I don't know GG, I couldn't say M is like pregnancy. To me, the marriage vows say till death do us part. That isn't always a physical death, it is also spiritual.

For my particular situation and beliefs, my wife was spiritually "dead". She did not uphold her vows, she did not repent, she did not forsake others so in essence I counted my marriage dead and done with after my effors failed.

When I got married, I took a vow before God and in his eyes not for the state in which I reside in. The paper we were handed didn't magically bring us together some how. God tells us that the two become one flesh.

And to let no man separate what God has brought together.

We are called to live in peace and not bondage. For me, getting a spiritual divorce was more important than the paperwork that accompanies it.

The paperwork will be done sooner or later, but if the commitment and vows of your M are not being upheld and your Spouse refuses to follow a plan of reconciliation I don't know how you can really still be "married" since Infidelity and death are the only grounds for divorce according to the Bible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by greengables:
<strong>
But, that may be my attitude since I was not committed enough to my marriage to stay in it. My H’s words which honestly I can’t argue with. If I had greater commitment to the marriage, I’d continue living miserably. I’d be willing to give up peace and contentment. Because doesn’t commitment mean holding up your end of the deal no matter whether the other person does or doesn’t? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Something I read on another (very not Marriage Builders) website, "When you make a commitment for better or worse, the worse refers to what life has in store for you, not what the wrong person chooses to throw at you. Self preservation is not selfishness."

I hear what you’re saying Eduard. I took the whole vow part of the marriage very seriously. One thing that has come out of this slow demise of my marriage is I won’t make another vow to God. Being human, I may not be able to fulfill my vow.

(I’m becoming Quaker! Slowly, but surely.)

And I’m not really sure what I think about marriage as an institution any more. My experience has been so dismal. Did I just chose wrong? Or is marriage a bad fit for me? Or our times?

I personally don’t feel married any more. I find myself saying things like “when I was married…” Yet, people here tell me I’m still married. And legally I am.

I know a man who has lived with the same woman for 15 years. He is married to someone else. He and his wife are Roman Catholic. They’ll not divorce. But for all real purposes, they are divorced and he is remarried.

Hmm. This is really very thought provoking. Even as I wrote my last post, I was aware that for me there are degrees of marriage from a moral standpoint. For me, I would have to say a man who’s wife refuses to have sex with ever again, is more justified in having an affair than a man whose wife is willing. (Oh, boy, am I going to get it with that.) Obviously, it’s better to be off with the old love before your on with the new, but still I would consider the person less culpable because the intimacy level is so low.

I also find myself wondering if marriage is something God wants or if it is something Man wants. After all, even the Bible is Man’s interpretation of God’s word.

But, Eduard, I also never see you attacking marriages to OP. ‘Though I haven’t read all your posts.

Elspeth, I never thought of it that way! I do think my STBX and I are fundamentally unsuited to each other. We’re so different, he doesn’t even know why I think we’re different. And when he throws something that’s right for him my way, 9 times out of 10, it’s wrong for me.

All in all though, I’d say marriage has not proved worth the risks. Knowing how bad it can be even when there is no abuse involved, I just can’t see risking it a second time, even if I could find someone.

Interesting discussion but wholly academic...

Bottom line:

If I had left my marriage and remarried my OW, the only opinions of that second marriage that really even matter are mine and my new wife's.
I really don't care what my ex or the rest of the world thinks. That marriage becomes valid for ME.

An ex who feels they have some moral obligation to undermine that relationship is doing NOTHING EXCEPT destroying themselves and their children.
Time to move on.

Of course, no one is proposing that the ex has to be joyous about it. I'm just saying that the new couple probably doesn't really care how they feel about.

Low

A "marriage" to an affair partner is not half a marriage - it is no marriage at all, just as in the case of bigamy.

After glancing through this thread, a comment or two (I didn't pay too much attention when reading <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )
Feel free to slam me for not paying attention. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm just saying that the new couple probably doesn't really care how they feel about.
Ya' think?
They didn't care about what others thought of their adulterous relationship, why would they care what others think of their now "legit" relationship?

But, what if those WSs don't make a mockery of their second marriage? Aren't those marriages just as valid?
If the ws marries the op, then the marriage is a mockery from the start as well as making a mockery of the principle of marriage.

Most people on the MB forums agree that marriage is an absolute state like pregnancy. You either are or you aren't.
Post a message and ask if it's okay to date while married (I have asked).
You'll get bunches of people asking, "what do you mean by married? My marriage ended when my spouse slept with the op" or something along those lines.

So many here do not consider it an absolute.

Some of the comments here are so outlandish...no wonder why our society is hurting....I am hoping that you all are doing this for the sake of discussion...but horrifying none the less. In my book, integrity, honor, love, commitment, respect and even loyalty are important values. Isn't that what we want to teach our kids--I think so.

I believe in marriage. I also believe, more so lately, that it is a true sacrament from God. Have you not seen marriages that are good--where two people endure the good times and bad together--I don't think there is anything more beautiful. To raise your family with a firm foundation, that you know will be there for you. No one said it was going to be easy, no one guaranteed the "in love feeling forever". The love I am talking about is so much deeper and richer. Much past the sexual excitement that my ex looks for in a new relationship. My parents had that kind of love. Was their marriage perfect--no. My aunt just died, she and her husband had that kind of relationship. I would give anything to have had that.

My ex's marriage is valid, definitely. He is married. But it is also an immoral relationship because it was founded with lies, self-centered behavior, and irresponsibility. I didn't understand the red flags that were there before I married him--I was blind with love. Probably just like his mistress is now. In some ways, I feel sorry for what she is going to have to deal with--it is not fun being married to someone like that. However, when I met him--he wasn't married. He didn't have a family that counted on him. She knew he did from the first night she slept with him. I heard a phone message from her to him telling him that she was in love with him from his first kiss, and wanted to be married to him forever. She knew then that he was married and had kids. How sick of an individual is that? But he is more sick--because his ego was filled up with the idolization of a young women.

My life is not great right now...but it is not horrible either. I wish I could find true happiness again--I feel like I have lost my "joy" in living. I have a job that is challenging, I love the kids I teach, I have four great children--who however, are challenging in their own ways. I am dating a man who is wonderful to me--treats me better than I was ever treated in my marriage, but still feel so empty inside. I am working out again..I have gone everyday for the past three weeks and I am working on getting my house in shape to sell. I should be "happy", but I am not. The continuing sadness and experiences the kids and I have to keep going through are really tough. The financial aspect alone makes my head spin.

A good friend of mine is in the throws of an affair. She is going ahead with her divorce and continuing the affair. I feel so sad for her whole family. Also the kids' soccer coach is having an affair and has moved out of his family--I see it all around me...and it fills me with sadness. Vows should be taken seriously, or why make them. For the life of me, I don't know why my ex had a formal wedding. Obviously, he doesn't believe in marriage vows or commitment. I would never marry someone who has behaved like he has. What a joke...why get married if you don't believe in the premise of marriage. People do it all the time though.

I think we need to start educating people in what the responsibilities of marriage are--because it is more than just feeling good. I think marriages fail so much more now because commitment is a thing of the past--we are too much into what feels good at the moment. I think that people need to learn how to become a good marriage partner and what it entails. This next generation won't have the role models I had growing up. I have very few kids from intact families this year. What is their perception of marriage going to be? I know what my kids are already saying--there is no way they want to get married. It is sad to hear them talk, most of their friends come from divorced situations also. My oldest daughters are neat kids, but have developed a hard core in their relationships with their boyfriends. It hurts me knowing how our relationship has affected them.

Oh well, guess I have rambled on too long. Marriage as God intended it to be, would be wonderful. I am not the most religious person in the world, but I wish I had know better what God said about relationships, marriage and divorce before I had gotten married. Perhaps then I wouldn't have had to gone through the pain and heartache our family has endured these past three years. Pat

This discussion is totally confusing!

Ok, my ex had an affair and left. He moved directly in with his OW. I spent 2 years raising 3 boys on my own (with very little help from him...occassional child support...a couple of visits).

Then I remarried. My H is their step-father. Actually he has been more of a father to them than their own father. Ya see, their father doesn't want to be in their lives. It would interfer with his social life.

My ex married his OW 5 months after my marriage took place. To my children, this woman is their father's wife. They have never called her their step-mother. And my kids know why my marriage ended. They know about the affair. I refused to tell them that we divorced because we couldn't get along.

What my ex did was wrong...it was immoral. Is his new marriage valid? Yes, because it is legal. Does it have to be accepted? Well, I could care less what he does with his life now. But my children don't accept it. I think it could be that they could possibly accept it more if they were part of that life. But they're not.

OK...Here's a toughy.

What about the WAS that did in fact commit bigamy by marrying his affair partner within the 6 month waiting period following the signing of our divorce decree, and he was fully aware he was not to marry during this time?

How are the kids and I supposed to "accept" this marriage, and how am I supposed to make the kids respect their father, and his new "wife"?

The district atty. is dealing with this matter, as I type, but what am I to do in the meantime?

The kids have to go to their visitation, and be around them as they "act" as though they are married. Emotionally, they ARE married, but unfortunately, not legally.

Just a thought to ponder... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bj63:
<strong> OK...Here's a toughy.

What about the WAS that did in fact commit bigamy by marrying his affair partner within the 6 month waiting period following the signing of our divorce decree, and he was fully aware he was not to marry during this time?

How are the kids and I supposed to "accept" this marriage, and how am I supposed to make the kids respect their father, and his new "wife"?

The district atty. is dealing with this matter, as I type, but what am I to do in the meantime?

The kids have to go to their visitation, and be around them as they "act" as though they are married. Emotionally, they ARE married, but unfortunately, not legally.

Just a thought to ponder... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you concerned about the reality or some local legal rules? The legalities re marriage vary all over the planet....if he was in some other jurisdiction he would be married. Legalities have nothing to do with marriage except in a very narrow sense to maintain social order by making rulings re finances and custody (so people can't agress each other over such things). The reality of marriage is a committment (by 2 people, hopefully opposite gender) to a specific behavior pattern we recognize as protection/intimacy/cooperation. Your kids may have issues with your H re his (apparently) unwillingness to follow the rules, and he may or may not be legally married (or correct that in the future), but he has made it clear this woman is now an important part of his life...therefore anyone who cares about him, or a relationship with him has to respect that and support him....or they can reject and ignore him cause they don't like his choices....but it has nothing to do IMO with some local legal technicality.

Exactly my point...what is this teaching the kids? That it's ok to ignore the laws? That it's ok to do what you want, no matter what the judge tells you, right to your face? And I'm supposed to back him in this situation, and demand the kids respect this? Sorry...no can do!!

I know they are in a relationship, and people have to accept the situation as is...I am learning to accept this, reluctantly, but if I want to move on, I have to. It's mainly the kids that I'm worried about, and what kind of message this is sending them, and what I am to do about it.

This "local legal technicality" ie: bigamy, happens to be the law in this state. He knew the law, and he chose to ignore it...doesn't matter what purpose the law serves, it's the LAW.

Exactly my point...what is this teaching the kids? That it's ok to ignore the laws? That it's ok to do what you want, no matter what the judge tells you, right to your face? And I'm supposed to back him in this situation, and demand the kids respect this? Sorry...no can do!!


Sufdb...Ok, a discussion about "law" and "rules"

The short answer is rules are made to be broken, if we didn't do so then we (as a species) would soon cease to exist. It is impossible to legislate "perfection" therefore by definition some rules are not going to be a good thing...agreed?

In the area of human feelings, one cannot (and should not) legislate much....people have a sovereign (and evolutionary imperative) to decide for THEMSELF how to behave...that trumps all laws....if it didn't we would still have slavery and nazism (just for two small examples). Another example are sexual laws which sought to legislate how a H and wife could have sex....should they be followed (some are still on the books).


Judges are not God, they do not have to be obeyed...they are appointed by society to maintain order that's all....if you disobey a judge you take a risk, that is the consequence.

Re your kids, I teach mine to think for themselves, not to blindly follow others attempts to manipulate their behavior (including the govt. or legal system). I also teach them the value (in general) of following rules even if they might not want to (anarchy is pretty ugly also)....and how properly changing rules is preferable to civil war/unrest.

You specifically asked about a relationship issue that is only marginally complicated by a local ordinance. I would tell them their Dad exercised poor judgement (6 months is a short time) in disobeying the judge and may have a consequence because of it....but that has nothing to do with his decision to make this woman a part of his life. That they should base their relationship choices (re dad) on his actions toward them (and ditto his wife). He may very well not be worthy (or safe) of a close relationship with his kids, but it has nothing to do with the judge. I would also tell them the 6 month rule is a good one, it is a cooling off period before people make serious choices (like remarriage), so they can proceed with a clear mind. This does reflect on their dad's commonsense (if nothing else). I am also unclear of whether your H was fully conversant with the law, but I assume he was from your post, but that is another possible wrinkle.

Mostly I think this post, and your position is about anger and hurt re your marital failure, not about your kids, and what they should think about the law. That is understandable, I hope you don't think I am unsympathetic, and I do think your exh decision to remarry in violation of the court order was ill-advised, and does say something about him....but I don't think this is a "legal" issue so much as a relationship issue for your kids.

SUFDB,

My ex did know about the 6 month waiting period, or else he would have not waited until the day following the 6 month timespan to announce his marriage to his kids, his parents, and his siblings. He also started to wear a wedding ring at this point. He neglected to inform them, however, that he had been married for 4 months already. His sister found out, and was the one to tell me.

As for what the kids "think about the law", I could care a less what they think about the law. I care about how they feel about their dad weaseling his way around the law. Yes, he had no common sense, yes, he was selfish, and yes, the kids and I talk about this. I cannot encourage them to accept his relationship with her however. That will be up to them...and because of all the lies he's told to them, he has lost their respect. I am staying out of that...nothing I can do about it.

Am I angry about the current situation...oh yeah, but I'm not about to let it get to me. I'm still working on it...will be for awhile. Not fun when a marriage breaks up for whatever reason.

I can and do encourage my kids to be law abiding citizens, and be trustworthy, and loyal. So far, my ex's relationship with his new "wife" follows along with nothing of what I preach to them, so it seems to be a farce in their eyes. That's what they believe marriage to be, because of the current example set for them. That's my beef.

I appreciate your take on the situation.

<small>[ January 17, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: bj63 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, Eduard, I also never see you attacking marriages to OP </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have my thoughts and feelings on this and I try not to attack, but it's not my place to tell people what they should/shouldn't do and where they are/aren't wrong. They wouldn't listen to me even if I had the perfect argument on it anyhow. People will reap what they sow.

If someone asks me what I think about their situation, I'll probably tell them. Otherwise it's God who has the final say and not me.

I love the verse from Psalm 101 "He whose walk is blameless will minister to me".

I wasn't put on earth to condemn the people on it, I was put here to help show them the light.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also find myself wondering if marriage is something God wants or if it is something Man wants. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe without a doubt Marrige is one of God's gift to man. He even tells us that it won't be easy so why should we be surprised.

I think much like Eduard. I leave the final decision about things with God.

I would never personally counsel ANYONE to divorce for any reason - that remains a personal choice between them and God.

God says He hates divorce and as a Christian I think we should too. He doesn't say to hate the PERSON though, only the divorce.

I believe that adultery and subsequent marriage IS sin and morally wrong and the consequences are far reaching.

But, having said that, I do believe that people do repent and do change and can be very sorry for their actions and desiring for forgiveness.

It is at that point that God will forgive. It is at that point that we as Christians are also required to forgive and restore.

This thread has taken many twists and turns and it has been hard to follow.

Generally I think most people are saying the same thing.

The point is that only GOD knows the heart. People do very selfish and horrible things to one another, even Christians.

God will always forgive and restore when we are sincere.

HOWEVER, the consequences of our actions He will NOT remove. I believe those are those "wood shed" experiences that He will not remove from us. They are there to teach us to walk in the right ways.

Statistically these marriages born out of an affair have almost zero percentage of making it.

In my own case I have never had an affair neither has my ex husband, but had he, and was now remarried to his mistress - I would hope that I would teach my children that although their Father's actions were wrong initially, that because he has now married her, she is to be respected as his wife now. What happens between him and his God is up to him. I can't judge the heart.

My job is to model respect and to teach my children how to navigate through life with God. Period.

Teaching them to disrespect ANY adult for ANY reason will only bring harm to that child in later life. IMO.

DZZZ

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Diamonzzz ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Teaching them to disrespect ANY adult for ANY reason will only bring harm to that child in later life. IMO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People do not deserve respect merely because they are over 21. Respect is something that must be earned.

Surely you do not mean that you would hope your children would respect a serial killer or a drug dealer just because he happened to be over 21?

I would hope my children would learn to make good judgements in deciding who would deserve their respect, based on their character rather than their age or occupation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> People do not deserve respect merely because they are over 21. Respect is something that must be earned. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my mind they do. Ok .. a little explanation is in order.

What does "respect" mean ....

Here is an extreme example for you. The neighbor
drinks, smokes and swears. Let's say my children overhear the guy over the fence.

He's having a beer, swearing at his dog, and smoking a cig.

Now, my children have been taught that in our house those aren't necessarily the values I want to model, nor would I be pleased see them do those behaviors.

The kids know that as their mother I don't stand for those values, but do I say things to little Johnny like .....

"See those dirty rotten sinners next door John... God is about to fry their sorry little butts unless they change". "In fact I don't want you to even feel you have to acknowledge Mr. Neighbour if he speaks to you, you don't have to respect him."

If I were to see my child acting in a disrespectful way toward him (for example, rolling their eyes, not speaking when spoken too, not making eye contact and general disregard for manners) even though I might not approve of their lifestyle .. do I not challenge and address the behavior of the child?

I know that is extreme but I am trying to make a point.

As the child matures and has his or own values he will see things clearly and be able evaluate this situation. He or she will make his own decisions about that. And surely kids do. At this point I am not expecting little Johnny to make any assumptions about right or wrong anyway.. sometimes they are just too small and immature to know these things. They get their values at 2 and 3 from US. I am making reference to little children here, not teenagers that are already forming their own opinions.

I remember as a child making judgments about my own Father and I clearly remember my Mother not tolerating disrespect for him. Now as an adult I can make my own conclusions concerning things.

Allowing disrespect in a child merely on the basis of OUR own prejudice is just causing the child to take on OUR offenses and not even their own.

At this point that child is only reflecting what is being taught. If we teach tolerance, forgiveness and graciousness that same child is going to learn to extend mercy.

In my mind I do not equate respect with agreeing with their values. Respect is about acknowedleging an individual's rightful place.
I am not saying you even have to LIKE a person to respect them.

I might not agree with how my ex and his partner became a partnership, nor like the way he is choosing to live, but I am sure not going to stick my head in the sand and refuse to move on acknowledging that they are indeed married, just because I am bitter.

I have always tried to teach my boys to value the person, flaws, warts and all. I never taught my children to expect perfection. That is black and white thinking. EVERY human is going to make mistakes.

I expect people will always sin and disappoint us but they also can change. I have always taught my kids to hope for the best and not judge.
We can't see another's heart.

Maybe last year your ex was an unrepentant adulterer but maybe he's had a change of heart this very day, how do you know? You have to be willing to LET them change.

I love what Jesus said about not casting the first stone .....

Sorry I babbled on Nellie1 I am very passionate about this because I am one that has needed the forgiveness of God in areas and I can't imagine holding someone to a prision sentence and not respecting them. At least on some level.

Again, respect to me is not agreeing with their lifestyle, respect is merely acknowledging that they have a right their rightful place.

DZZZ

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Diamonzzz ]</small>

I don't know about yours, but my kids had their own opinions by the time they were verbal, and never hesitated to express them. If I had a neighbor who engaged in behaviors that I really didn't want my kids to copy I would certainly talk about it to my kids.

What is "in your heart" does not matter as much as the pattern of your actions. You are what you do. It is true that people make mistakes, and a single action may not determine who you are, but the pattern of actions over time does determine your character.

I think it is natural to be hurt and to strike out at those who hurt us and to not accept the ws/x's marraige to the op whether you are a Christian or not. I believe most people here are just venting.

I really don't recall any situations here where the BS is trying to ruin the x's marriage or life.

What I don't understand is how someone could say, they would be happy when their x marries the op.

Christians do preach forgiveness, but it just isn't that easy, just as it isn't easy to do away with our other sins/habits.