Yesterday I went and signed off on my divorce papers, then went to see my H to pick up a cheque he'd agreed to give me to help with the legal fees. Well we talked and talked...to make a long story short, there are still so many feelings there, there is no better feeling than being held by someone you love and with whom you've shared so many happy memories....I have called and emailed my lawyer asking her if she can file everything BUT the divorce papers themselves ("everything but" = the financial separation papers).

Do you think it would be possible for her to sit on those papers, even though I've signed them??

Sigh,

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

jen jen jen, you know what people are going to say, so I will say it for (most) them. Have you lost your mind? He is doing what he always does, manipulate you for one purpose only....this didn't end up with a bed session did it? Do not listen to your emotions, they betray you constantly....you have this figured out...finish it. You have the rest of your life to makeup and remarry him if you want...but do so from a position of strengh...where you are emotionally, financially, psychologically healthy, and free to choose as you wish. Do not let him mess with your head.

My heart is doing the talking today I guess.

He knows that I've asked the lawyer to try to hold the papers, and his response was to do that if it's what I want but that he's making no guarrantees.

A few important things he said that run through my head today are:
a) that he had booked a vacation for us last summer and hadn't told me about it yet when I started the divorce proceedings last June. He had wanted to go away with me last July, but clammed up when I hit him with those papers. He said he'd punished me for 1 year, but still had feelings for me so he wanted to try going away with me.
b) that his feelings for me were really coming back strong in Sept. when we spent lots of time together, but when I found out he wouldn't take me on his family's x-mas Cuba trip, or wouldn't at least not go himself, that that was the deciding factor in me going back to my lawyer in Oct. Really, in my mind it was his unwillingness to make a commitment to me.
c) both of his little EA girlfriends that replaced me emotionally during the time we were separated have boyfriends now. He says he treated them like crap, of course they'd want to be with someone other than him.

I just don't want to divorce him and then remarry him it is going to work out. I'd rather just stay married if at all possible.

I was away in Las Vegas last weekend, a place I'd only ever been to with my H, and it just wasn't the same being there without him. The happy memories of all the good years together came flooding back.

I'm rambling, trying to make sense of my own feelings I guess.

Is my H really the demon I make him out to be, or is it just easier for me that way? I really worry sometimes that my decisions to go ahead with the divorce have been more about what MB people and my family tell me than about what will truly make me happy.

Jen

he is not a demon jen, that it isn't about him, it is about you. He does not behave in a worthy manner, or a safe manner. He does not make or keep committments, he only uses you for sex, he won't do any of the require MB type stuff (protection, counselling, accountability, etc.). If HE wants to stay married, HE should be offering a plan reflecting all those things and carrying it out...HE IS NOT...so the issue is always about you and why you will have no boundaries and let yourself be manipulated/used.

btw...you don't divorce to remarry.... the point was no one is dying, if he cleans up his act, and if you still wanted to (after you get away from him and your own deep dysfunctional fog), and you have a LOOOONNNGGGG healthy pre-marital relationship, you can remarry. If you are afraid to divorce cause then remarriage is unlikely, then the marriage isn't worth anything anyways....you cannot lose someone because of ones legal status.

My lawyer has put the Dv papers on hold, as I requested, no problem. I have up to one year to tell her to go ahead without additional steps or costs.

I am not "afraid to divorce cause then remarriage is unlikely". I just would prefer to never divorce at all than to publicly go through the humiliation of divorce and then have to remarry later. I feel like my H and I both have too much pride to suffer through the public humiliation of a divorce and then later choosing to remarry.

I hear you though about my H needing to make a commitment and a specific plan about how we'd work on things. That's exactly what I need from him if he wants to remain married.

Putting things on hold doesn't really hurt anyone; it just gives us both some more time to figure our relationship out.

Jen

It is your life, and your drama, you have to decide of course. However, one doesn't divorce or not because of any concern over what anyone else wants or thinks...there is absolutely nothing humiliating about divorce or marriage....one does what they want, it is far far to important for it to matter what anyone else thinks...it is your life. Hopefully your reasons are of more substance than some shallow concern over humiliation...

So what now, what is his plan? He hasn't one.....hmmm, ok, give him a day or two...it is not that difficult jen....and absolutely do not give him anything until he does, talk is cheap, and he is a talker...stay away until he does something that means something.

You're right sufdb, he has no plan as of yet...and I'm giving him a few days...but I need for US to have a plan that we agree upon.

Well, now that I've broken the news to some of my friends that I lost my nerve and told my lawyer to hold back on the Dv papers, a few things are swirling in my mind.

For one, my friends are very disappointed, they are doing their best to be supportive too, but they don't see how or why my H would change his behaviour all of a sudden now.

Two, I am unable to spend time with my H because this weekend it's his grandfather's and 2 of his brothers' birthdays, so both his Friday and Saturday are all taken up, and Sunday is supposedly church and lunch with his mom, etc. So I won't get to have another proper conversation with him, or see him again until after the weekend.

Three, I am right back at wa

nting to make demands on my H, things like insisting that we spend at least 2 days a week together, that the time we spend together does NOT include him drinking alcohol, and that one of those 2 days is out and about in public, not hiding in his house. I'd also like to insist on counselling. However, when I said I was putting the papers on hold, he said, "Okay, if that's what you want, but I'm not making any guarrantees."

Anyone have any advice about setting out conditions for me being willing to stay married and work on things? I feel a real need for some control here, and at the same time a need to set some reasonable boundaries for myself, and not just take whatever crumbs and scraps he's willing to toss my way. It's been 19 months already...my patience is gone. I either want him to start truly working on this relationship, or I want out.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>...he has no plan as of yet...and I'm giving him a few days...but I need for US to have a plan that we agree upon.

...they don't see how or why my H would change his behaviour all of a sudden now.

...I'd also like to insist on counselling. However, when I said I was putting the papers on hold, he said, "Okay, if that's what you want, but I'm not making any guarrantees."

...I feel a real need for some control here, and at the same time a need to set some reasonable boundaries for myself, and not just take whatever crumbs and scraps he's willing to toss my way.

....I either want him to start truly working on this work on this relationship, or I want out.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For me the deal would boil down to

No Counseling = No Deal"

Now I know we have no control over what spouses/xs do. And we have not contol over how they participate in counseling but, for me, you go and you work or you leave.

If he isn't willing to get a mirror, look in it, see that he is not perfect - that he has a role in the mess and needs to work on himself, then the party is over.

My separation had been going on for 2.5 years when I finally got so stressed out and fed up that I had to have an EKG and an attorney.

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]</small>

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]</small>

As I have so often stated...It only takes one to decide on divorce. It only takes one to change their mind as well. Your lawyer will do as you tell them. They are still getting paid regardless. If you have already filed for divorce you still have a minimum timeline of around 90 days to finalize the decree of dissolution. All you have right now is an agreed divorce. If you change your mind that is great. I would only do so with the conviction to change on both you and your husband's part. Set your boundaries and work on your self. Their are many great books you could read that may be helpful. I do expect that your feelings alone are not enough. Your husband would need to make some changes as well or you would just have to accept the way he has become. That will likely bring you no joy. Best of luck! God Bless.

Jen, I don’t usually post to you, but wow! this hit home.

Let’s reframe putting the DV on hold. It’s on hold so that you can see how serious your husband is about keeping you in his life. It’s not so that he can see if he really wants you in his life.

I would suggest you have a time limit on the holding pattern. I think something reasonable, like 3 months. And you don’t tell him you have a dead line, either. He’ll turn the deadline into a threat.

Next, he goes to counseling with you. Period. Otherwise, you call the lawyer up. This is not controlling anything but your own life. If he goes to counseling, use that time to watch him. Take notes on everything. Wiftty told me to do that, and I had to learn the hard way he was right. If your H says he’ll do something and doesn’t, be sure to bring it up. If he evades the question, bring the discussion back around and ask him to answer it.

See if he’s actually doing anything other than manipulating you.

Remember, you’re the one who decided that divorce was the wisest decision. You’re the one who shouldn’t be making any guarantees. (Be sure and tell him that you won’t make any guarantees either.)

Time limit indeed....I'm thinking until March right now.

I haven't heard from him since last week. We had the big talk last Tues. We talked again briefly on the Wed. Thursday I didn't hear from him. Friday I emailed him to ask if we could spend some time together on the weekend, he said no due to 3 family birthdays that were going to take up his time on the weekend. I haven't heard from him since his negative reply to my email. I reached out last, so I'm waiting for him to reach out to me.

I'm wondering if he's ticked off that I cashed the cheque he gave me last week and so he's not calling, or he knows this is the week that I have my period so he's not calling. I hope he's just busy with work and his family, so he's not calling.

The return of this limbo is gnawing at the back of my mind, and becoming very unsettling again, but I shouldn't have to always be the one to contact him I figure.

This weekend I have tentative plans to go to the mountains with some girlfriends, and yet I bet my H takes for granted that I will have nothing to do, and will wait to contact me until the end of the week. I think that before I go away, I'll call him and let him know that I'm going, and that I really do want to sit down and discuss our "near" future together.

Someone over on GQII suggested that I write him a letter outlining what I want and need from him in order to continue our marriage, that way it's all there in black and white, and he can't brush me off as in a conversation or whatever. However, he pretty much always treats any note or letter that I write him as though it never existed; call it denial I guess?

Sigh, I hate this. I want to know where my life is going and with or without who.

Jen

Hi Jen-

I read the following and it screamed out for me to comment...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sigh, I hate this. I want to know where my life is going and with or without who </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are the ONLY person that can decide where your life is going. Why do you have to wait around for HIM to tell you that he wants the divorce?

I have been somewhat hard on you at times...this will be one of those times. This isn't because I want to make you feel bad. It's because I care and I want to snap you out of that stinkin' thinkin' cycle that you get yourself into. I'm the same way...or at least I'm trying not to be that way.

When I read that, I think "Jen, you're looking for permission from him to make a decision. Girl, the facts are the facts. Sit and look at your life without the blinders of denial...the patterns point to the same conclusions.

Empower yourself by standing up for who you are. By sending these papers and then holding them back, it turns into a statement about you. What message you're sending your husband is that it's okay for him to treat you like garbage.

You present him with a boundary, he talks the talk, and you let him talk his way through that boundary. He never planned a trip...it's more game playing. He wants you to feel bad and to play with your head because it gives him POWER over you.

If you want to stay in an unhealthy relationship, by all means, hold the papers. If you want you rlife to truly change and have direction instead of chaos, then you know in your heart what needs to happen.

Best of luck to you.

Jen B: “I'm wondering if he's ticked off that I cashed the cheque he gave me last week and so he's not calling, or he knows this is the week that I have my period so he's not calling.”

Me: Just reread your suggested reasons a few times. Now, it’s possible that you are being incredibly disrespectful. But at this point it’s more likely that you are tuned in to how your H operates/manipulates. From those reasons, I’d gather this is a man who will punish you and who views you as mainly valuable as a sexual toy.

Jen B: “The return of this limbo is gnawing at the back of my mind, and becoming very unsettling again, but I shouldn't have to always be the one to contact him I figure.”

Me: Please check you sig. line. “NO MORE LIMBO.”

In divorce, there are always regrets. There are always good things that get left behind. Very few people are all bad. And even the all-bad ones have some charm. But, all the incompatibility, the hurt, the anger, and the resentment outweigh those few regrets, making divorce the only sane solution.

The really big deterent is the if-only’s. If only he’d do this. If only I do that. If only…. I couldn’t file for divorce until I realized that the if-only’s were impossibilities.

And under no circumstances, NONE, should you cancel your trip. none. None. NONE. I don’t care if he’s in the hospital. I don’t care if he cries. He didn’t make any time for you, and surely, he could have fit you in for a cup of coffee. You won’t be able to because you’ll be out of town.

Hi Jen,

Things are all over the place. But, I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents. You guys have come this far. You have such a past! I would suggest that you go through with the divorce so that you and he can both have the knowledge that the "old marriage" is gone. Let it be done.

In the meantime, set some time aside for the two of you to begin dating each other. There's nothing stopping you from falling in love again. After all the crap that he has put you through, that you have put him through, let the divorce stand symbolically of the end of THAT mess. You both need a fresh start... look in your heart. Can you give yourself a fresh start? Do you trust him to give you a fresh start? Honestly and truly?

There is nothing more compelling in the world than being held amidst good memories. Those good memories are not what brought you to where you are now. My soon-to-be fiance and I were talking about this - she's divorced too - how easy it is when things get hard and you're feeling lonely to BLANK out all the crap, misery, horror, and manipulations that went on in the relationship. It's not just him or your feelings about each other... you also have feelings about yourself - "I should've done this...", "I hate myself for having done that..."...

Does he love you enough to go to counselling with you? How about you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jen, you're looking for permission from him to make a decision. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see how you could think this, however, I see my myself as waiting for him to demonstrate to me clearly whether or not he can truly allow himself to treat me with love and care again or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In divorce, there are always regrets. There are always good things that get left behind. Very few people are all bad. And even the all-bad ones have some charm. But, all the incompatibility, the hurt, the anger, and the resentment outweigh those few regrets, making divorce the only sane solution. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, a good and interesting point that I needed to hear to be sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And under no circumstances, NONE, should you cancel your trip. none. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I confirmed the plans for the trip yesteray and I'm going for sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would suggest that you go through with the divorce so that you and he can both have the knowledge that the "old marriage" is gone. Let it be done. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is an interesting and fresh perspective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You both need a fresh start... look in your heart. Can you give yourself a fresh start? Do you trust him to give you a fresh start? Honestly and truly? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't really trust him to give me a fresh start. I know he will, at least for many months to come, continue to ask me questions about my affair(s). Every other time I talk to him he rehashes and askes more questions. Now, MB attitude has always been that the WS needs to be willing to openly and willingly answer all of the BS questions to help with the healing, but I'm sick of it frankly. It's like he tries to ask the same questions in different ways to see if I'll answer differently, to try to catch me in a lie.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is nothing more compelling in the world than being held amidst good memories. Those good memories are not what brought you to where you are now. My soon-to-be fiance and I were talking about this - she's divorced too - how easy it is when things get hard and you're feeling lonely to BLANK out all the crap, misery, horror, and manipulations that went on in the relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. It's the good memories that made me turn on a dime and halt everything. Last week when we spent that evening together talking, there was a lot of reminiscing, to be sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does he love you enough to go to counselling with you? How about you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Every time I have asked in the past year and a half, he has refused. I haven't asked again in the last couple of weeks though.

Now, here's a shocker maybe. He asked me out to dinner last night and I went. I had pretty much the same reaction to him as I did when I went for dinner with him a couple of months ago before I told my lawyer to get rolling on the papers. I couldn't get over how negative he has become, how almost conceited he has become. He told me stories of how if or when several people did or said something somewhat unkind to him, how he "got them back" with hurtful words, often something unkind about their body weight. He has little or no concern for the feelings of others it would seem. His "victim" mindset apparently gives him the sense that he has permission to be very hurtful to others if they do anything that is remotely unkind to him.

During dinner, I didn't bring up "us" at all until the cheque came. Then I asked him if maybe we could agree to spend more time together, maybe a minimum of a couple nights a week together, and I wanted to aslo ask about counselling, but that one question about spending more time together caused too much of a reaction. He tensed right up, turned in his chair almost like he was going to run out of the restaurant, and said "Don't put pressure on me! I can't handle you putting pressure on me. It makes me want to run the other way." He repeated that he can't make any guarrantees, and that if I can't take things as they come from him that I should just put the divorce through already. He went on to say that "all of this" has left him with a sick feeling in the pit of his stomach since last week, and that he's taken 2 sleeping pills and gone to bed at 8pm every night just so he doesn't have to think about it all. I tried asking him what he'd be comfortable doing, what he wanted then (if my suggestion to spend more time together was putting too much pressure on him), and he said he didn't know, famous same old answer.

So, in short, he still isn't willing to make any sort of promises or commitment to me. I couldn't even dare to ask him about counselling or he'd have gotten up out of his seat and run out of the restaurant.

I figure I will try spending at least one more dinner or other get together with him, and then decide, but he left a sour taste in my mouth last night. And contrary to his usual behaviour, there was no phonecall when I got home to talk any further. My guess is he was worried that if we talked further that I'd continue putting pressure on him,and he would've been right.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He repeated that he can't make any guarrantees, and that if I can't take things as they come from him that I should just put the divorce through already. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,

I don't wanna sound harsh, but I am gonna be blunt....

The comment above says it all. Even if you are looking for an answer from him, you just got it. You are gonna tell yourself that he is saying that, to be able to put the "blame" on you...

......I say that he is telling you that he doesn't care....

You need to think about that. You don't want someone in your life that doesn't care, do you?


HCII

Nope I don't want someone in my life who doesn't care about me. I appreciate your bluntness. My rational side is back and knows better than to continue allowing this man to be in my life.

Jen

good girl.