My H moved out of the house a couple days ago, and I went to see an attorney today. I found out that in FL, because it is a "no fault" state, not only do I have NO say in wether we get divorced, but everything is generally split 50/50, and alimony, even rehabiltative is questionable. This, even though I have no college education and have never worked since we were married, and have been a stay at home mom, AND I don't even want the divorce! Now I may be given only $600 per month for me and two kids in a place where apartments run at least $1000 per month. Even working full time, I couldn't afford to live after childcare costs, heck, even before childcare costs! And I refuse to allow WH to decide the fate for my life to be a single mom working a minimum wage job, never seeing her kids. I will finish college, and somehow, he'll pay for it.
What does all this say about the sanctitiy of marriage? Even the true existence of it? Apparantly vows and signed legal documents professing our commitment to each other are a big JOKE! I don't know why the state even bothers recognizing legal marriages.
There is NO protection for someone like me, someone who put all her faith and trust in her husband, who professed to not believe in divorce. What advice can I now give? Do not trust, protect yourself, because you can trust no one, not even the one person in the world you're supposed to trust completely.

What do your expectations of what your H should pay for have to do with the sanctity of marriage?

Throughout your post, all you are ranting about is money. You are 24 years old! As an adult, you are expected to support yourself. You receive, according to you, $600 per month in support. $600 per month will support your children and frankly, where did you get the idea that your H should take care of you? If you walked out of the marriage, would you expect to support your H?

Please justify your position because I really would like to understand.

My point is that it is crazy to me that someone can make vows to love, honor and cherish their spouse till death, and enter into an arrangement in which they are financially responsible for that person and then for no good reason, walk away leaving them with no education, no work experience and little money. Why do I expect H to support me? Because it is HIS selfish decision to throw his family away. I do not want it, he does. Just because he decides that nothing we've ever believd in applies to him anymore, that does not relieve him of the responsibility to take care of those who are dependent upon him. I do, of course, intend on supporting myself as soon as I can. But, being that I gave up an education to be with him and move around constantly (he's in the military) and stay at home with our kids, I feel I at least deserve the chance to make a decent life for myself. And I don't know where you live, but $600 will NOT support 3 people where I live in FL. Low income housing runs over $800 per month.
H is a grown man as well, who has only himself to support. My point is that FL should not make it so easy for someone to walk away from serious commitments they made - that it does not encourage people to take marriage seriously.
Believe me, money is not nearly as important to me as the fact that my H is tearing our family apart, but when you have 2 small children and have never lived completely on your own before, it is a pretty big concern, don't you think?!
And tell me, why should me and my children have to face poverty (yes, $600/month is well belive poverty level where I live) just because H decides he wants to do his own thing and live for himself? And before you say it, yes, of course I will work too, but do you realize that I have 2 kids that will need childcare? It will work out being almost the same whether I worked or not. That would be my choice - put my kids in daycare with strangers all day and pay almost everything I could bring in to them to take care of MY kids, or care for them myself and work very little or not at all. Don't you see the incredible selfishness of H for putting us in this position? It just angers me that FL allows it, and doesen't even care whether I want the divorce or not.

faithhopelove04,

--My point is that it is crazy to me that someone can make vows to love, honor and cherish their spouse till death,

TR--And this has to do with WHAT concerning the State laws of Florida??? Yes, it's crazy that your husband went into your marriage with such little consideration of what those things meant--
BUT they were HIS VOW's not the state's Vows--

--and enter into an arrangement in which they are financially responsible for that person and then for no good reason, walk away leaving them with no education, no work experience and little money.

TR--and this is the state's responsibility that YOU have an education HOW??? Why didn't YOU think about these things BEFORE YOU got married??? What if two day's after your last child was born your H was hit by a car--would it be the State's responsibility to educate YOU so you can get a job?? I don't think so--

--Why do I expect H to support me? Because it is HIS selfish decision to throw his family away. I do not want it, he does. Just because he decides that nothing we've ever believed in applies to him anymore, that does not relieve him of the responsibility to take care of those who are dependent upon him.

TR--Actually, He will be responsible to take care of HIS children--they depend on him--not that YOU don't--but was it your choice to stay at home with the kids and not get and education??? or was it a controlling if you go to work I'll divorce you--marriage??


--But, being that I gave up an education to be with him and move around constantly (he's in the military) and stay at home with our kids, I feel I at least deserve the chance to make a decent life for myself.

TR--Again, the state recognizes it was YOUR choice to give up on YOUR education--


---H is a grown man as well, who has only himself to support.

TR--No he also has children to support--and the military can make sure they are taken care of--


--My point is that FL should not make it so easy for someone to walk away from serious commitments they made - that it does not encourage people to take marriage seriously.--

TR--And you know something--most states around the country are this way--it's not their responsiblity to teach People to BE responsible--
This is something HIS PARENT'S SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT HIM as a child--it's not the State's fault they failed--nor is it the state's responsibility to ensure people take their personal choices seriously--this is an internal problem--not a state problem--

Believe me, money is not nearly as important to me as the fact that my H is tearing our family apart, but when you have 2 small children and have never lived completely on your own before, it is a pretty big concern, don't you think?!

TR--And they won't be living on their own now--unless you are planning on abandoning them as well--and going to work full time is NOT abandoning YOUR children--

But yes, what your husband is doing--is wrong--
I agree 100%--

--And tell me, why should me and my children have to face poverty (yes, $600/month is well belive poverty level where I live) just because H decides he wants to do his own thing and live for himself?

TR--Is that what they figured your child support based on the states program for income or are those just figures the lawyer threw out at you?

And as far as alimony is concerned that is typically based on length of marriage--same with your being eligible for any of his Military retirement benefits--but you may be able to see about getting temporary alimony until you have more training--but again--even that is dependant upon your age, length of marriage and so forth--


--And before you say it, yes, of course I will work too, but do you realize that I have 2 kids that will need childcare?

TR--Yes, and you can apply for assistance in that area--check with Episcipal Services--they usually base child care rates on income--

---It will work out being almost the same whether I worked or not. That would be my choice - put my kids in daycare with strangers all day and pay almost everything I could bring in to them to take care of MY kids, or care for them myself and work very little or not at all.

TR--So why not look into that as an option?? and again check w/ ES and see what they can do help you in that area--as I know they do give extra monies to those who go through them to help purchase food and such--for daycares--

--Don't you see the incredible selfishness of H for putting us in this position?

TR--Yes, I do--but that is not the STATES FAULT!!

--It just angers me that FL allows it, and doesen't even care whether I want the divorce or not.--

TR--Again, it's NOT JUST Florida--all states have similiar laws--but you can inform your lawyer that you would like to go to marriage counseling to see about working on the issues--

The state also requires you BOTH go to a Children of Divorce Class--that goes over the effect's of divorce on children--and so forth--so before he get divorced he will be required to take the class--

I can understand your concerns and don't mean to minimize your financial needs.

However, $600 in child support is not intended to support three people. You see, your H is paying 1/2 of the costs necessary to support two people -his children. You are responsible for supporting your children 1/2 as well and you are 100% responsible for supporting yourself. In that light, $1200. per month to support two children is entirely reasonable. What it costs to support yourself is in your hands.

Did you come into the marriage with a huge skill set that you have now lost? More than likely, you have exactly the same job skills now as you did then and yet now, you don't want a minimum wage position.

When two people marry, they don't suddenly gain title to one another. You don't own your H and your expectation that he will care for you are unrealistic. Immaterial of the reasons, I can choose to leave a marriage. Otherwise, I am not a partner, but a slave. Morally, I would disagree with your H, but legally, your position is simply out there.

That is my two cents and it is always possible that I am wrong; I just don't think so.

TR - I think you're being a bit, er, harsh.

I think faith's point is that the state laws - as you say, like most in this country - don't seem to pay any attention to those of us too naive to have adopted a prenuptual agreement - a "legal" binding contract. We were naive to believe that "responsibilities" would be recognized in divorce proceedings. I guess you would say, "Shame on you for being stooopid."

Consequently, using myself as an example, I was faithful, I supported my kids and a SAH Mom, I put my wife thru grad school, and I was willing to attempt to save my marriage - didn't want the divorce - despite my wife's affair. But she had the affair, moved out, got a divorce, and married OM - all unilateral decisions.

So, using faith's logic, why did I have to share all our assets 50/50 with my XW? Why do I have to pay child support to a financially independent woman whose combined earnings with her "soulmate" new husband are WAY over double mine?? Why isn't the law based on meeting committments and responsibilities and divorce settlements decided on such responsibilities?

Want to have an affair? Want to move out? Want to divorce and marry OP? Sure! Go right ahead!! Just don't expect to take any shared assets shared in good faith on the basis of reasonably expected norms of behavior!

This is what faith and "faith" mean.

Yet, any shmuck can take any scumbag to court for a breach of contract for not doing whatever their legally binding contract required - no matter how trivial. So much for the "sanctity" of marriage.

I won't pretend to know why this is the way it is. But I bet it has something to do with the difficulty of deciding who the "bad guy" is in any given situation in garden variety divorces.

I propose that in the case of verifiable "adultery", that the laws shold be different.

Please visit this post on GQ II:
Not too far OT: "Sanctity" of Marriage

So, while faith should not - and I don't think she said this - count on the state to meet her needs. I believe it's entirely reasonable that cheaters should pay the cost of their decisions.

Play the role, pay the toll.

ok faith I am going to back off of you vs TR and SPT......

I am a divorced father with 2 girls. I live in VA which is a no-fault state also..... however I was married to my ex for 16 years... and I do not know how long you and your H have been married...

As TR said most states have similar laws on the books but each state sets its own calculations and requirements for CS and SS.....

In my case I pay $1500 per month CS and $2000 SS or rehabilitive support as some call it to an Ex that works part time and makes $30K a year....

In my thinking I do not mind the CS as these are my children.... But as to SS unlike you she has work and a skill..... she chose to leave.... so why do I have to pay....

As for you, I agree, if in the promise of marriage, the death do you part thing, the assumption was there that he would be there to provide for you and you for him, in each your own way. If the two of you chose you would be a SAHM and he was the provider that is a part of the agreement of marriage..... And as they say, homemakers do not get paid but if you look at the services provided and tallied it up a dollar value could be placed on it.... However there is no demand for homemakers in the business industry.... And I believe there are statuates that cover that, I know at least in VA.

If I were you I think I would see another lawyer or seek help from a womans support group.

my two cents.... and if the law is that way in FL then I wished the heck I had filed for divorce down there!!!!

GSN,
Does your SS go on forever?
Or is it a limitless fund for her?
(and no, is sure isn't fair that you have to pay it!!)

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: JillandJack ]</small>

Faith, there's no guarentees in life and vows are only as good as the people making them. I would caution anyone about putting total trust in anyone(Harley says the same) and to always plan for the unforseen and unfortunate.

The support your h would pay would be solely for the children, not you. The divorce laws these days recognize that a woman can work and take care of herself and a man is not to be enslaved to a lifetime of paying SS. Should you get some rehabilitative support, probably, but I don't believe that anyone owes anyone else a living longterm, except for minor children.

My mother raised two kids by herself and my father didn't even bother to pay CS. It can be done, it's not easy but it can be done and unfortuantely is the price paid for putting one's well-being in another falliable human's hands.

For better or for worse, marriage is an "at will" state. I feel for you and know all about one spouse forcing a divorce on another.

I can sympathize. Missouri is a "no fault" state also. W is citing NO marital misconduct on my part and instead used the "irretrievably broken" catch-all as her reason for D. I can play that game, too, however. On my response to the divorce petition I DID cite marital misconduct on her part - abandonment and mental anguish. I can't wait to see how the judge rules on this one. I feel that "no fault" D is a big scourge on the institution of M. To me, it's only fair that the petitioner must prove, with complete evidence and documentation, any misconduct on the part of the other spouse. D is too easy to get and leaves people like this lady in the position she's in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GSN,
Does your SS go on forever?
Or is it a limitless fund for her?
(and no, is sure isn't fair that you have to pay it!!) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It goes on for half the life of the marriage.... hence 8 years....... The other thing is, that she can even cohabit with her ROM and I still have to pay her.... Talk about prostitution...... or call it a 3 way.... she gets to screw rich old man and gets to screw me......

and not it is not fair, but the sanctity of marriage and affairs do not account or attest anymore. the courts view marriage as throwaway and that is how they treat them.... AS my lawyer said, To protect themselves (the lawyers and judges) that are having affairs they ignore them in figuring Custody, alimony, and SS...

in the Fathers are Parents Too group I am in you would be surpised that of the 16 local members that meet every two weeks, between the 16 of us total we pay roughly $150K per month, and only one of us has 50/50 custody of our children....of the 16 of us, only two have ex's that don't work. of the 16 of us, 16 of us did not want the divorce---- the ex did........ of the 16 of us 14 of the divorces were due to affairs....... 1 by the father, the other 15 was the ex...... of the 16 of us, only one is a 1st marriage, the rest of us have had 2-4 marriages.......of the 16 of us, hopefully all 16 of us have learned a good lesson.... and will either never marry again or will definitly have pre-nups...... of the 16 of us, 14 are still fighting for changes in custody, CS and/or SS payments at an average of $50K for fees, PIs, PC/P recommendations etc.....

I think there is some misunderstanding regarding my original post. I did not mean that the state should be responsible for my education or anything else, only that they should hold H responsible. And I was 18 when I married him after having graduatedwith a 3.75 gpa from a high school for the intellectually gifted, and gave up a FL Bright Futures scholarship after one semester to marry him. Stupid decision on my part? Guess so. Shoulda listened to my dad after all. But I truly believed that H and I would not get divorced because we did not believe in divorce. Naive? Obviously, but I believed it with all my heart.
I am just saying - what's the point of signing marriage papers and saying vows if they are hardly binding in any way? It just seems to me that since I am dependent on H for all my bills and this was a known, agreed on part of our marriage, that since he is choosing to leave for no good reason, he should be responsible for paying all my basic bills until I get through school and get back on my feet. And it's state law that's needed to make him do that! That's why Busch is pressing to make divorce harder to get.

faithhopelove04,

Something I am learning--


Marriage is a convenant contract between Us, Our spouse and God--

Not Us, our spouse, God and the State--

Many around our country have stated and have made it perfectly clear they do NOT want the Church involved in State Affairs--and the Church does not want the State involved in Church Affairs--

So there in lies a huge conflict of interest on this issue--

--I did not mean that the state should be responsible for my education or anything else, only that they should hold H responsible.

TR--So find a REALLY GOOD Lawyer--who can make this possible--

--I am just saying - what's the point of signing marriage papers and saying vows if they are hardly binding in any way?

TR--Do the two of you belong to a church, meaning did you join a church together? If so go to the pastor and talk to Him--have Him confront your husband--and allow God to work in that way--

The only way the state is involved in your marriage/divorce is that because it is a contract that one party is breaking--they can place set guidelines He has to adhere to--and His being military is to your advantage--because anything the court says--He will have to abide with--


--It just seems to me that since I am dependent on H for all my bills and this was a known, agreed on part of our marriage, that since he is choosing to leave for no good reason, he should be responsible for paying all my basic bills until I get through school and get back on my feet.

TR--Like I said...Get a GOOD LAWYER!! A Good lawyer could make this happen--

--And it's state law that's needed to make him do that! That's why Bush is pressing to make divorce harder to get.--

TR--Actually, no--it's a changed heart that needs to make this happen--and Bush realizing that might not happen has taken it upon the government to work to make it harder to get divorced--

Faith,

I live in FL--and was also a SAHM for years--

So I do understand what your saying--but at the same time--I also understand many aspects from the states perspective--because I also had a REALLY GOOD LAWYER!!

And the reason States recognize marriages at all is for cases JUST LIKE THIS!! For those spouses who are left--so they have SOME form of protection

Years ago--they didn't--and when/if a spouse left-the states had no recourse to even provide child support--so be thankful they even have that right now--

TR - I don't think you understand.

This is not about church and God vs the state. This is about the earthly marriage contract - the business part.

The state could become involved if it chooses - and remain ENTIRELY separate from the spiritual part.

What faith is talking about is the "business" aspects of a marriage - not the spiritual/moral part.

Let God enact His judgement and the state enact theirs separately. It's "business" separate from "morals" or righteousness or holiness or whatever spiritual semantic you want to place on it.

Let's face it - the marriage license the state or local municipality issues is an earthly, human LEGAL instrument - issued by people to cover the human and legal, earthly aspects of the union.

Standing up in a ceremony presided over by a guy/gal in a robe as a agent of God with a bible in an ornate room or on a beach or in a garden before family and friends is a separate, spiritual proceeding. It's not even NECESSARY to do this to become married in the eyes of the local government!!!

The vows are entirely different from the "contract."

Woe be to the state to try to participate in the spiritual consequences of an infidelity.

And the Big Guy need not care of the "money" issues. These pale in comparison to His judgement, I bet you would say.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>This is not about church and God vs the state. This is about the earthly marriage contract - the business part.

The state could become involved if it chooses - and remain ENTIRELY separate from the spiritual part.

What faith is talking about is the "business" aspects of a marriage - not the spiritual/moral part.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. Please name for me any other kind of contract in which one party can break the terms of the contract, take the other party to court, and expect to be rewarded for breaking the contract at the expense of the party who has kept the contract.

I am obligated to pay spousal support to the woman who left me, even though she has a professional degree, a decent job, and no dependents. Not even her friends think that makes any kind of sense.

Okay, lets see if I can understand this point. You all seem to believe that marriage is a contract. Someone please read me the terms of their contract.

Marriage is not a contract. It is a State recognized compact. The terms of which are set by the State in the absence of terms set by the individuals involved. In essence, it is share and share alike with no penalty for departure.

If you want penalties, sign a prenup.

My point entirely is that nobody owns another person and Faith's original posting sounded suspiciously like she felt 'owed' a living. I have an ex like that.

The fact of the matter is that we as individuals make choices. Faith made the choice to marry and to forego a minor amount of educational opportunity. That was a choice. In light of the turnout of that choice, it wasn't the best choice, but how could she know? We are all young at one time and make those kinds of choices.

What bothers me about our culture is this idea that somehow each of us is 'owed' our blah, blah, blah. When we are sick, we are owed healthcare even to the degree of some highly experimental procedure costing millions of dollars. When we lose our job, we expect employers to hire us when we aren't qualified. In this case, Faith wants education and wants the H to pay. Based on what? You chose to forego an opportunity based on what someone else said? Don't you have some responsibility for that decision as well? The fact is that there are so many ways to attend school via scholarships and grants that it is not necessary to lean on your H. If he is military (MacDill?, by the way) then after $600 in CS, you can pretty much forget anything else - ever heard of blood from turnips?

Lean on yourself.

worthatry


--TR - I don't think you understand.

TR---Actually I understand more than you realize--

My comment about the church and state--has more to do with how our society has changed their view of the biblical context of not only marriage--but many other aspects of life--

The Government as a whole---does not want the CHURCH values and moral absolutes involved in how
we live our lives--

They do not recognize the vows people take before "GOD" anymore in terms of being the same as a business contract--why?? because to them
God does NOT exist--

That is why divorce laws over the years have changed--why adultry is no longer looked at in terms of the divorce--and why they have 'no-fault' divorce laws--

why children are told they can not pray at their graduation cermonies--

why they are trying to take "IN GOD WE TRUST"
off of our money--

and why they want to take "Under God" out of the Pledge of alligence to our flag--

if God exist's--then they will be held accountable
for their choices--so they continue to pass laws that say God is not welcome in our society---

A covenant made before God can't be legal in their eyes and has no jusidiction in the courts--because to them God doesn't exist--so if the contract/covenant was made before a God who to them *doesn't* exist--how can they legally enforce it??? It goes against their own belief system---

Florida does have a Gov. who believes God does exist..and is trying to pass laws that reflect that--but he's fighting a very strong battle against those who oppose his views--

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

I intend to drag this process out as long as I can because it gives me more time to change myself, enlist prayer support, and PRAY FERVENTLY that the scales will drop from my W's eyes.

As a Christian, I will someday stand before Jesus and give an account of what went on in my M. I am far from perfect but I never touched her in anger, never committed adultery, never abandoned her. She is honest enough to state that I am not guilty of marital misconduct. Unfortunately, with "no fault" D, she doesn't even NEED a reason. What should have been a church/family matter has been blown completely out of proportion, and her "easy out" is perpetuated by the "no fault" movement. She will stand before Jesus someday, also.

This is breaking my heart and I cry for us all - so does Jesus!

Marriage is a crap shoot. You are gambling on both you and your partner's abilities to establish and maintain a marriege.

You chose to delay or skip further education and establishing a career in order to raise a family. You could have pursued those goals before children, but that is not what happened here. Now you are faced with providing 1/2 the support for your children and supporting yourself.

Supporting yourself you would have had to do if you did not marry. Basically your H has paid for you to spend time staying at home raising your children, which you would not have been able to do without him.

He spent 6 years establishing a marriage, supporting a stay at home wife and raising a family that is now effectively gone except for visitation.

You don't seem to be missing much from your H except the financial support which you expect to continue.

Your H now faces the probabilty of not having custody, paying temporary support for you and paying CS for a very long time.

What does he get out of this?
What do you get out of this?

BTW, there is an incredibly amount of support in the form of grants and scholarships for single moms for college as well as dirt cheap housing at most universities in the state of Florida.

Whether married or not, you are responsible for your own well-being. It sounds like both of you have taken this marriage for granted.