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Dear friends, I am new to this section. I have posted on divorce/divorcing and also on plan A/B. I ask that you pray for God to show me the direction he wants me to go. I want to do His will, however, I still want control and do not trust enough in the loving plan he has for me. Why is that?

I think I now know a little about how David and Daniel felt while waiting for God to deliver them from their personal challenges. I don't know whether God wants me to continue in my M or to end it. My H has had a series of affairs even though he claims this current one is ending.

I know God is against D but the pain, the verbal and emotional abuse, the choices my H has made in his life are too much for me.

Once again, please pray that God makes it very clear what he wants and doesn't want from me. I know this will be done because wherever two or three are gathered...

Thankyou, Pariskev

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P.S. I meant to post in Prayer requests. Thanks

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know whether God wants me to continue in my M or to end it. My H has had a series of affairs even though he claims this current one is ending.

I know God is against D but the pain, the verbal and emotional abuse, the choices my H has made in his life are too much for me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I'll pray for you and for anyone who asks for nothing but understanding. I know this sounds vague but keep seeking that understanding, and the answers will come, your journey will change. Yes, God is against divorce but because of our "hardness of heart", it is a reality. God also has a plan for marriage, and for each person's life. Try to think in those terms. Take care.

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The message I get from my church is that above all, God wants us to be happy. Listen to your heart, for within it is God's word.

Love and light,

Jacky

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"God wants us to be happy..." can be a dangerous message. For some, that becomes a license to break God's law. Sure God forgives. If my wife does divorce me because she is not "happy" I'm sure she will be forgiven if she asks God to forgive her.

However, it doesn't make that "right"

I guess I cringe a bit when I hear the "God wants me to be happy..." message because so many take that to mean it's ok to go against God.

Perhaps God wants you to be happy where you are, and find the good in the situation.

I'm just on this kick right now, I heard this on Friday night and think many folks who subscribe to the "Church of Infinite Endorphins" should take a listen...

http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/swn/oneplace/wm/lot/lot20040206.wax

If you can't open that here, then visit...

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/living_on_the_edge/Archives.asp

and check out the broadcast for 2/6/2004

Tony

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javasans - listened to the broadcast and yes, God is our father. When I get back from church, I will listen to it again. Thanks.

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java..."God wants us to be happy..." can be a dangerous message. For some, that becomes a license to break God's law.

sufdb....??? ANY message can be used (or misued) to justify inappropriate choices, that does not make the message dangerous. If you mean God really does not want us to be happy period, then I wonder why He wants us to be unhappy, and why He gave us the capacity for feelings we describe as happy. It makes no sense that we should then reject or avoid choices that make us happy, just because they feel happy.

java... If my wife does divorce me because she is not "happy" I'm sure she will be forgiven if she asks God to forgive her.

sufdb....Happy is just a descriptive word, used to try and understand (and communicate) our emotional state, which is reflective of our general psychological well-being. No one marries or divorces because of feelings alone.....if they do so, then they do run a serious risk of error, and will experience undesireable consequences. There is always an additional rational consideration, an assessment of the choice (to marry or divorce). Oft times indeed this assessment is poorly made, and one should strive for (and advise/encourage others) a competent assessment...but regardless, if your wife divorces you, it will mostly like be because she percieves (rightly or wrongly) that the marriage is unsafe for her...that "feels" unhappy, but the feeling is not the reason...... there are I suppose a few individuals who cannot reason at all, and make their decisions totally on feelings, they obviously can never be safe marital partners for anyone, and should not marry...or if they do, they should be divorced by the unfortunate spouse who did not realize this and married them.

java. However, it doesn't make that "right".

sufdb...It might or might not, no one has authority to know God's will for another. This of course leads to contentious arguments about Christian marital doctrine, as the more rule oriented amonst us insist divorce is categorically forbidden (yet everyone has their own customised ""self-serving"" list of exceptions, I suppose you do too). So when is it right java? What is your list, and why should it apply to anyone but you? (in other words if your w list is different, that's not ok?).

java...I guess I cringe a bit when I hear the "God wants me to be happy..." message because so many take that to mean it's ok to go against God.

sufdb....Do you think God wants you to be happy java? If not, do you think He wants you to be unhappy? If neither, do you think God cars about our well-being at all? If so, how do we "feel" that, what descriptive word would you use to assess this.

java...Perhaps God wants you to be happy where you are, and find the good in the situation.

sufdb...Perhaps, but isn't that something we each have to assess for ourselves....why should you be concerned how others decide their lives in this regard?

<small>[ February 08, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong> java..."God wants us to be happy..." can be a dangerous message. For some, that becomes a license to break God's law.

sufdb....??? ANY message can be used (or misued) to justify inappropriate choices, that does not make the message dangerous. If you mean God really does not want us to be happy period, then I wonder why He wants us to be unhappy, and why He gave us the capacity for feelings we describe as happy. It makes no sense that we should then reject or avoid choices that make us happy, just because they feel happy.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are reading out of context. I never said God doesn't want you to be happy, I said that God wants you to be happy with what He has provided for you. Yes, if my wife does divorce me, I will find God's happiness in this, the "something better" that God always seems to provide.

My point is that I personally cannot believe that God wants you to be happy by breaking His commandments, and going against His word. Adultery for example, it's ok to have an affair because you are not happy in your marriage? Some would contend that yes, this is ok because God wants me to be happy. (My wife is in that camp, BTW.)

Scripturally, Matthew 5:32, Deuteronomy 24, Malachi 2:16

I really don't have to guess what the will of God is, it's spelled out quite clearly in the Bible.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

java... If my wife does divorce me because she is not "happy" I'm sure she will be forgiven if she asks God to forgive her.

sufdb....Happy is just a descriptive word, used to try and understand (and communicate) our emotional state, which is reflective of our general psychological well-being. No one marries or divorces because of feelings alone.....if they do so, then they do run a serious risk of error, and will experience undesireable consequences. There is always an additional rational consideration, an assessment of the choice (to marry or divorce). Oft times indeed this assessment is poorly made, and one should strive for (and advise/encourage others) a competent assessment...but regardless, if your wife divorces you, it will mostly like be because she percieves (rightly or wrongly) that the marriage is unsafe for her...that "feels" unhappy, but the feeling is not the reason...... there are I suppose a few individuals who cannot reason at all, and make their decisions totally on feelings, they obviously can never be safe marital partners for anyone, and should not marry...or if they do, they should be divorced by the unfortunate spouse who did not realize this and married them.

java. However, it doesn't make that "right".

sufdb...It might or might not, no one has authority to know God's will for another. This of course leads to contentious arguments about Christian marital doctrine, as the more rule oriented amonst us insist divorce is categorically forbidden (yet everyone has their own customised ""self-serving"" list of exceptions, I suppose you do too). So when is it right java? What is your list, and why should it apply to anyone but you? (in other words if your w list is different, that's not ok?).

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above, the Bible is pretty clear about divorce. I do agree that she may not feel safe in the marriage from an emotional standpoint, and I've accepted responsiblity for that. I also understand that I cannot make that decision for her. I can only work on myself and pray that she sees a safe man to return to.

However, I don't have to agree that she is making a doctrinally sound decision either. We both have the ability to reason and we both are held responsible for our decisions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

java...I guess I cringe a bit when I hear the "God wants me to be happy..." message because so many take that to mean it's ok to go against God.

sufdb....Do you think God wants you to be happy java? If not, do you think He wants you to be unhappy? If neither, do you think God cars about our well-being at all? If so, how do we "feel" that, what descriptive word would you use to assess this.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This seems to be repeatitive. Please show me where I said God doesn't want you to be happy. You will find I didn't. However, you will clearly find that I believe God doesn't want you to seek happiness by going against His will.

I personally believe that divorcing a partner who is a believer, sold out to Christ, is a sin. At the very least, it demonstrates a lack of faith in God. God was able to change Saul on the road to Damascus, and Saul wasn't even a willing party to change. How much more change can God effect for partners who are willing to change?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

java...Perhaps God wants you to be happy where you are, and find the good in the situation.

sufdb...Perhaps, but isn't that something we each have to assess for ourselves....why should you be concerned how others decide their lives in this regard? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I believe marriage is the joining of two into one flesh, one family. My wife admits that this decision to divorce is a selfish decision. She has said that herself. She understand that she is not taking into consideration the feelings of her spouse or her children.

So I am concerned, not only about her, but about then entire family.

But the decision is hers and it is not my place to judge her. However, I don't have to agree with her either.

Tony

<small>[ February 08, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

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ok, so happy is ok, but should be in a healthy context (ie one may be happy shooting heroin, but hard to find any basis for that being a good thing)...we are on the same page then.

The problem occurs when we challenge what makes another happy....(heroin is a no-brainer, but smoking pot will get you an argument for example). Religious issues get contentious real fast, because quite often the focus is on getting someone to make decisions that benefit you.... especially marital conflict. Telling someone they can only be happily married to YOU, not anyone else is problematic.....and IMO is a very self-serving argument, and quite likely to cause conflict. That is something each must decide for themself methinks....and they may decide you are unsafe, and they may be right...for them.
And I agree, deliberately breaking commandments is not a good thing, or likely to result in happiness....adultery is pretty clear in this sense....but marital doctrine is not, forcing oneself to remain in a marriage solely for relgious reason seems problematic as to outcome. Would you accept your wife telling you she does not want to be married, but will stay out of duty, including serviceing your needs as an obligation? If she feels this way, what do you do about it java? Do you bind her to you regardless of her feelings? Forever?

java...See above, the Bible is pretty clear about divorce.

sufdb...Ok, say you are correct, a spouse agrees (with doctrine), and submits....but remains unhappy and resentful, but carries out her duties, meeting your needs etc. etc. (just conceals her true feelings), and would leave if given the choice....is that ok?

java...However, I don't have to agree that she is making a doctrinally sound decision either. We both have the ability to reason and we both are held responsible for our decisions.

sufdb...yep, don't have to agree, but is a the negative outcome above ok with you?

java...I personally believe that divorcing a partner who is a believer, sold out to Christ, is a sin. At the very least, it demonstrates a lack of faith in God.

sufdb...ok, fine, same question, you get what you want an obedient, submissive, (but unhappy and resentful) spouse, is that ok?

java...God was able to change Saul on the road to Damascus, and Saul wasn't even a willing party to change. How much more change can God effect for partners who are willing to change?

sufdb...ok, so your goal here is to get God to change your wife?

java...Because I believe marriage is the joining of two into one flesh, one family. My wife admits that this decision to divorce is a selfish decision.

sufdb...of course it is, all decisions are selfish, it is the only way humans make decisions. Marrying you was also a selfish decision, but that was ok...correct? You also have decided to continue the marriage, that was a selfish decision too. Describing something as selfish is a nonsensical label, and IMO creates huge animosity because making that charge is nothing but an obvious attempt to manuipulate another into making the decision you want....kinda selfish huh?

java...She has said that herself. She understand that she is not taking into consideration the feelings of her spouse or her children.

sufdb... actually she is, she can't not do so....but your concern is she might not do what you or kids want her to do......so that is the conundrum, should she decide for herself, or should she just do what you or kids want her to do? In short she becomes unimportant as an individual, and her worth is solely in her benefit to you and/or kids, and what you want....is that ok?

java...So I am concerned, not only about her, but about then entire family.

sufdb...because that is how your "selfishness" manifests, that is what YOU want, the process is no different for her... the problem is you do not want the same selfish things, and are suggesting your selfishness is better than her selfishness, it is all selfishness java, and comparing is manipulative. Instead IMO you should be encourageing her to fully understand herself, and whatever issues she has, and enable her to freely make whatever choice she feels best for her....you do want a willing wife don't you? Trying to manipulate her into a choice is dishonesty and gaurantees conflict, if not now, then later....we all have to "feel" we made the choice we want, otherwise resentment is the outcome, and lots of other bad stuff as well. Do you see?


java...But the decision is hers and it is not my place to judge her. However, I don't have to agree with her either.

sufdb...Yep. good luck tony. I hope my conversation with you is not recieved as meanspirited, or negative, my point is about how people behave and the consequences of not realizing that.

<small>[ February 08, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

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Actually, while I didn't say it, the idea of Saul being changed to Paul was in the context of me changing.

I agree with you that I want my wife to be a willing partner, and not an automaton who submits just for the sake of submitting.

However, how can I say this without invoking the image of Darth Vader, it's her lack of faith that is disturbing. Her lack of faith in me and her lack of faith in God.

Tony

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java..However, how can I say this without invoking the image of Darth Vader, it's her lack of faith that is disturbing. Her lack of faith in me and her lack of faith in God.


sufdb...IMO all this kind of stuff falls under the lovebuster of educateing your partner. One cannot educate someone in this fashion, but one can facillitate and encourage another to make the effort to figure out what they believe and what they want. So my advice is to say nothing about your judement of her beliefs....rather instead acknowledge how hard this is for everyone to do, and offer to help her any way you can, including diaglog about these issues if she desires it....but do not tell her how she should believe, tell her what you believe and what impact that has on your choices...while at the same time making it clear you understand she may have different opinions and make different choices.

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As a person who is frequently and immutably wrong-headed about other people's lack of faith (or improper response as a person of faith), I will just say that all you can do is be who you know God wants you to be, and witness to others on those terms.

Of all the ways I have to demonstrate that I trust God, this is the most difficult.

<small>[ February 08, 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: everlong ]</small>

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Nina Too said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The message I get from my church is that above all, God wants us to be happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was just wondering what your church has to say about what people need to DO to BE happy?

My church, which teaches from a purely biblical perspective, says God wants us to experience true joy. There's a big difference between happiness and joy. Happiness is based on "happenings", and true deep joy comes from having a relationship with our heavenly Father and obeying His instructions for life despite our happenings.

I will pray for your discernment Pariskev

<small>[ February 08, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

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Geez me and my big mouth...look, in the context of the teachings of the church and God's laws, God wants us to be happy. I thought that would have been obvious. Sorry that it wasn't.

And whoever tried to twist my words around like they did......I would NEVER tell someone to leave a marriage, nor would I EVER condone the behaviour of a WS.

And did you see the last bit of my post: "Listen to your heart for within it is God's word." Does this not imply to you that Pariskev, being a Christian has God in her heart and will follow that?

Geez, I am sorry for causing this.......was never my intention. But there has been some twisting and misquoting here. And I resent that.

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Nina too,

I didn't know how you meant it, so I hope you don't think I was trying to twist your words.

Perhaps I was not clear in what I wrote, so let me clarify now. My WW is using the "God wants me to be happy" to justify her A and her desire for a divorce.

I ask her to show me that in the Bible and perhaps to come discuss that with the Pastor with me so I can better understand this POV, but so far she is unwilling to do these things.

I do agree that she probably doesn't feel safe emotionally discussing this. She never felt safe to ever tell me she was unhappy in the first place. The only time I ever heard the I'm unhappy was when she told me she was moving out.

The thing that frustrates me is that now she got the nerve to tell me how she felt, and I'm all ears listening and validating what she said. I even helped her move, told her I can see why she feels the way she does, etc. My reward for validating her was for her to lie about having an affair. Even after direct questioning about another man, she told me there was none, up until I spoke with the wife of the OM.

Even after that, I explained that the was nothing that couldn't be forgiven and worked through.

But I hear that I'm the one who is judgmental and doesn't accept, etc. I feel just the exact opposite. I'm at the point where I understand how important acceptance is, and she is unwilling to do the same.

Well, that is just frustration, and it does me no good. I've come to realize in the past week that I have what I need, but not necessarily what I want, and God is totally sufficient to supply my needs.

So how can I possibly be unhappy while resting in the hands of God. I truly am blessed, with or without my wife.

Tony

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The message I get from my church is that above all, God wants us to be happy. Listen to your heart, for within it is God's word.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I have nothing against you at all Jacky, but if your church preaches this, you might think about switching churches. That is not Biblical teaching.

The Bible never once says anything about God wanting us happy. He does want to bless us, which makes us happy. But what God wants is for us to be in an obedient relationship with Him... one in which we are holy. He wants us to be obedient to His Word. He wants us to live righteous and humble lives. Our happiness should be last on the list of priorities. Happiness is not a goal but rather more of the end result of living a righteous life. However, like motherboard said, it's really more along the lines of joy than happiness.

God's ways are higher than ours and when we live holy and godly lives, the end result is JOY. Joy and peace... which to me is far better than happiness (happiness is more of a temporary state of mind that is dependent on circumstances... i.e. New car--> I'm happy. Car accident--> I'm unhappy. Good marriage --> happy. Bad marriage--> unhappy.).

My husband divorced me with that exact thought of God wanting him "happy." I can still hear him say, "God wants me happy" and "God would not want me to be miserable." But, if that is true, then how would one reconcile that with, "God hates divorce?" Why would God hate something, like divorce, but then give it to make a person happy?

How also would you explain to someone (ike me)... IF God wanted my husband happy and that meant divorce, then God must've wanted me and the kids unhappy?? Would God give someone "happiness" at the expense of other's unhappiness? Does God play favorites like that? In other words, my husband's "God wants ME happy" equates to my saying, "Then God must want me to be unhappy because I don't want a divorce."

If God wants us happy, then I believe Jesus would not have died on the cross. Paul would not have endured beatings. Peter would not have accepted imprisonment. Missionaries would not risk their lives to go save savage jungle people. My friend's mom wouldn't remain a caretaker to her ailing Alzheimer's riddled mother. My sister wouldn't stay married to her currently sickly husband.

No. What my husband said isn't true. It's not Biblical. God doesn't "want" us "happy." He wants us to be holy, obedient, and godly and in the end, He blesses us with joy and peace, both which are far more enduring and sustaining than simple happiness. Happiness is not a bad thing, but should not be a goal or something we think we "deserve" or a pursuit or something that we would cause someone else to be miserable so that we can be happy. Wouldn't that be how most affairs are justified? I'm not "happy" in my marriage, so I will go be with someone who meets my needs and makes me "happy"? What does God really want? That man to be "happy" or to be faithful?

Hope that makes sense.

As for the Word being in our heart, it's only in our heart if we put it there by studying, reading, and memorizing that Bible! Our hearts by themselves are "deceitfully wicked" (according to the Bible... can't recall the verse offhand) and our hearts mislead us and decieve us. We cannot trust our hearts or our thoughts. BUT we can trust the Word of God because it is "the way, the TRUTH, and the light."

PARISKEV,

Seek the Lord's will through both prayer and by being in His Word. I don't know your circumstances, so I don't know how to specifically advise you, but God's Word is full of wisdom and guidance. You must choose to trust Him. It is a choice that you make. Try to remind yourself to "walk by FAITH and not by sight." Find some godly women at your church to support you with prayer and encouragement. Pray and seek the Lord, and hold tight to Him.

If you walk by sight, you will look at your circumstances, your feelings, your husband's wrongdoings, etc... and you will see only impossibilities, hopelessness, and you will be afraid to trust God based on what you see. But if you walk by faith... believing God's Word that He is good, faithful, and almighty... that He changes lives and blesses obedience... and so many more promises in His Word... if you can walk by faith.. clinging to those promises and beleiving them even though you cannot yet see it... then you will have peace of mind and will be able to trust Him.

All three things you face right now-- adultery, abuse, and divorce--- are "evils" that God despises. God HATES any mistreatment of people, and all three of these things hurt people and break relationships. Neither adultery or abuse or divorce is His will, and this is very clear in the Bible. It seems like a hopeless situation with no way out, but it's not. There is always hope with God!

I don't know God's specific will for you and what the future holds, but I do know that with Him there is hope and a future... "for I know the plans I have for you... plans to prosper you and to give you a hope and future." (Isaiah or Jeremiah). He loves both you and your husband, and He wants to change your husband. Your husband is on a path of destruction... he is destroying himself, his marriage, you, children (if you have them).

Pray for your husband. The Bible says to pray for our enemies, and in a way, he is your "enemy." He is not truly your enemy (Satan is your true enemy), but he is acting like an enemy by betraying and mistreating you. Pray for him. Pray that God will grab hold of him, convict him, bring him to his knees in repentance. Pray fervently believing that God can do this.

Also pray and ask God what to specifically do as far as facing the abuse and adultery (i.e. plan A and plan B, separation, etc). Along with faith, He gives us wisdom and we are to both walk in faith while also applying wisdom to the circumstances in our lives.

I am so sorry you are facing this in your life and will pray for you and your husband. May God do a mighty and miraculous work in your husband's heart and life and may He give you guidance, wisdom, faith, and peace.

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p.s. To Jacky, don't feel offended. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Alot of Chrisitan people believe "God wants me happy" and when I say what I did, it's not against you or any of those people, it's more a matter of "speaking the truth in love." We are to instruct and admonish each other with God's Word... helping each other to understand and making sure that what is being said about God and His Word is true. So, when I "corrected" your church's teaching (as I understood from what you quoted), it is not against you personally, but against the teaching of "happiness."

JAVA... I liked alot of what you said. I don't think I knew you were a Christian. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You usually post on EN right? I think you do, but some poster's names are kind similar... java this and java that... heehee... so I'm not sure I have the right Java who I have seen alot on EN board.

Anyways... that's a little off topic, but I liked what you said- it's Biblical- and will try to check out those messages.

"Happiness" is often an "excuse" for self-indulgence, irresponsibility, or sin. For instance, chocolate makes me "happy!" (According to commercials, it makes the whole world blissfully happy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). BUT... it also makes me fat, unhealthy, and I really could use that money to buy stamps or something less harmful to my body! You know what I'm saying? I often justify things I do (being lazy, eating junk, etc) because they bring me a temporary feeling of happiness... and that's the main thing about happiness... it is mostly a FEELING. Feelilngs come and go and are based on circumstances.

Anyways.... just my little sermon for today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> No offense to anyone.

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Yes,

I'm mostly on EN. I've certainly been a Christian for a long time, but I'm no where near where I should be. In fact, I think if I were, then my WW wouldn't have felt the need to W.

Now before a bunch of folks ask me to stop beating myself up or blaming myself, I simply accept responsiblity for not meeting her needs. I DO NOT accept responsiblity for her decision to seek satisfaction of those needs outside of our marriage.

Tony

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I'm realitively new here too. I can say with complete empathy, I do know how you feel. I prayed that prayer for myself and asked others to do the same on me behalf. God unlike us, sees the entire picture. He loves you completely and only wants the very best for you, this I'm sure of. I will pray that your faith in Him will continue to grow and ask Him to open your heart to his love and let His love guide you. If we are pure in heart and hold no hate for any of God's children,pray for the people you have hurt us deeply He will answer our prayers in His time.


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