F4M, IMO you have lost the right to complain about your ex-H. You're there making food for the guy so you know what, he must not be so bad after all.

You know, if you want him in your life just say so and we'll all stop wasting our time telling you how to get him out of your life.

This whole thing is ludicrious. You go to a battered woman's outreach looking for help because your ex is this horrible abuser and yet you let him in(you can change the locks) and cook him dinner. What's wrong with this picture?

Really, just admit that you still want him in your life and we'll all back off.

Also, why would it be up to anyone who privately talks to your ex to ask him why he's not radically honest with you? That's not the job of the "friend" of your ex and it's not really anyone else's business but yours. If he decietful behavior bothers you so much then stop talking to him.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Not-so-Silent-Observer ]</small>

F4M, I hate to admit this but Baba has a point. One question I have is you know you he reads and posts here all of the time why do you tell us things that he really shouldn't know? Are you just somebody playing a game here? In away I hope you are because if you really do have the issues you describe here then it's just to sad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jillybean36:
<strong> F4M, I hate to admit this but Baba has a point. One question I have is you know you he reads and posts here all of the time why do you tell us things that he really shouldn't know? Are you just somebody playing a game here? In away I hope you are because if you really do have the issues you describe here then it's just to sad. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jillybean and Baba, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on here having watched the whole "Thinker/SNL" saga from day one.

F4M is still trying to push that magic guilt button in her ex in the hopes that he will miraculously become contrite and come home, thus the posting of everything even the stuff she shouldn't let him know. It's all a bunch of empty threats designed to frighten/guilt him into behaving how she wants. She wants to be sure he knows all this stuff, no sense in hiding it because then it won't have a chance of working.

Do any of you honestly believe she would press charges against him, hell, she can't even change the locks on the door.

SNL is a manipulator but I think F4M is too, just using a different set of weapons, guilt as opposed to bullying and financial control. She rails about him but then turns around and cooks for him. It's a way of saying "look at how nice I am to you when you're so mean to me." Guilt trip.

This whole situation is just one big mess with two people very skilled in their chosen weaponry using ever opportunity to score points on the other.

I wish someone like New_Beginning where here, she saw this long ago, even before it became painfully apparent.

NSSO, I'm sure you are right. Its just that it does look kind of funny when it continues with the same thing everyday. I remember the SNL/Thinker saga and I remember they were both told to leave the boards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jillybean36:
<strong> NSSO, I'm sure you are right. Its just that it does look kind of funny when it continues with the same thing everyday. I remember the SNL/Thinker saga and I remember they were both told to leave the boards. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jilly, I have to admit this whole thing looks wacky and if I didn't understand F4M's motivations I would agree.

Both where kicked off at one point but F4M was allowed on and SNL is probably using a IP mask to circumvent his ban. Doesn't matter though.

Seriously, this is the most screwed up situation I've seen yet on this board. I'm dead sure F4M is really doing and saying what she posts here and we are all watching the fall out of a woman who was overly dependent on her H for too long and so has no survival skills of her own. I don't wonder why SNL preaches female submission in marriage, look at how well it serves him. He's got the ex-w he cheated on, defrauded and divorced cooking for him and at one time was scraping the scaly skin from his head(ewww!)

As a formerly abused wife....would I let my ex in my house and make him his favorite dinner??NO NO NO NO NO I don't wanna be around the man. He's mean. And he didn't cause me to have any surgeries, just lots of bruises and fear.

I'm sorry, but if he abused you physically as you say he did, you wouldn't want to do this for him. And he wouldn't be able to walk in your door.

And trying to make him feel guilty will not work. He is not coming back. THis game won't work with him.

I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Rediculous? Yes, to many of us it is.

But try to look at it through the eyes of someone who's been emotionally and financially dependent on a man(h or father) through their entire life and always managed to hold things together via this push-pull of guilt and doing good deeds.

Who knows, I might be talking outta my butt but remembering the relationship both SNL and F4M described between F4M and her father and the apparent relationship between F4M and SNL it's hard not to draw the conclusion that I see.

NSSO,

I have tried to look at it in a different way. I was in the same position the Faith is in. I was with my ex from the ages of 16-30. And we have 3 kids together. And I've tried to understand where she's coming from, but I can't anymore.

Either she's never gonna get it or this is just some ridiculous game to gain sympathy from her ex which is not working. INSANITY IS DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT OUTCOME!!! I think she needs to get a new counselor. And she doesn't take any advice given to her. She says she will but she doesn't. The locks haven't been changed. and has she called the credit reporting agencies yet? I doubt it. If she is serious about ever making a new and better life for herself, she needs to stop going in circles.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mitzi:
<strong> NSSO,

I have tried to look at it in a different way. I was in the same position the Faith is in. I was with my ex from the ages of 16-30. And we have 3 kids together. And I've tried to understand where she's coming from, but I can't anymore.

Either she's never gonna get it or this is just some ridiculous game to gain sympathy from her ex which is not working. INSANITY IS DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT OUTCOME!!! I think she needs to get a new counselor. And she doesn't take any advice given to her. She says she will but she doesn't. The locks haven't been changed. and has she called the credit reporting agencies yet? I doubt it. If she is serious about ever making a new and better life for herself, she needs to stop going in circles.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think quite a lot of this is the guilt game. Keep in mind that there is a pay-off here, he still comes around and allows her to feel for a short time that nothing has changed. Note too that in the threats he makes she mentions him not having anything to do with her anymore. That is the threat that motivates because she wants him to stay put and perhaps work his guilt enough to move him to reconcile.

I know she'll say she doesn't want him as he is now, but she does want him as he was then. Now, does that make it sound like he was a horrible abuser through their entire marriage? Not to me it doesn't. Controlling, yup, but then there are people that prefer to be controlled and have a hard time living without it. F4M seems to be damaged so much by 25 years of this, that living without that controlling presence seems impossible for her right now.

I remeber the incident that caused the injury and quite frankly I think both had a hand in it. Both were acting foolishly that night and both were pushing buttons like it was going out of style. He should have taken her smaller size into consideration and called the cops instead of trying to get her to the door, granted.

However, her actions show that she is not in mortal fear of him and wants him around. All these suggestions about how to cut him free are wasted as that's not what she wants. She wants him around and also the freedom to kveitch in public about what a monster he is.

This whole situation is very sad and very bizzarre.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> XH was here again, not by my asking him to be here. He came cause he walked in. More of his controlling behavior, and no respect for me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, F4M, at least you realize two things.
He is controlling.
He has no respect for you.

He has your number, girl. He can read you like a book. He knows exactly how you will act or react.
To any situation.
But you already know that, don't you?

So why don't you do just ONE little thing (to start with). One little thing that shows him that you have a mind of your own, and you plan to use it.
CHANGE THE LOCKS ON THE DOOR.

Sorry, but I do not believe that there is ANY reason the locks cannot be changed.
Or that an additional lock cannot be added to the door.
Somehow, some way.
Even if you have to spend some of your child support for a new door.

You do receive child support for the ONE remaining minor living with you, don't you?
Using part of child support for a LOCKED DOOR would not be inappropriate.
The child deserves to be safe.
NO ONE is safe in an unlocked home, under any conditions.

In another post (perhaps on another thread) you stated that someone was possibly interested in buying your house.
I am sure he, nor anyone else would want to buy a house that is not (at least) protected with door locks.
So if nothing else, consider it an investment.
Even SNL or SUB or whomever your ex is could have no qualms with that.

Also, of the other three children who live with you...the ones who are legally of age...
Why is it that they are not helping you with your monthly expenses?
I believe I read somewhere that your D is in her last year studying aeronautical engineering. Surely she is receiving (with the brains it would take for THAT major) some sort of help in the form of scholarships, loans, grants.
Yet, she pays no rent? And borrows from her grandmother's credit card to buy a car? That does not make sense.
And the other two...they are healthy, able bodied young adults aren't they? Capable of holding down at least part time jobs?

Quite frankly F4M, I am surprised anyone is responding here and offering advice.
As WIFFTY said,
"blah, blah, blah,

same crap, another different post. . ."

You have to do something to help yourself!!
You DO want to help yourself, don't you?
Why not start with changing those locks?!?!?

It almost sounds like a type of Munchausen (sp) syndrome. Doing things to gain attention.

And I understand that some people like to be controlled, or have lived like that for so long that they can't live otherwise. And I understand wanting the person that he was. But you would think that she would see that he's not that anymore.

And no I don't think he was as abusive as she paints him to be. Yes, it caused damage to her but he wasn't being any more horrible than she was. She is not the victim that she claims to be.

And I also understand that she is lonely and sad. It's happened to all of us.

Honestly, I think she needs to plan B and get another counselor. Other than that, there's no need to give advice. She won't take it.

Maybe one day, she'll come to her senses and start living for herself. When she does, I'm throwing a huge party! LOL

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

and maybe some people are "forced" into being "controlling". The word covers a lot of ground, and obscures the fact everyone is "controlling" and use different tactics (guilt just being the flip side of aggression...guys typically use aggression and women use guilt...although they can and do change roles). The problem in a marriage (and I see it all the time here in peoples stories) is someone has to do something....if the other partner won't step to the plate and the other does, all of sudden they are "controlling"....not so virginia.

Marsha (cali) is a good example of this. A good woman, motivated, and is a take charge person....her H defaulted alot, and she felt obligated to fill the vacuum....which of course led to an unhealthy marriage and outcome. Not until she realized this, and stopped, did anything positive start to happen. Perhaps f4m has difficulty with taking emotional responsibility, given what she has posted about her childhood family dynamics, this is understandable...and perhaps she picked a H who is overly empathic, and sensitive, who was willing (unfortuneately) to pick up that slack...and efforts over the years to stop were met with a lot of aggression and guilt...and heck they had kids to consider. So the dance continued until the marriage self-destructed, and her H stopped dancing.

That could be it, see it here quite often, you just usually don't get to see both sides as you did with snl and thinker......but what do I know. Just my thoughts on the subject of control and dependentcy....dependentcy can be every bit as aggressive and controlling as anything else. I too have watched f4m story and feel bad for her, but she has to want to help herself, no one, including her exh can do it for her. As long as she insists on seeing herself as a victim, and her exh as a perpetrator, it is unlikely she will be receptive or act on healthy advice. I too hope she recovers well.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Come now SUBFD, you know quite a bit since you are a player in this drama. I didn't fall off the turnip truck just yesterday and since you never bother to change your quote/response posting style it's very easy to know who you are, IP mask or no.

Now, having said that I will agree with you, dependency can be a very aggressive and daunting behavior pattern. However, if you feed that dependency then you are as guilty of manipulation as the person who's dependent because of course there is a pay off there too. As you are so fond of saying people don't do things if they're not getting something out of it.

I'm not willing to paint you as a monster or her as a helpless victim. But her ex-h is doing things that are crippling progress and seemingly knows this and is doing nothing to change it.

Also, I seem to remember SNL posting about wanting to remain "caring friends" with the ex if at all possible and I don't see a problem with that. However, even the closest of friends have boundries. For example:

My closest friends are not allowed to just waltz into my home. They need to call first and find out if it's okay with me that they come over.

My closest friends do not have any property in my name. No cell phones and no credit cards.

My closest friends do not disregard my feelings and do things contrary to my wishes. If they do we do not remain friends.

I realize ex's are a bit different but the above are commonsense ground rules of any close relationship outside of marriage.

SNL with his comings and goings does not observe these rules and so acts more like an H with some of the privlidges and none of the responsibilites. This is wrong, cruel and very manipulative behavior. It gives false hope and creates an illusion of cohesiveness that is not in actuality there.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Not-so-Silent-Observer ]</small>

It is the ultimate GAME.

SUFDB, SNL, LA, AND FAITH4ME ARE ALL "ONE PERSON"....

I must say it is brilliant.

Gets our blood boiling trying to help the "victim side" and trying to argue with the "evil perpetrator side".

It is kind of a "challange" for us on MB.

I wonder if the person in the game acts the same ways in real life. Like they are a "total victim" sometimes and a total "ignore the rules and break in" at other times.

Could be quite a "split" in the personality there!

I don't know Baba, SNL doesn't even have the motivation to try and change his posting style to hide his identity, I rather doubt he would be motivated enough to learn a new posting style and also a different way of using language.

Nsso, I see your point..

Another thing, Baba. F4M's martyr-guilt-manipulative style is totally foriegn to the man without a conscience. He can't even come close to faking it.

Also, F4M's undying adherence to insanity is demonstrated with a few other people - Try out Lefty's history and you'll see what I mean.

Thirdly, There are a couple of people who actually have talked with F4M and SNL on the phone and know them to be separate and distinct people.

Baba,
I thought you meant that all 4 were the same, and have been all along.
So are you thinking that there really was and F4M, but perhaps now SNL has taken on all 4 "personalities" and it is not the real F4M who is posting now?

Several months ago a Moderator (don't remember which Forum) was checking into the SNL, SUFDB debate. Do you know or remember how that turned out?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JillandJack:
<strong>
Several months ago a Moderator (don't remember which Forum) was checking into the SNL, SUFDB debate. Do you know or remember how that turned out? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suppose they couldn't conclusively say it was him so they didn't ban the subfd identity. If you use a proxy to go online you can make it seem like you're posting from the other end of the country. It's not hard to do. But it does make it very hard to prove who you are or in this case who you are not.