I guess I'm just looking for feedback on divorcing. Both my H and I had affairs, I feel our marriage is over--I don't feel I love him, he wants to reconcile and rebuild. We're separated, he keeps pushing to spend lots of time together. Since I don't feel love for him, I think I'm ready for divorce. Did anyone else feel this way? Did your love for your spouse come back? I would hate to reconcile, spend many months together and still feel the same way. I'd have to hurt him all over again, saying "this isn't working...."

Need more information to answer your questions. Keep posting - and tell more of your story. Why do you not feel in-love with him?

Jan

Hello. I just wanted to say to you I went through the same thing but for different reasons. It was a 17 year marriage, filled with depression on his side, verbal and physical abuse, and then in the end, he took his own life. Three years prior to this, I would look at him and what went through my mind was "You know, I care for you and love you, and want you to be happy, but its not going to be with me" and I tried to tell him, he refused to acknowledge my feelings, and he did have an emotional affair if not physical while I remained faithful for 17 years. It ended badly, I'm still in counseling working on being a good mom and getting my life back together. But yes, I do not that feeling. Hope this helps.

On what little you've said (and hoping that he was not physically abusive) YES love can return.

I am a firm beleiver in earning your way out of a marriage. If you both do all the work to fix the marriage and you still aren't happy, don't love him, it's not working, etc. then you've earned your divorce ... because you did everything possible to fix your marriage.

way2

100% DESTROYED. MC is a test -- can love return? But right now it is gone, gone, gone. I can try to find things I enjoy that I do with him, but love for him is gone. And he may say he still loves me, but his actions show otherwise. Not only did he have an affair but he brought her up all the time... When I asked if he talked about her to torment me, his reply was, ""You weren't relevant enough to my thoughts for me to torment you."

My wife says she has lost her love for me. I am trying to reconcile. I would say give it a try, maybe go to one of the MB weekend sessions. Just let him know that there are no guarantees, and you will see what happens. You never know, you might find that your love for him is still inside you somewhere. I know I am going to do everything I can to get back together, but it is up to her what happens, as it is up to you now.

I don't feel 'in love' with him because he feels like a brother or something to me now. I feel like we just live together, that's all. We haven't communicated effectively in years. I tried to get him to counseling many times, but he wouldn't even respond to my requests. I suffer from depression and feel the only way he has 'been there for me' was just physically in the house. Obviously he's supported me financially (I work, too, however). Mine has been diagnosed as major depression, the kind where you have a chemical imbalance, inherited and so on. I take medication and that helps me quite a bit. About a year ago I broke through the lethargy that comes with depression (the medication makes you tired all the time, too) and began to take control of my life. I got healthy by eating well and losing 30 lbs. I'm more energetic and alive. I didn't just 'wake up' and decide 'ok, now I'm outta here', my husband had been saying things to me for a couple of years about leaving and I had found out he had affairs, online and actual. I got tired of it! I decided to take care of myself and see how I felt--felt good, didn't like what I was living. My husband got a wake up call himself when he found out I had had an affair. Then he was all for counseling! He's very forgiving of my affair and wants to work on our marriage. I see that, I appreciate that, but feel it just might be too late. We are currently separated with him pushing mightily to get back together. I'm being more passive because I'm not 100% sure I want a divorce, but I'm definitely leaning that way. Some really ugly things have come out of him since we've been separated. He hasn't been physical with me, but I have been afraid at times. He has told me that he's not going to be poor the rest of his life by supporting an ex-wife, he'll stop working before he'll give me X amount of dollars, etc. I know this is all anger, hurt, desperation on his part, but it's like a monster has come out, shown himself and gone back inside. I can't forget I saw that monster! That was UGLY! I've known my H 30 plus years and NEVER saw that before. The more I've seen and he's exposed since our separation, the more I'm sure I don't love him anymore. That's why I don't think my love can come back...

<small>[ February 01, 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: EmeraldLady ]</small>

Anything is possible, and "reading" the future is an inexact science....stay or leave, both have potential risks and rewards when we reach that crisis in life. IMO the prudent way to proceed is educate oneself in behavioral psychology (why we do what we do), then apply that knowledge to ourself and our partner.....likewise study up on marital psychology, what is healthy and what is not (many marriages are unhealthy co-dependentcies, not nurturing relationships). Doing this takes some of the emotional confusion out of the question (people are naturally inclined to avoid change, so default to staying in a marriage ....just because, which is a really bad reason).

Having reached a rational, informed decision (whether stay or leave) then apply the proper tools proactively (instead of reacting, take charge of your life in other words). Set goals, boundaries, and time frames (for reevaluation, to adjust plan as needed). MB is a good tool for marital recovery, it is also a good measure to see if recovery is occuring, and quit if it isn't. Controlled seperation is a good tool for those who decide they probably want to divorce, but need to be on their own for a while without a lot of pressure from a spouse who wants the marriage to continue (guilting, manipulateing, pursuing, pressureing, etc.), from that vantage point one can make a divorce/reconciliation decision more clearly.

In making assessments I think past behavior is a an appropriate consideration. People who have been married for years to neglectful, often mildly abusive, univolved spouses, who rebuffed efforts to change then suddenly (when confronted with divorce) decide they really are "in-love" with you, and want the marriage have little credibility. In most cases the changes are temporary, and similar to dating behavior, just designed to keep you with them, and then they revert back, or just change the minimum necessary to keep you... I really don't think people can be poor marital partners for 20 years, and then sunddenly morph into someone else, and I have seen almost no evidence of this. Rather I have seen story after story after story of "promises" made, marriage limps along (after sometimes a brief "honeymoon" phase), and people just waste more years of their lives, trying to "accept" their lot in life. In situations this, it makes far more sense to me, to have strong boundaries, see major and rapid changes, and if not, end it. Better to establish a safe boundary (divorce) have your life in order, then date and remarry your ex if you want....this rarely happens as the fog clears and you realize the relationship is not a healthy one for you or them, and you can reorder your life in a more healthy manner.

I am willing to test if a miserable marriage of 11 years can be turned around. Sufdb, the problem I have is not having set the criteria for divorce. Your comments are really helpful to me. I see a change in behavior, but do I need to have a gun to his head (I'll divorce you unless...) in order for it to continue?

I don't see having boundaries for YOU as a gun to someone elses head. You have every right to live your life as you see fit, one own's a spouse nothing (except civility, respect, and honesty). One of the "tests" IMO is being unable (or don't want to be) to be civil, have little or no respect, or have to walk on eggshells or guard yourself (both dishonest behaviors). If these things are present I see little reason to continue a marriage. Marriage is voluntary (must be if it is to be healthy), one is in it cause they want to be, not cause they are "owned" or owe something.


re your question, you see changes...ok, what kind, little itty bitty ones or great big I really get it now ones. People hang on little changes, baby steps, well....sure for a brief time, but ya know, this isn't rocket science...once the light bulb goes on re what a healthy marriage is and is not...then change should come quickly, if it doesn't I doubt it is real change just posturing...or outright deception to keep you in the marriage. It is amazing the lengths people will go to without any conscience at all to "keep" someone meeting their needs...that is not change, that is manipulation. I can't answer about your actual circumstances, but since you ask I will comment re what you post about your H, I see no real change, I just see a guy manouvreing to get what he wants from you. This stuff is sooooooooooooo simple. If a spouse wants to keep you....they apply zealously the rules of protection (MB stuff), they enthusiastically participate in counselling, they stop all lovebusting, and they start meeting your en's in an obvious manner...that's it, easy to do, easy to see....if it ain't happening, your spouse is not changing, and the marriage will not be a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place. IMO there is no reason to be married if this stuff is not happening. Go ahead and divorce/seperate, that sets the boundary where it should be, continue to date and see if that works...if it does not, then you know everything you need to know....move on with your life (and complete divorce if that is not done yet).

I do not believe mollycoddling is a useful marriage restoration technique. I think swift, very clear, decisive action with solid boundaries and requirements, communicated without confusion is the way to go....life is to short to dither about. And it makes it absolutely clear to ones spouse there life is on the line (with you anyways), and they will either rise to the occassion, or get ugly and reveal who they really are. Tough love bh is always the best medicine IMO.

Are there other issues? Yep, kids muddy the waters, people will put up with more than they would if they had no kids, I think that is ok too, you have to decide how much deviation you will accept to get kids raised, or until you get a job/skills for financial independence etc...then you can require the tougher standards.

I hate to be the controlling one at this time, but don't want to get back together right now. A therapist I'm seeing suggested I tell him I'm willing to give the separation a certain amount of months and that I want to feel free to explore other relationships (as he would be free to do also) and if he doesn't like that suggestion, he's certainly free to end it right now. I was really leaning toward telling my spouse I wanted to divorce, but I like my therapist's suggestion because I get to see what it's like on my own. I'm not even saying I WOULD explore other relationships, just that we would have the option. Perhaps I would miss him (he's been in my life over 30 yrs.) and come to WANT to reconcile. Right now I'm just not ready, but he's pushing for it.

I love my WW, but am no longer in love, and seriously question if I ever will be in love with her again. For that matter, in love with anyone else if we divorce.

We had just renewed our vows as her EA was beginning. My view of marriage at DDay was and remains altered.

You say you'd have to hurt him all over again saying it isn't working - did his EA hurt you? Don't you worry he'll hurt you?

LLM,
Yeah, his EA hurt me very much! When confronted with evidence, he just refused to discuss it. It was painful, but I put up with it for some reason--I guess I was scared to be the one to say THAT's IT, BUDDY! We have been married a long time, it's so hard. But his affair and a few other threats that he was gonna leave me during the past few years just pushed me over the edge! I didn't come right out and say "I am SO out of here!" just began preparations for it privately without discussing it with him. I didn't see a lawyer or anything, just began exploring my options, reading everything I could get my hands on for advice, speaking with other divorced women, etc. I began to see it was 'doable' and the fright began to fade. I suppose part of that preparation was falling out of love with my H. I think that's just natural. You can't be hurt over and over and over and still love someone--well, I take that back. I see plenty of posts where people have been hurt repeatedly and STILL they want to hang on. That's not me, not now anyway. I'm not evil, not out for revenge--I've just HAD IT, you know?

EL, you don’t feel in love because your husband hasn’t been meeting your needs and worse has been lovebusting. I wish there was some way to get him here before he makes you 100% sure you want a speedy divorce. Unfortunately, bringing this site up can prove explosive.

Please understand that you are not being controlling just because you won’t move back. He has not exactly demonstrated that it was emotionally safe for you to move back. And he’s even frightened you.

Another thing you could do, continue separated, but go to marriage counseling with him. Tell him upfront that you don’t know if reconciliation and recovery of romantic love is possible, but you’re willing to explore it and get more information before you make a decision.

I think the length of time you suffered before separation plays a factor here. It seems the longer you are miserable the harder it is to put the marriage back together. Many people try it, and there are people here who have created happy marriages for the first time ever through MB principles. But unless both spouses are enthusiastic and willing to change, it’s difficult to recreate that romantic love.

If your husband understands that staying married is not enough for you, that you want to be happily married, and if he holds the keys to your happiness inside the marriage, then you have a good shot at a happy marriage. It’s a lot of if’s, I know.

I think one essential aspect if you go looking for a marriage counselor is this: He or she must grasp that you are each responsible for each other’s happiness within the marriage structure. If you run into a counselor that starts telling you that you can make yourself happiness in the marriage, or worse that love is a choice, run. They won’t be able to help you.

That kind of counsel allows blaming “The reason we’re having problems is because she won’t make up her mind to love me.” And it allows wandering “I’m supposed to make myself happy, therefore I can make myself happy by hanging out with Joe.”

The last bit of MC I did was very helpful for me. It made me realize that I had nothing left to give. I tried to work at it, but there was nothing there. And I realized that my boundaries really couldn’t bend enough to save the marriage. I had already made a lot of changes in my behavior, and I wasn’t willing to make any more. The essential points of change that I needed to see from my h, I still haven’t seen. And that’s why he’s STBX.

Funny thing is, STBX is saying that if I’ll reconsider then he’ll change. Rather putting the cart before the horse.

GG, we're already in marriage counseling and it's ME that doesn't want to get back together. He has found this site and says he's committed to its principles--I am not. As I say, I'm not doing anything to be mean, I just feel it's too late. I don't feel the counseling is helping because our therapist keeps trying to get us to DO things together. I said straight up from the beginning I didn't know what I wanted to do, was pretty sure I no longer loved my H, but came to the joint counseling per my own therapist's advice to have help getting through to my spouse.
Sad, sad, sad but true. So I want to be left alone for a while to ponder some more, see if I miss him. He doesn't like that idea, but what can I do?

EmeraldLady, you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't forget I saw that monster! That was UGLY! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can relate--I've seen one too.

Everlong,

You've seen the monster, too? Would you like to discuss what happened to you? I'd be very interested in hearing someone else's story about the monster (I'm not kidding)...

<small>[ February 06, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: EmeraldLady ]</small>

Well...let's just say that I was very, very surprised, shocked, and all that...it was a revelation on many levels that shattered a lot of beliefs and assumptions in which I had been secure, as regards his feelings/affinity for me.

It wasn't simple, either, processing that.

I can discuss it from my viewpoint, but I hesitate to say things that appear to malign, I think that's unconstructive. For a long time I felt hateful and disrespectful toward him, but I don't any more.