First, I wanted to say that having a child probably wouldn't have kept her around. I know a girl from my church who left her H and 3 young kids for a guy she met online (moved from FL to NY!). The youngust of her kids was a baby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
There are several people on this forum whose wives left them and their kids or worse, took the kid/s with them.
The other thing was that I'm sure she didn't realize how extremely important physical intimacy is to a man - I know I didn't. If I would have taken the time and really cared enough, though, I probably could have figured it out! I guess women in general just tend to think sex is a luxury that men may want ALL the time, but can easily live without if need be. And yes, for some reason, most women tend to think it should be up to them how often. Definitely, though I think THE number one problem with sex in marriages is one or both partners not meeting the other's ENs. If that emotional connection isn't there (especially for the woman), then sex may even seem like a chore, something else to add to her already too long to-do list. Also, it can be much harder to become aroused if the emotional connection is lacking.
My best guess is that you may have done a lot better at meeting her ENs than her meeting yours, and you may have put in a lot more effort than she did, but you were probably unintentionally missing out on something important. Have you ever read The Five Love Languages? If not, you really, really should. I'll give you a quick lesson though.

We each have a primary love language (a way in which we naturally give and receive love) such as quality time, physical affection, gifts, acts of service, and words of affirmation. Many times we speak the language that comes naturally to us, but not to our spouses. Therefore, we are trying to show love to our spouse, but it's going right over their heads and they may feel very unloved or unappreciated because you are missing the thing that's most important to them.
Does that make sense? In other words, it's like a big giant miscommunication that can KILL a marriage. I would venture to say some of that was probably happening with you guys.
The problem is, people often realize too late, like me. Once I realized what WH's love languages were and also how important sex is to him, and started doing those things, it was like hitting a brick wall.
I'd greet him at the door in sexy lingerie and he'd barely bat an eyelash. The best I'd often get from him was (after me saying something), "looks nice...". This from someone who for 5 years of our marriage wouldn't leave me alone!
But that's what happens, by the time a lot of people start to make the appropriate changes, their spouse is too far gone emotionally and mentally (sometimes physically too!).
I bet your WW's main love language is quality time (and maybe acts of service too). And that's probably one of your lower ones (for most guys it is). That would explain the sensitivity she has to some of the things you've mentioned. Yours are probably physical touch and words of affirmation.

Anyway, I wisj that women realized how important sex is to their husbands. That it is a NEED, not a want. I remember my friends sitting around whining about how much their husbands wanted sex. Now I tell them, look, be grateful! I wish so much my husband still wanted me like that. You don't know what you have till it's gone...
Also, I have realized, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. Laying there rather passively and letting your husbans do all the work -yeah that's not the greatest for wither of you. The more a woman initiates, the more energy she puts into it, etc, the better it will be for her. I know once I started doing that, I wanted it all the time! You've got to give to get...but I don't think a lot of women realize this.

The porn thing - yes, bad on everly level. I understand why you (and other guys) would resort to it, moreso than I used to. My WH had issues with it too, and when he opened up to me about it I was not very understanding. But it is a huge LB for almost any woman (it makes us feel like crap). And it's not good for you either. It very easily becomes an addiction and grows worse and bigger and eventually out of control and can be very damaging. Also, it stunts the growth of your relationship and your ability to work through things, such as differing sex drives. I know you probably know all this, but I had to say it anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I know this is probably far-fetched, but I say throw it all out right now. Now is a great time to make positive changes in your life. If there's ever a chance of working things out w/ your wife, wouldn't it be great for her to find out you've thrown it all out/stopped it? And it would be good for you too, and also a head start on any future relationship.
Well, there's my 50 cents...haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I understand your point. I did stop for a while b/c I knew it bothered her. She thought I was comparing her. I wasn't. When I moved to my new job, I needed some outlet. The thing is, men are visual. Women read romance novels. These things are used to get things started so to speak for both. Just to get relief. I don't know if she has an issue with it now or not. But if she does, I will promise to control myself. When I found her notes, it hurt me emotionally. Those were real people she was talking & writing to. It made her feel good. She has mentioned she can control it & thats just the way police joke around. Pictures & videos are just that, 2-d images that can't be touched & you can't share thoughts with. People you can, especially after being with them for 10 months, 15 hours a week. Its emotional cheating. I guess these friends provided an EN that she wouldn't let me provide, even if I wanted to. She never let on that I could. I mentioned to her several times to lets talk about our intimate issues. It never went anywhere. Her birth control meds made things worse. 2-3 times a month was about it. I think her EN her friends gave her was 'common interests'. They all had the same profession, career intersts & career goals. I think she was drawn into a crowd that would accept her for her similar interests. As time went on, these friends made an impact on her. She started to take up their interests & ways. She started to curse more & her moral standards started to slip into a different perspective. Things that weren't ok years ago, were now ok. She wanted children immediately, now she wants to put it off until she feels she is ready. Almost a complete turn around. She has definitely come out of her shell. She is in her rebellion stage now & finds fault with me & our relationship.

Just like it's a fact that men NEED sex, it is a fact that most women will feel compared and found lacking when their husbands look at pornography. It is just simply the way a woman is made. Heck, I remember as a teenager not wanting to go to the beach witha girlfriend I thought had a nicer body than me for fear of being compared and looking bad next to her. It is a very real issue for us. And it makes us feel that our husbands are not satisfies with us. (Which in many cases they're not - cause we won't put out!! haha)
What about the love languages? What do you think?

I think you might be right. Hers maybe 'focused' quality time / interests. I mean she has told me before, she wants time by herself with me or no one not around. As of now, she has this desire to be just alone or out on her on, which she finds to be weird. I don't. I think my love langusge are all 5; Quality Time, Words of Affirmation,Gifts, Acts of Service, & Physical Touch. Not it any order though. I want to be told that I'm loved (really loved). It makes me feel happy. I know now my W has been deceitful about that. She told me she loved me right up until she dropped the bomb. We even were intimate that day. Which really hurt me. How could you be that way someone, knowing what you were about to do to them? My psych suggested that maybe she was seeing if there was any 'spark', so to speak, left in her for me one last time. I don't know.
I feel I am the giver & she is the taker in our relationship. I would bend over backwards for her. I knew she wouldn't for me. For instance, one time while she still taking her class, she mentioned "I would take a bullet for my friends". I was expecting her to mention me, she didn't, until I asked her about me. She said "you too". That hurt. This weekend I am going to look at this notebook she has written in & try to see where she is coming from. She says that I probably might not want to look at it, b/c it might, excuse me I know it will, hurt me. I just want to know. I'm sure the stuff is petty or old news & things I can't change. She can be a mean person.

My email today. She asked how my session went last night with the psych.

It went great, I went into great detail. She really needs to talk to you. She would like to have a joint session with us.

Her reply:

glad it went well. it sounds like everybody really needs to talk to me...are you telling them I am f***ed up or something? I don't know when I will be able to do all these sessions...I guess I can do one on Friday, even though I'm on call.

Most people speak all 5 love languages at least some, but everyone has 1 or 2 that are primary. There is a questionarre you can do to find out. Some people are very spread out though - WH is that way, which is really kind of frustrating for me - I have to work really hard! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It'll hurt to read that notebook, but at least you'll have a better idea what her problem with you is.

What do you like about your wife?

Theres not much I do like about her now. But if I tried to think of something I like about her, I would say that she has alot of ambition & drive. When she wants something, she can put alot of energy into getting it. She likes go out & do recreational things like camping, movies, dining, etc. I think thats about it. Theres too much I don't like about he right now.
She doesn't purchase things wisely (complusive buyer), can't keep monetary records (3 bounced checks I know of), she doesn't cook or clean, she is messy (clothes in the floor etc),etc, etc, etc.

Are you sure she's not 17 instead of 27? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So, what made you fall in love with her? (Obviously, it's hard to like much right now)

Well she said shes going thru her 'adolescence' right now.
I fell in love with her, b/c she didn't know of the world. She was quiet & reserved then. She was intersted in music (guitar) like me & seemed to be totally interested in what I had to say. I loved her soo much I would do anything for her. She had never 'been' with anyone before, until she met me, which I liked alot. I met her in church, of all places. Now, she says she'll never go to church again. I mean look at her post above with the language she uses. Her mouth is so foul & crude now. She is a totallly different person from the one I knew. She used to be calm & now she is wild.

I think she is going thru her, what some call, 'external rebellion stage'.http://inspiredawakenings.com/rebellion.htm

She is rebelling against all figures she associates with control. Her father sheltered her up until we married. Even today, he still calls her & asks her where she has been & when will she be by to see him. She associates a marriage with control as well. In a M, you can't just do what you want to, thats all part of a relationship. She would say to me "you are treating me like a child". I dont know where that was coming from. She would reply that she didn't know either, but it just feels that way to her. I guess she didn't like me asking about where she was going & who with sometimes. I mean for 4 1/2 years up until last year, we did everything together. After class started for her, she found other people to do stuff with. I felt insecure & rejected since I didn't have the friend base that she had. She was my friend. But during counseling I realized her need for friends. Looking back, she allowed her relationship with these friends to jeapordize our M, to the point of where its at now.

Hmmm, sounds a lot like my husband. We met in church too - youth group. We lead a youth group together for 4 years. Now he doesen't want to go to church either. He uses the "they're all hypocrites" excuse.
It actually sounds a lot like me too - sheltered, naive, innocent. I never even had a drink till I was 23 (last year!). And I have allowed my wild streak to come out, experimenting with some things I probably shouldn't (not drugs), since all this started w/WH. Part of it was wanting to show him I could be fun too, part of it was just not caring about being perfect and doing everything right anymore. But I didn't carry it to the extreme they have - wanting to throw their marriages away.

Is that all that made you fall in love with her -her innocence? (If so, you're really in trouble cause that's gone now for sure!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Also, are you still going to church?
That's neat that you play the guitar, I always wished I was more musical. I love music, I just have no talent for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Did you ever play for the church worship band or anything?

No I don't as of yet. I did go to my mothers church for about a year. Its a small holiness church, very rural. There I met W thru a friend (blind date). She went to anoher church, but was what I considered a Sunday christian. She went her whole life up to that point. Sunday school, bible camps, etc. She wasn't saved though. I didn't take church seriously until something in my life changed me. I was so depressed about some things, that I decided to make that final step.
Right now I live in tallahassee, & plan on playing guitar in a church sometime in the future. I moved to get a higher paying job. My W was to move too, but changed her mind in Dec. She wanted to stay back, b/c she didn't want to leave her friends & lose job connections. She could live with me & make twice as much money & there is alot more to do. I guess that would mean, she would have to do them with me though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . She has hurt me so bad. I knew this was going to happen back in november though. I had a gut feeling.

In replying to your other post. I fell for innocence, b/c in a sense I was still innocent myself. I tried to keep myself from lured into what the 'world' could offer. The world just offers immediate things, not long term things. The enemy can make things look real good. The enemy is letting the W & your H see the world as a place to be free in. Its not. I tried telling her the world looks good, but its a cruel place & can destroy you.
I experimented in the world before I met her, but found I didn't want that life. Its not stable. I wanted someone who was stable (shes not at this moment). Someone I could have a family & someone I could grow old with & love with all my heart. She just doesn't want that right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Just wanted to say, I've had a pleasure talking to you. I wish I could talk to you more. Is there some way I can contact you via internet?

I'm not all that far - near Tampa. We are both from Sarasota originally but lived in NC for 4 years due to WH being in the military. We were so blessed to get transferred here, near our family. That's a luxury most military families don't have. WH finally got everything he wanted for so long, and now we can't even enjoy it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I've been very serious about my relationship with God since I was very young, and never went through any real rebellion. I've been having a hard time lately though, I've done some things that I knew weren't right but just didn't care (a reaction to my pitiful emotional state), and now I just feel like there's this big wedge between me and God. I've never gone so long without praying or reading the Bible before...but I also just feel like everything is somehow magnified and worse when I am right in that area, I guess cause I can't be numb, and because I expect God to move and I am let down. It's just an emotional roller coaster I can't take. It makes no sense, I know. I should be relying on Him more than ever right now, but I'm not... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I am in uncharted territory in my life right now...
A couple of our friends in NC played the guitar and we'd go over to their house and they'd play and we'd all sing, it was great, I miss that.
We've had a lot happen in our lives for as young as we are - a lot of responsibility, and I miscarried twice, one was a triplet pregnancy.
WH resents all of that. I had a really hard time dealing with the miscarriages and that's when things really went downhill. WH wanted me to get over it so his life would go back to normal. He didn't even care about the loss of our babies, and he has told that to MC in front of me - that it just really didn't bother him. Nevermind that I threw up everything (and I mean everything) I ate for the 2 months I was pregnant only to find out the day of my first check-up that there were triplets and they had all died. Then had to have surgery and lost so much blood I almost had to have a transfusion and then went through months of depression...He just wanted his life to go back to normal. So while I'm going through all of this, he decides since I'm not meeting his needs, he'll start hanging out w/ my best friend and her H, eventually leading to his EA (PA?) with her.
Whew...how in the world did I get into all of that?
Well, now you know some of my story...
I forgot what I was even replying to originally!
Sorry!

roseandgrace@hotmail.com
We are going to get yelled at though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

jr_diablo@yahoo.com
(a friend used to call me diablo 'devil' b/c I had a goatee that made me look like the deviled ham mascot)

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. Just know that God hears you. I pray that He helps you thru all what you are going thru now. Please pray for me. I know this website is for trying to save relationships, but sometimes God has a plan that is different. I feel my W is confused right now. Our psych told me last night that she believes "the grass is greener on the other side". The psych told her that its not always true most of the time. I think that me having to be away from her since mid Oct really gave her time to think about things for herself. She told me one time that at the beginning she didn't like being at home by herself. After a while, though she started to enjoy being by herself. She could turn on the TV, go to bed early, etc, without having to worry about me being there. I guess she started to feel independent about herself. Most of her classmates are single & do as they please. She wants the same thing. She never raeally had that chance to be truely independent. I met her when she was making a transition between home life with her parents to college life. So basically, she has never been alone. To me that is foreign. I have been alone in my past (college years). I hated every moment of it. When I met her, I thought this is wonderful, I'm not alone any more. Finally someone I can love & cherish. Unfortunately during the beginning I could tell somethings were not quite right. I felt I was doing all the giving & she the taking. I remember feeling that I needed to brreak it off with her b/c of that. I felt she rarely gave back, that maybe that was her personality. But my wanting to be with someone overruled. Two years later, we are married. I planned the honeymoon(england) & my folks paid for the wedding (they planned it as well). Her folks didn't do much (the notion apples don't fall far from trees applys in her case). But something you said earlier about cake-eaters, really struck me. My family said that exact same thing along time ago. She wants her cake & eat it too.
Is there anything else you can think of that I might reveal that would put more exposure on my M?

I am sorry, it's not that I don't believe you, because I do, but you asked if there was anything else I could think of...
Here's the thing. My WH out of the blue told me he didn't think he loved me anymore, had been lying to me about his feelings for one of my best friends, later told me he was in love with her like he was never in love with me and she fulfilled him in ways I never could. Then he put me through 7 months of hell, living with me, sleeping with me, telling me he was commited to our marriage, all the while knowing he had gven us a 6 month deadline (which I didn't know). Then he secretly opened his own bank account and changed the direct deposit to go into it (our only source of income) and left me with no $ in our joint account. He told the OW and others he was planning on moving out while I was visiting my sister, but failed to tell me. I had to find out from OW's husband, after I found out he had resumed contact with them from my 4 year old, who he told to lie to me about it! All that to say, I think you can see what a childish, selfish you-know-what he's being, BUT, even so, there are so many things I could have done differently or better that maybe would have changed everything.
I just know that it is so important to really dig down and realize where you could have gone wrong, not just as a couple, but as a husband (or in my case wife), and then learn how to change those things so they don't repeat themselves.
I have no idea what those things could be, or if there are any, but I cannot imagine there not being some, (unless you're Harley himself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) but I haven't heard you mention even one (I think). That is a bit of a red flag, it's hard to believe that it has ALWAYS been her at fault. Gosh, I really hope you don't take this wrong...
Are you getting me? I am wondering if this isn't actually maybe even a tiny part of the problem?

You are older than her though, by what, 6 years? That's quite a bit. And you've had your independence whereas she hasn't. So, it is very likely that a lot of this is caused by that and the fact that your relationship may have always been somewhat parent/child because of that. That definitely makes total sense.

I think that when you haven't experienced a lot of the "world", when you do, it's like a drug. You just want more, until you get it out of your system. I have experienced that some in the past months, so I can relate to that somewhat. My sister, who was a little wild in high school and college, got me to go out (to a club) with her and her friends for her bachelorette party. That was my first experience with anything like that, and now, whenever we visit each other, I always want to go out, and she's like, "I wish I never took you out in the first place!" See, to her, she's over it really, because she's gotten it out of her system. But for someone like me or your wife, we never did, so it's a new experience for us, and new experiences are always exciting. And the very nature of the lifestyle she's leading is an addictive trap. But she will find that uncontrolled, it's leading nowhere but places she really doesen't want to go. And also, one thing just leads to another, and you just get in deeper and deeper. Then you have guilt to contend with, and that will keep you face down in the mud...
She's going to come to her senses eventually, I just hope it's not too late.

Sure there are things I did that was wrong too. But don't you focus on them. You & I didn't decide that working it out wasn't worth the energy like they did. Your H & my W acted as though nothing was wrong right up to the point they told us. I thought we had worked out alot of stuff during counseling. But I also think the counseling hurt as well. It opened old family wounds for her. She realized her dad was a controlling person. She just transferred that to me. Things seemed OK before this class started. BUt your right, the parent child relationship. The counselor mentioned that I was up higher on the scale while she was still down on the child end. She didn't seem that way years ago. We related on the same level. I think exposure to a new life style looked great to her. Since you can't just do what you want to in a relationship, she rebelled. Sure there are things I shouldn't have done. I know. She has written 11 pages about them, remember. Last year was the worst year ever for me. I thought I was in hell. Now I'm back in it. But you can't focus on what you could have done better, you wil drive yourself crazy. This is not your fault. We didn't make them do any thing. They CHOSE to do this, even to the point of being deceptive about it. My counselor said that the brakes were never applied on her part. I gave her space back in October. Everything seemed great then, she was to move to be with me. Then she changes her mind at the last minute. I want to make her happy, but she won't tell me how. I don't want to be a parent to her. I used to ask her to pick up her stuff from the floor, but after a while I just didn't care.

The reason that I think about the things I did wrong is because I don't want to repeat them in the future - either with WH or in a future relationship. That is very important to me.
For a long time, I did beat myself up for the mistakes I made. I hated myself for them - blamed myself for ruining my own life. (And WH has the nerve to question my sincerity.) But I know that I did not deserve this, and that if WH had handled his issues like a mature adult, this never would have happened. Like you said, he waited until he was too far gone to even really tell me about it. (He blames me for that too, saying I am too defensive and emotional to talk to.)
But that's not the point anyway. It's not about blame. I really don't care about that, all I know is that I have been willing to work this out and love him through it, and he hasn't.
However, like I said, I have learned some very valuable lessons from my mistakes (like the sex thing), that I feel will make any future relationship (including with WH if that happens) really great. Honestly, in a way, I'd rather all this have happened than to go on the rest of our lives making the same mistakes, being unfulfilled and never knowing why.