There is no love, there is no safety, there is only a man who knows how to manipulate you and get what he wants (sex last night in this case, and more if he can confuse you to stop proceedings)..it is all in the patterns, as you noted in this post...just finish your task jen, free yourself from this emotional morass you are in, and go on with your life. Learn from this (the reality not the fantasy you envision of last 10 years), and figure out why you choose narcissitic partners..so you don't make the same mistake again...and figure out why you are so easily emotionally manipulated so you can set safe boundaries. Finally jen, a nite of sex does not mean anything at all, relationships are not built on sex. Your emotions are mixed up today cause you let yourself be manipulated into sex...that means something to you, but it means nothing to him, you should have maintained your boundaries. Do not ever have sex with someone who is not first emotionally and psychologically safe...that means it should have been at least a year of safe behavior before you even considered letting this man into your bed. He has no interest in your emotional well-being or he would not keep trying to get you to give him sex.... he would have realized your needs (and you have told him as well) and voluntarily earned back your trust, from which intimacy grows. He just uses you jen, you are simply a sex object.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:

"He just uses you jen, you are simply a sex object."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen I wholeheartedly agree with sufdb's statement for if your stbxh truly loved you, he would not have manipulated you into having sex with him 'one last time'. Don't be surprised if you find that he is not going to stay out of your life after the divorce and will try to turn you into a 'friend with benefits'. But be that as it may, you must develop enough self respect so that you never again let ANY man treat you like he did. Self respect is the foundation of loving oneself, and without that love of self NOBODY is going to love you in return.

I have to agree with TMCM and subpf, he is still up to his tricks of emotionally manipulating you. He loves to put the burden of uncertainty on you, then do nothing when you react and try to reach out. It's a sick cat and mouse game that I'm really sad to see you are still playing with him.

I really wish you the best of luck in your new relationships. I think you will be better off moving forward.

Oh Jen - I am feeling your hurt. I too have experienced what you are going through - one minute I felt there was still hope and then when I got rejected afterwards I feel so used (and so stupid for letting myself get into that position to be hurt again).

I had a weak moment myself today. I had not spoken to my H for over a week (he hasn't even phoned to check on the kids) anyways I had heard of a retrouvaille weekend coming up this weekend in Calgary and called and asked him if he wanted to attend. He told me he would have to think about it - I told him not to bother that he obviously wasn't interested in making this relationship work. So, needless to say I am still trudging along at making sure all my D papers are in order (our court date is Feb. 2/04). At least I can say I did everything I could to save my marriage and at least I know now that any doubt I had this morning is gone (for now anyways).

When this is all over we should get together for a celebratory drink ha! ha!

I hope you have a better night tonight - chin up!

mixed message

WS (me) 32
BS (H) 37 (1 son-14 previous marriage)
d-day June 2002
Married December 31, 1997
2 DD 1 & 5
started D proceeding December 20, 2003

Did he manipulate you? Or did you try to manipulate him???

Well, I am a much happier girl tonight than I was this morning. I got sucked right back in, but with hours of perspective, I know that I don't want to and can't be with my H. He is all about manipulation to meet his (sexual)needs. I know I deserve so much better.

TMCM - I think I'm still learning to love myself and have respect for myself. There's a lot of negative self talk that I used to catch myself in that I'm now consciously engaging less and less in. I have fewer negative messages coming my way from my H for starters, and I've chosen to surround myself with positive and encouraging people too.

Findingmywayback wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He loves to put the burden of uncertainty on you, then do nothing when you react and try to reach out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY!! I couldn't have put it better.

mixedmessage wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> one minute I felt there was still hope and then when I got rejected afterwards I feel so used (and so stupid for letting myself get into that position to be hurt again). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is precisely how I was feeling earlier today.

Feb. 4th isn't too far off, the end is in sight for you! A celebratory drink indeed would be fun once this is all done!

FC: I think he and I both have a bad habit of attempting to manipulate one another. He will throw out breadcrumbs to make it sound a little like he still cares about me to get sex. I'll give in to sex to hopefully meet one of his big needs, hoping to open up communication, etc. It's all about manipulation perhaps. Heck, that's what plan A and B are about too, aren't they?

I'm so much happier tonight. My life, aside from the whole I failed at marriage and I'm going through divorce aspect, is pretty good. I was away skiing last weekend, will be away with some friends again this weekend, and the weekend after that I go to run my first 1/2 marathon in Las Vegas of all places. I'm keeping busy and having fun, that is to be sure! And now that I know the Dv is going to go through, I can make long range plans, like starting to look for a house of my own, and deciding what I'm going to do with my holiday time in July. I'm about to be free, truly free, to do what I want, without wondering if my H will ever wake up and want to be with me, and if I should put off making long range plans until I know where our relationship is headed. Now I know where it's headed (or isn't).

Life is good, and will be good, because I will consciously make choices to make it that way!

Jen:)

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen you know I respect you immensely but....

An affair is a wakeup call in any marriage. You had three of them.

You never answered the call and niether did he.
You both share this blame. You both chose to avoid working on the marriage and you see the results.

Move on, grow and learn from this and find happiness in the future not misery in the past.

Both of you spent the last year seperated. And yet all you did was rehash the old pain but not work on the marriage.

Life is too short. There is so much water under this bridge that I take the rare position that in your case divorce is the correct thing. Staying together making each hurt is not the way to go.

Jen - As you can probably surmise, I am sorry that your marriage is ending. You know how I've thought all along that your husband was behaving in a very immature and sinful manner toward you. So I am not surprised that it has come to this, just sorry that he couldn't seem to do "his part" to repair the damage.

Having said that, I've seen nothing that indicates any true remorse on his part. Nothing that says "I will die for my wife." So I don't think anything is going to change in the short run and certainly not before the divorce is finalized. This is just more of the "same" where he refused to accept any responsibility. He "feels" responsibility (that's where the "dead inside" feeling comes from) but he refuses to accept his part in it. He "protects" himself (ala the Taker in action) by trying to shift the "blame" for events and the divorce on you and your initiating the actions.

Yes, the former adultery was the catalyst, but his immaturity and refusal to be obedient to God is something that would still be there even without the adultery. I truly hope that he "wakes up" as a result of the finality of proceedings, but time will tell.

Now a little bit about you. Your feelings are normal and to be expected. You participated in a special bonding called marriage. By God's design you became "one flesh" with all of it's God-designed mysteries. The divorce is somewhat analagous to a "death." So there will be a time of grieving. Remember the good times, for there were surely some. Learn and grow from the "bad times" so you won't repeat the same mistakes in the future.

Remember that God is with you through it all. Continue to walk with Him and grow in your walk with Him. Put into practice as best you can being humbly obedient to God's commands and commit your life and future to His direction.

Should you, in the future, find a "good man" (even if as you sort of hope, it might be your current husband, assuming he has a massive change), be sure to know that he has a firm belief in Jesus Christ and is walking in obedience to God's commands.

Jen, in many ways your current marriage is an "unevenly yoked" marriage. He is choosing (though trying to shift the total blame to you) to leave. That is the essence of his signing the divorce papers. So this is the time to "let him choose to leave." Neither you nor I know what God may have in store for him in the future. Hopefully this may be the "wake up call" that God can use to finally reach his heart. But leave that in God's hands and do not allow your emotions or hopeful wishes to prompt you into "forgiving and reconciling with him" without concrete and valid reasons.

Continue to post on MB, we are a sort of "extended family" that you can talk to, agree with, disagree with, but know that we all care about what happens to you. This will be especially true, too, should you become involved with someone else in the future.

Jen, you've learned a whole lot and have grown a whole lot since you first started posting. Keep that knowledge, learned the "hard way," to build a better and brighter future. Read your Scripture every day to stay close to God and to know that He is with you every day. Remember that God is always the God of "new beginnings" too. The past is the past, but He can, and will if you'll let Him, create a beautiful future for you as you walk with Him each day that is called "today."

Lastly, on a personal note, do you know how to contact Zoey? The email address that I have for her doesn't work anymore and I'd like to see how things are going for her and Zack while they are in Iraq.

God bless and lean on Philippians 4:13 for all the strength that you may need, both now and in the future.

stunned-dad: I hear you about how both of us avoided facing the tough issues in our marriage, and I fully agree that where we are today is both of our faults. But I do reserve the right to say that I was SO very willing to do whatever it would take to make this marrige work, short of being my H's sex toy and not being treated lovingly like his wife. But that is as much as he would allow me to have of him. I reached out, but he didn't have it in him to truly open up to me and work on our marriage in a healthy way. He refused to try counselling. He was incapable of spending time together without expecting sex. He wouldn't let me be a priority in his life. But I digress, here I am defending myself again. I know I did all that I could given what he wasn't willing to do.

FH, thank-you so much for your ongoing encouragement and spiritual guidance over the course of my entire separation and through all of my trials and tribulations. Indeed, he tries to talk of remorse, but it doesn't feel very genuine to me. Do let me know if you hear from Zoey!

I am feeling SOOOO much better than I was Wed. a.m. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life! Yesterday, I emailed my H to ask him if he did indeed sign all of the papers and when they would be in my lawyer's hands and his reply was yes, and within one day. Now my perspective on this is YAY, he is being very cooperative and isn't stalling things, and so it looks like I'll be Ms. Jen, not Mrs. John, in 4-6 weeks, or at the outside 2 months.

[/QUOTE] I'm free to do what I want any old time....I'm free to sing my song though it gets out of time .....I'm free to choose what I please any old time....I'm free any old time to get what I want, yes I am! - Rolling Stones [QUOTE]

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />