What is the proper way to ask a spouse that you don't hate for a separation?

Ummm..... Without more details, there is just no way to answer this.

Personally, I would say that unless abuse is involved, you shouldn't be asking for a separation, you should be asking "what will it take for us to make this marriage work?"

Unless, of course, you have already done a good Plan A, and are ready to Plan B. In which case, I believe the site talks about how to go into Plan B. Which I would think qualifies as going into a separation.

Those are the standard MB answers, really. Without more detail, that's about all there is to tell you....

Plan A/B are not applicable as there has been no affair. I love my spouse as a friend. No romantic love. No big items of significance to mention...Just how is the right way to approach this topic? I would like to remain friends and business partners without any other trauma. How do I put it? That's it. I don't want to drag out the past. Just move on.

sorry..but I agree with penguin. This place if for those who have done all to try to make their marrige work.

Plan A is applicable here. It is just not for affairs. It is a way to encourage the growth of love between 2 people regardless of fidelity.

Read Harleys other books...

5 Steps to Romantic Love
and
His needs/Her needs.

You will see that there are ways to make your marriahe work. you have a good start because you "claim" to love your spouse as a friend. IMHO, if you think emotional trauma will ensue when asking for a seperation, than you have much you could be working on before that time.

sorry

Yep, I agree with Sunrise and Penguin. There was no affair when I started Plan A. At least none that I knew of. And I still loved my husband at that time. But I could feel my love ebbing and it was at times turned to hatred. And my H wasn’t in love with me.

Plan A. works. After some months, my husband was in love with me. Unfortunately, because he was in love with me, he felt there were no problems in our marriage, and refused all counseling, refused to read books, refused to change any of his behaviors.

Plan A works. He felt in love with me. But, what following Plan A does not do is make you fall in love with your spouse. For that to happen, you need your spouse to follow Plan A as well.

Eventually, after 3 Plan B letters, I simply moved out. Of course, STBX thought I was a coward for not telling him to his face, yet I had handed him a Plan B letter just three days before. He shouldn’t have been surprised.

Ultimately, there is no good way to tell your mate that you are through. Even if he feels the way you do, it is a severe blow.

Have you told your husband you are not in love with him? That your feelings for him have changed to ones of friendship? Have you read this site and taken the Emotional Needs Questionnaire and the LoveBusters Questionnaire so that if he asks you have some clue as to why your feelings changed?

Have you talked about wanting to separate at all?

By the way, there are several people still hanging out here that were on the brink of divorce, some even in the process of divorce, who recovered that romantic in love feeling and are now more happy in their marriage than they dreamed possible.

It is possible.

How long have you been married? How long have you been business partners? Do you have children?

I have read the books. Husband has read the books. Had several sessions with Dr. Harley. There were days I thought I could commit to stay married whether I was happy about it or not. Dr. Harley did ask me at one point if I was making a sacrifice....To a big extent, I do feel like I am making a sacrifice. I see my three kids and I tell myself do it for them. Just stick it out. Yes, he is trying. He brings me flowers and cards and that makes me feel bad.

History is this: Married 15 years. Three kids. husband verbally abusive (terrible temper, names, threats....) until last summer when I gave him the MB book.

I'm just so sad. I think the only reason I stay, besides for the kids, is because I like my home.

I realize that separation usually doesn't bring people back together and is a very serious step, especially in relation to kids. I just don't know what else to do now. I'm not moved by my husbands attempts to behave. The only good thing that is coming out of it is I don't feel hatred anymore. I at least feel somewhat stable.

Thanks for listening and for your replies.

See, that's what I was talking about. The fact that there is verbal abuse and threats makes a BIG difference. The fact that you have had counseling with Harley tells us something too.

Up until this post, I was ready to blast you for being one of the "pre-affair" kind of people who think because the butterflies in the stomach are gone, that love is gone and can never return.

But now I see a much different picture.

The thing is, despite the fact that I will be divorced myself within a few weeks, I really don't believe in divorce. I think there are times when it becomes the only rational choice left, but it should not be the automatic answer.

In your situation, it's hard to say. Part of me wants to encourage you to try some more, but that would only work if your husband is willing to make an effort too.

Did you develop some sort of plan to follow together? Does he know how you feel about the verbal abuse, insults, and threats? Does he even know when he is doing those things? Believe it or not, because of the home environment when they were growing up, some people might not see verbal abuse as a problem - that may be the way they were taught to show "love."

I'm not saying you should stick it out longer - you're the one who knows what you've tried, and you're in a much better position than any of us to know if he is capable of trying to fix these things. But before you do anything drastic, I would suggest stepping back and making sure you have really, really done all you can. "Feeling" that feeling of love really shouldn't come into it. Love is an action, a decision, far more than a feeling, and it can come back if everyone works toward that goal.

I have to say, with what you've told us now, I am impressed with one thing. At least you are addressing this. Because the way you are feeling is definitely a pre-affair state of mind. It's much, much kinder to address it up front than to just run off and have an affair. I know I would have handled it all much better if my STBX had actually ever talked to me about what was going on, or answered me all those years when I kept asking him what was wrong, that I knew things weren't right, but if he didn't tell me what the problem was, I had no way to try and make things better. I still don't really know in my case.

If your decision is ultimately to separate, my advice would be to be honest, sincere, and leave the door open for him to try again, because maybe he's just one of the hard-headed ones that need a bigger wake-up call to come around. And, unless you are afraid that he might get physically violent, talk to him in person. Don't just leave a note behind when you go. Don't slip out when he's not there. Those were some of the things that made me the maddest. He even had the nerve to tell me that he tried to get me to visit my family halfway across the country without him for Christmas so he could leave me while I was out there. That he felt it would have been better, because then I at least would have been with my family when I found out. Please - that wasn't concern for my feelings!

You sound like a fairly considerate person. More than anything, try to put yourself in his place, and ask yourself how you would want him to handle it if the situation were reversed?

Up until this post, I was ready to blast you for being one of the "pre-affair" kind of people who think because the butterflies in the stomach are gone, that love is gone and can never return.

That's pretty much what it is.

Plan A/B are not applicable as there has been no affair.
Well, not really, but…

In another post you wrote,
While married 15 years, I have found that having these crushes (3 total) has managed to keep me going mentally. I never acted on them. Just enjoyed the idea of admiring someone. Imagining what could be in a relationship. They came and went. I find now that another crush has arisen, however, this time I am in a place that I am also contemplating splitting up with my husband.
This is going to have a significant impact on your feelings and thoughts. No one could EVER hope to meet the expectations that a dream/fantasy relationship will fulfill.

The two things are really not connected, in my opinion.
The two things are VERY, VERY connected.

I would like to remain friends and business partners
Not gonna happen.

without any other trauma.
Really not gonna happen.

How do I put it? That's it. I don't want to drag out the past. Just move on. This is exactly where I am. I feel that if I do end up apart, there are other fish in the sea and, I might like to be by myself for a very long time. So my question is, am I a total mess thinking like that? Or is this a normal outcome of an unhappy marriage?
Which came first, the poor marriage or the “fantasy” relationship crushes? (not looking for an answer because it really doesn’t matter)

The poor marriage feeds the fantasy and the fantasy stifles the marriage.

History is this: Married 15 years. Three kids. husband verbally abusive (terrible temper, names, threats....) until last summer when I gave him the MB book.
Does this mean he is no longer verbally abusive and is willing (or is actually is) doing something for the marriage?

There were days I thought I could commit to stay married whether I was happy about it or not.
So why not commit to the marriage AND to make yourself happy in it?

<small>[ February 19, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I think you need to squarely face what divorce will mean for you. It will most likely mean your business will have to be sold. It will mean tearing the family apart and trying to put it back together in a make-shift way. It may mean you lose your home and have to find another. It will mean that the children will not be with you 100% of the time, and at a certain point, the children may chose their father as the primary custodian. It will definitely mean retrenching your finances. It will also mean various battles with your spouse, and there will be nothing to stop you two from bringing out the worst in each other. It will mean lonely days and nights. It will mean doing everything for yourself.

If all this sounds terrible, but yet the only sane option, then maybe you need to consider divorce. I knew that if I staid married I’d do one of three things. I’d have an affair, I’d kill myself or I’d do grievous bodily harm to my husband. Therefore, when he refused to leave, I left taking the children with me.

When you say Dr. Harley are you speaking of Dr. Willard Harley? Or were you talking about Steve Harley? Just curious.

In my case thinking about another man was the result of poor treatment. I never did until I was 10 years married. I have thought about why I would seem to get interested in one person or another and to me, it seems pretty natural...it’s trying to figure out what you want that you’re not getting. I totally agree that:

"No one could EVER hope to meet the expectations that a dream/fantasy relationship will fulfill."

I think that one does create a mythological person when admiring a person from afar. It’s not really them. You’re making up someone you can admire.

Fortunately, I am not a fan of starting something before you finish something else. I also have seen people indicate that you shouldn’t even consider dating for a very long time after ending a marriage. Seems like good advice from this perspective.

Bottom line is I am very deeply unhappy and want to be happy now, so I am trying to look myself and the marriage over thoroughly for answers. It’s good to get feedback from all types of people, even those who are not looking for an answer because it doesn’t really matter....

When Penguin said to "ask yourself how you would want him to handle the situation if it were reversed", I thought how interesting that was. I believe that if I treated my husband the way he treated me over these years, and he told me how hurt he was and how he didn’t love me anymore, I would agree that I was a big idiot and that I deserved whatever he wanted to do to me. Maybe he feels that way.... I also have tried to step back and ask myself what advice I would give someone else in the same situation....I saw someone without much money today and I thought she’s probably more concerned with having a roof over her head and couldn’t care less about a husband treating her bad...but then I think, yes she would.

In regards to Chris’ query, not that it matters...

"Does this mean he is no longer verbally abusive and is willing (or is actually is) doing something for the marriage?"

In fact he has stopped calling me names, trying to intimidate me, telling me he would punch me, pushing me, telling me to get out of the car in front of my kids....and I said he read the books and we had counseling - briefly. May continue but I don’t think so.

GreenGables, It was Steve.

Thank you Chris, you piss me off. I think it’s just your online tone. Sort of matter of fact, cold. You make statements like “not gonna happen” which makes you look cocky. I know you care.

I think I hear my mother calling me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by iMaccami:
<strong> What is the proper way to ask a spouse that you don't hate for a separation? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you thought about asking Steve for guidance on this, since you've counseled with him already? I know it will cost money, but you see what happens when you ask us amateurs.

I would also consider getting some help from a domestic violence counseling center. I know you say he has not been physically abusive and that he has changed his behavior, but the most dangerous time for women in an abusive relationship is when they try to leave, and if he starts thinking he made all these changes (which I suspect will seem much bigger in his mind than yours) and you are still leaving, he could become dangerous. He may not, but it might be wise to be prepared.

My own opinion-I think you need to acknowlege the efforts he has made. Obviously you don't feel sure he won't return to his old ways (which, BTW were the things my XH did before he turned physically violent, and he had periods of cleaning up his act, too), and he should know that as well. You can express your hope tha you can continue the business and a cordial relationship, but I think you should acknowlege that he may not want to do that. I don't think it is fair to come across as saying, "There's no good reason why we can't be friends" when he might think there are several good reasons. You can propose what you want to see happen and let him know you are open to at least discussing his ideas when he has had time to think about them.

Just some info from my own history. I miniminized my XH's behavior the whole time I was married to him. I went through a horrible four years after I divorced him. Now I am married to someone who is not at all abusive and I look back at what I put up with and think "Why? What was going through my brain?"

Divorce is not an easy thing or to be done lightly, but it can be a life saver in many ways.

Thank you Chris, you piss me off. I think it’s just your online tone. Sort of matter of fact, cold.
I don't know how to make it sound nice that your husband would not want to remain friends after you divorce him.

You make statements like “not gonna happen” which makes you look cocky.
Hmmm?
A spouse goes up to the other spouse and says, "I don't love you and I don't want to be married to you anymore. But I do want to be friends and stay in business with you."
That is what I mean by "not gonna happen." As much as you say you would like this to happen, he is not gonna want to stick around and be "friends".

I know you care.
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Yes, I really do care. I don't come here just to piss off people.

Boy, are you right about being friends, Chris.

It totally amazed me that my STBX actually thought that once I "got over it" I would realize that he was right. What he said was that he realized we made better friends than husband and wife, and that he would really miss being friends with me and having me to talk to. All in all, I think he pictured it as I would still be here, taking care of everything, and he could still come "home" whenever he wanted, and the only real difference would be who he was sleeping with.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

All he did was really, really piss me off. What did I tell him? I would NEVER be friends with someone who could lie to me, go behind my back, and treat me as badly as you have.

And until recently, what I found is that when I got upset and told him off, he got really mad - offended, even, as if he couldn't understand how I could act that way. And then the minute I happened to say anything nice at all to him, he was acting like we were best buddies again. At one point, wanted to get sympathy from me about having problems with OW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I know there are people out there who do manage to be friendly when they divorce - but let's face it. If you are telling him "I just don't love you anymore," chances are no matter how you try to do it or soften the blow, all he's going to see is the rejection. And remaining friends likely won't happen. I couldn't. Hard to remain friends with someone when all you really want to do si stick your foot...... well, I guess I don't need to finish that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I find it interesting that you even want to be friends with a man who mistreated you and threatened you.

You may want to shoot me an email greengablesmb@hotmail.com. I’d like to offer an off-board opinion, if you’d care for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>I don't come here just to piss off people. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh? Then where do you go to piss off people?

Well, I’ve been thinking about how I feel about Chris' post and I think it reminds me of how my husband responds to my thoughts and feelings. It’s more like he’s disciplining me or lecturing (maybe his military school background). I don’t raise my voice when I’m talking so I don’t understand why he gets so upset when I have an opinion which may not be similar to his own. I think he’s controlling in that. I feel like my feelings and thoughts are belittled. I rarely push my position because I know it just escalates his temper. Perhaps my tolerating his behavior, more often than not, has not helped him to stop. But at the time, that was the best I could do. I was trying to calm him down, to keep the peace. I’m mad at myself for not just standing up a long time ago and getting it over with - whatever would have happened. But on the other hand I think I’m in a much stronger position now and he has been able to realize that his behavior has caused a lot of pain and he needs to change. That is good for him. Additionally, he is a very good father (other than his temper) in many ways.

I have a hard time swallowing, he gets to hurt me hundreds of times and I just forgive him for it all. And I’m a bad person for wanting to not be with someone who has hurt me repeatedly. I would be hurting him once right? That seems fair. Of course I know it’s not that easy, maybe for some, but not for me.

Additionally, in regards to being friends - Perhaps the term “friends” has too vast a meaning...I’m thinking friendly - not best friends. In my case, my parents got divorced (and I never heard either ever raise their voice) amicably and since are able to interact peacefully, even friendly, in my opinion. I have them over for family dinners regularly and they both bring their new spouses. All four interact nicely. I think that depends on the person. I can see though, how it would be difficult for others. In our case, I can see that my husband might revert back to his old ways and not care how he’s acting in front of others. Sadly, the kids are very bright and know when that happens that he’s wrong and is behaving badly. I hope he will retain his new awareness of himself and keep his temper in check.

When Elspeth talked about minimizing the abuse....I do that too I think. One example: About a month ago my daughter did something unacceptable (pinched a good amount of money from us) and when I caught her, she became sort of hysterical - my husband lost it and picked her up by the arms and threw her down on sofa and struck her several times in the face. I told myself she probably deserved that. It scares me to think like that. What am I thinking? My parents didn't even spank me if my memory serves me (often it doesn't). And don't say well they should have! This is one thing I struggle with. My way to handle things usually gets bowled over by his. His opinions are louder and stronger than mine. Yes he’s making efforts to be better now. I am too.

Greengables, I think I know what you're going to tell me but I'll email you to confirm. The reason I would want to be "friends" is that his temper is not all of him. He is a good person, big hearted, loving father, he has feelings. He simply has a bad way of dealing with his anger or disagreement or whatever it is....Granted it's to an extent that may affect him very negatively, but that doesn't erase his good qualities. But, the way it was wrongly directed at me, I am justified in my being fed up.

You say to choose to be happy and married. Sounds very easy. And you may say it is. There’s just too much going on in my head still that rejects that path, today.

I still think that a separation will do me good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

imac, you thee to a women’s shelter now!!!!!!!!! Hitting a child in the face is never acceptable! You are brainwashed! And this happened only a month ago? Where are the huge changes he made? Hmm?

As a few here can attest, I do not use the word abuse lightly. I almost never accept the terms “verbal abuse” and “emotional abuse” because I think women use them to unfair advantage. When it’s egregious I do use the terms. You may have experienced emotional abuse, but hitting a child in the face is physical abuse. It cannot be explained or excused away. It is not a spanking. Sorry to be so forceful, but what lessons do you want your daughter to learn from you? Do you want a son-in-law hitting your grandbaby in the face?

PS: I bet you can’t guess what my opinion is. LOL. I’ll bet it’s not even about what you think it’s about!

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]</small>

If you have not “digested” anything I have written yet, I have not once said you should stay married. (neither have I said you should divorce). And I don’t think you could find a post of mine in which I say anyone should stay married or get a divorce.

But I do suggest everyone does what they to understand where they are, what went wrong and do what they can to make it work BEFORE they divorce.

I have a hard time swallowing, he gets to hurt me hundreds of times and I just forgive him for it all.
Where was that even hinted at?

And I’m a bad person for wanting to not be with someone who has hurt me repeatedly.
Again, I never said (or suggested that).

You say to choose to be happy and married.
No, I asked a question.
“So why not commit to the marriage AND to make yourself happy in it?”
This was in reply to your, “There were days I thought I could commit to stay married whether I was happy about it or not.”
If you ARE going to stay married, then CHOOSE to be happy about it, not “happy or not”.

Sounds very easy.
Yes it does.

And you may say it is.
I do not believe it would be easy in any way. But you are not going to do it until you make a decision to do it.
I don’t see you trying to make a decision.
I do see you trying to “wangle” (for lack of a better word) a way out of the marriage.
I’m not suggesting you stay or go. I AM suggesting you look at why you are considering it though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by elspeth:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>I don't come here just to piss off people. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh? Then where do you go to piss off people? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't come here JUST to do that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I also try to help.

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I don't have much time right now but just wanted to clarify that in regards to the two lines I had written that you thought I may have been responding to you, that was just my own wheels turning. I guess I should have divided it up.

Green Gables, thanks for the info. You're right about the kids. I'm going to give it more thought.

Thanks all. Good night.

Chris,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t see you trying to make a decision.
I do see you trying to “wangle” (for lack of a better word) a way out of the marriage.
I’m not suggesting you stay or go. I AM suggesting you look at why you are considering it though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. That is exactly what I'm trying to do. I just must not be doing it the way you would have me do it. I have made a decision, but I'm afraid to tell him because I don't look forward to hurting people and I am not sure what he'll do.

2. You said you find my behavior sly and tricky (the meaning of wangle)? I don't understand why you would think I am either.

3. I have looked.