Hey Drummer, a line in your post stuck out to me that I felt compelled to bring up.

"Every single day of my life in my prayer time, I ask the Lord for forgiveness for my failed marriage and ultimate divorce"

Once we ask for forgiveness for something, we are forgiven, we are totally absolved.

It would seem to me that asking for forgiveness for the same thing repeatedly is almost like doubting God's forgiveness of our sins.

Just imagine coming to God, repenting, asking for forgiveness and he tells you "I have completely forgiven you, I died on the cross so that you could be forgiven." And then to ask him that over and over.

I know if someone came to me asking me to forgive them of something they did against me after more than once I would say "enough already, I forgave you for that a long time ago. Let it go, I already have". And I didn't even sacrifice myself for their sins.

<small>[ February 11, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Eduard ]</small>

Ridingtherollercoaster:

--A little background, I was a conflict avoiding, porn user who did love his wife, and my wife had ENs beyond my abilities, was unconcerned abut my SF, and had an A.

TR--I doubt her EN's were above your abilities-
but maybe more than YOU cared to meet--

And is it possible she was unconcerned about your need's because you ignored her needs and seemed to be unimportant to you? as you stated--you avoided conflict, and her need's were BEYOND your abilities--

--Even with some Plan A and B, things couldn't be resolved. I have been shown through her words and deeds that there is no future for me in her life, and now I find myself headed toward Dv.--

TR--What have you done to not avoid these conflict's anymore? What have you done about your porn usage? Why should she trust you have changed?

--My question is, if God hates divorce, as it says in the Bible, can I be forgiven for giving up on our M? It is a covenant promise that I made and am worried about the eternal destiny of my soul. Is there still hope of going to heaven?

TR--not to sound mean--but did you think about these things before you turned your affections to porn?? Please read Matt Chapter 5:27-28--and according to those verses can you tell me again who committed adultry???

But in answer to your question--yes, God can forgive divorce--just as He can and does forgive adultry--and any other sin when we ask Him--

You may also want to read John Chapter 8 and place yourself in the position of the person Christ is speaking about and to--make it personal
to get a greater understanding of the verses--

<small>[ February 11, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

To Eduard : Point well taken; I guess I still am dealing with some guilt issues. But in my heart, I'm also thankful for the Lord's grace.

Quote Drummer Boy:
However, I often wonder if each individual marriage throughout all the world and throughout all time is ordained by God. I've come to the conclusion, unlike some that I've heard, that only God Himself can answer that one - we can't. I can only deal with what I see before me - broken lives as a result of the sinful nature of man; ones who had no one to guide them; ones who were abused somewhere in their lives'; May the Lord have mercy on our messed us souls.

I love this one b/c I think the Lord of Light did try to steer me away from the marriage.

And I could never trust in a God who would make one or two people suffer a lifetime because the two people plus a priest said that God put the people together.

Really, it's the two people, the priest, the community and the law which put the people together, all the ceremony does is invoke God's blessing and seal the union with a vow to God. To me that's a lot different than an infalliable Divine being joining me up with another person.

Marriage may be handed down from God to Adam and Eve (although I tend to believe Man made it up himself), but Man is in full control of it to make all the mistakes possible. And with mere mortals the realm of mistakes does seem endless.

And God, the all Good, the Forgiving, understands of course. And I think he forgives us for divorce even when it's simply because we were idiots and got married to a person who is poison to us.

But as I said, I'm an off-beat kind of Christian. Probably by most people's standards here, I don't even rate a capital C.

I think it's accurate to say that God sets a standard for marriage--a divine purpose, which as such is perfect. However, that doesn't mean we can live up to it. We would be happy beyond description if we could, but we can't, or won't, because of sin. (God is not surprised by this.)

And when we can't, or won't, we need to still look to God as one who knows what we need even before we ask, and one who forgives if we repent and ask for forgiveness.

I would highly recommend reading the view of Al Maxey that Undrtkr spoke about. I have been wrestling with this whole thought for over 2 years, and have read probably 10-12 different 'sources' including several books specifically about the 'religious' intonations concerning divorce. I think that this ebook "Down but not out" is one of the best written and all inclusive pieces that I have read. I encourage all people regardless of whether you were left, are leaving, have left, and regardless of circumstances to read this piece.

I have struggled with how to view this for so long, trying beyond measure to forgive and understand. Even though I met the 'criteria' in spades having repeat infidelity and abandonment from my ex. I still found that I pondered what God thinks of 'her'. And I have found lately, although I think that I might have just finally put it all together, that I was as worried about her and her 'place' or salvation as I was about my own. Having essentially come to grips that I hadn't 'damned' myself so to speak, I found that I was almost continually thinking about the 'punishment' that should come to her to MAKE her see the error of her ways. I was almost fixated on it. But this book helps shed light on it for me in such a significant way, that I believe in some way that this post was posted not only to help RTRC, but in effect somehow, perhaps, inspired to help me as well.

I have several new things and views to ponder, and while I am not sure about a couple of things, I do typically agree with most everything that is said.

I grew up in the congregation of this author's father. I know that he is a very honorable and devout Christian, so I must essentially believe that his son has some of his qualities. I pray that this information is accurate as far as God is concerned. It has helped me so much that I have discovered a significantly greater peace just in a single reading.

Again, I encourage you all to read this, regardless of your timing, station, or place in divorce or healing. It has calmed my soul... which is exactly what I prayed for so much last night.

http://www.zianet.com/maxey/DBNOList.htm

<small>[ February 11, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Formerly,
I know Al personally and my wife and I had counseled with him in regards to this matter. We both were carrying years of guilt from previous marriages. We were also members of his congreation at the time. He does not downplay the importance of God's IDEAL for marriage but is able to shed light and grace on all of us who fail to live up to that ideal. If anyone is dealing with feelings of guilt for falling short of God's ideal for marriage, you would find this book very helpful.
Blessings and grace to all,

Undrtkr

I think God forgives when you seek his forgiveness and make a firm purpose of amendment to stop sinning.

If you consider DV a sin, then you cannot seek forgiveness because you continue to sin.

Well, is DV a sin? God calls us to marriage, and marriage is a commitment of mutual care. If the other person is not willing to continue a commitment of mutual care, then what do you do? Do you put up with infidelity, neglect, and/or abuse, excusing them because you have not been perfect yourself?

I have struggled with this and concluded that, for me personally, God calls me to remain committed to my H. If he is unable or unwilling to fulfill his vow, then I can best fulfill it and maintain my own human dignity by separation. Since we have children, the separation would need to be legal. I would need to remain unmarried.

Have reached this conclusion, I have let go. He has his own decisions to make. He can no more change the past than I can, and we both have lots of regrets.

I have to echo the sentiments about reading "Down, but not out" it is fantastic and sews together many different ideas and events of Biblical history into a cohesive whole. It is quite healing. It's a dense read but is well thought out.

Thank you all for your comments. It is apparent that this is a topic we are wrestling. We can all handle grace and forgiveness from our loving God.

Best wishes

Drummer- Yes, the guilt for both parties regardless if it was an A or not will remain.

I've heard it takes about 5yrs to truly get over a D.

Marriage is a gift from God. And like any good gift, there are rules and boundaries attached to it because he Loves us.

I wanted to share some of the things I've learned recently through a story that was shared with me.

I'm reminded of the story about a child who so deeply desired a bike. Before Christmas the child was constantly askings his parents if he could have a bike for Christmas. Being the loving parents they were, they ended up getting the child a bike. But because they were older they knew of the dangers of letting a child take off on his own without first giving him instructions to abide by, they knew the child could potentially be hurt. They told him he could ride his bike freely, but not go past a certain point because there was a freeway nearby. They also told him he needed to wear a helmet for his own protection, just in case he happened to fall. The parents wanted their child to enjoy his bike as much as possible, but they also put in rules and boundaries for his own protection.

Just like a parent would not let a child ride their bike out in the street without setting rules and boundaries, so does God do the same with us and Marriage. God doesn't want us to be hindered or just have an ordinary marriage. With his rules and boundaries he wants us to have the most fulfilling marriage possible!

God doesn't restrict us, sin restricts us. The world will say that with God there is no freedom, but God will say that with him, if you will follow his rules you'll experience maximum freedom.

IMHO, supported by scripture - divorce is not necessarily a sin. God allows it in two specific cases: adultery and desertion. Sin leads to divorce, and sin can follow a divorce. God allowed divorce in Moses' time and He allows it now. I have a problem calling all divorce a sin when God divorced Israel in Jeremiah 3:8.