Hello fellows post-ers!

Where to start? Lets go with been married 12 years, two wonderful kids (11 and 9), I'm 32 and in the Navy.

My wife and I have been in a stagnant spot for awhile now. Sort of just passing thru life without really staying in touch like we should have.

Now, for the last 3 months, she has been falling in love with another WOMAN. She says she has lost all interest in me, and in the male half of the species.

I have tried to talk to her about trying 'us' again. She says she still cares about me, but does not believe we can ever have a real marriage again due to her lack of attraction.

Plus, she is very happy with her new love. I guess the years of passive neglect left her with a huge need for attention, and since she is getting it, she doesn't want to give it up.

Now she wants to move forward with seperation. Our kids and families do not know anything yet. I do not want to move out, but she wants me to so she can 'move on' with her new life.

She is great parent, and was a great wife at one time. I still love her, and would like to get back to fixing our marriage. But without her wanting to, I don't think it can happen.

Currently we are living as 'roommates', she leaves once the kids are in bed to go be with her girlfriend. What she wants is to be single, not have to 'take care' of me, etc.

Should I give up? I wish I didn't love her, but I do, and at the same time I want her to be happy. I would prefer she be happy with me though.

Any advice is appreciated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mike

Sorry you’re here but welcome. I have a couple of questions. Does your wife claim she’s always been a lesbian? Or is this new to her? Women do seem to have a more fluid sexual preference thingy. And it’s possible that OW is just a way of acting out against the neglect and possible love busting you’ve been doing.
But if your wife has had past women lovers before you, she may truly be a lesbian and her life with you was something of a lie. In that case, marriage recovery will be more difficult.
My other question is what’s up with your name? Are you a flirt? And if so, please define what you mean by “flirt.” It means different things to different people. Have you had an affair? Emotional or physical?

Dear Mike,

Sort of adding to what Greenbables already said.

Trust is imortant in a marriage, and if you allowed your wife to feel like she could not depend on you, then she may have lost some of her interest in you.

My wife gives me the feeling that I can't trust her on a number of levels. It is one reason I'm leaning toward separate residence.

Have you read SAA, Surviving an Affair, by Dr. Harley? Many MB posters speak highly of the book.

You don't discuss much about how emotinal needs are being met, and which ones have been dismissed as unimportant.

Apparently the marital bedroom is not working, so the websites of curezone.co, themarriagebed.com and sexualforums.com, come to mind.

I suspect that your listening skills may be challenged, as the competion from another woman for listening skills would probably mean that you would have to have super counseling skills to hold a candle.

My guess is that marriage counseling would be extremely risky, as there is probably an oppostional element involved, which is really tricky to deal with. You, However, could probably benefit from some ideas on how to deal with attempting to increase intimacy.

Have you done any Parenting classes? The more parenting classes my wife and I did, the better we got along. What are your wife's plans for the kids? How doyour deployments affect things? What are her plans for a house for the kids? What if you get transferred, and she wnat too stay wih her girl friend? What else is attractive about the girl friend? How do you get along with the girl friend? What dose the girlfriend like to do with your wife?

Thanks for serving in the military.

<small>[ February 25, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Thanks for the replies!

Someone to talk to is so very nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Let's see... no, wife has not always been into women. We met and where married when we were both very young (19/20) and I was her 'first' physical relationship.

After about 5 years of marriage (and dealing with me being out to sea alot, leaving her with two young children), she told me that she wanted to 'experiment' with other people. I was convinced at the time that it was not a lack of love on our parts, but just a curiousity. I let her have a couple of PA (with men), but she kept our relationship going at the same time. It actually made us closer in many ways, and made our physical relationship better too. I know it sounds crazy, but it was true. She then said she was curious about other women, and eventually tried that as well. At that point, she started feeling more attracted to women than men, but still had strong feelings for me. That whole experience lasted about 2 years, she had had her fun and let it go on her own. Since then, it has just been us, but we both knew that she was still attracted to other women.

And yes, before you ask, she did 'share' one of these other women with me. But again, it was just physical, and we were both still committed to each other.

Fast forward about 5 years, we have been just with each other. I have never had a PA or EA, and as far as I know, she did anything other than what I have mentioned.

When i got back from my last deployment, Dec 2002, we never seemed to click. We fought alot, rarely were intimate, and did little to make those 'deposits' in the love bank. After reading the material on this site, I think I was more of a passive neglect-er, while she was more of the love buster, trying to wake me up. Several times throught 2003 we tried to work on things, but she is very, very against any type of counseling, so we never figured out how to make progress.

Then in Nov 2003, she met this OW. It was very innocent at first (of course), but they rapidly became very much best friends and lovers. She was completely honest with me about it, told me everything as it happened, and how she felt. We talked about how we had not really been 'in-love' for awhile, and I told her I wanted her to be happy. It was and still is my highest priority.

To myself, I hoped this would blow over, but her feelings for OW (and vice versa) are very strong. They are both the type of women who want to be with someone all the time, and they seem to be quickly becoming a very close couple.

Now I know I screwed up letting her go so easy. But all I wanted was for her to be happy, then hopefully realize that she could be happy with me too.

Anyways, that's some of the background.

Now for answers to your excellent questions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My 'mikesaflirt' name is a bit of a joke between me and the wife. I use it on other online places too. Actually, I am very quite and usually shy LoL. Over the last few months, both the wife and OW have tried to get me to go out with other women, so the screenname was made as my 'chat' name. So far, I have not had the interest in other women. I miss mine too much.

As for emotional needs, I think I stopped meeting hers a long time ago. Not for lack of effort, I spend all the time I have with her, and attempt to do everything I could to make her happy. Before coming here, I didn't know about the love bank, but it makes sense. My problem was not knowing what really made her happy.

As for me, wife is very controlling, and very much into things being 'her way'. For example, she would say she wanted me to cook dinner for the family some times. I would try to make something everyone likes, and 5 minutes into starting, she would be telling me how messed up I was, how slow I was, how one kid doesnt like that and the other doesnt like this, etc. then she would just say never mind, I'll do it myself. That's how many many things went in our house. Think that is a love buster (judgemental?) and I know for sure it made me stop wanting to please her for awhile.

Yes, competing with another woman is not a fair fight. They understand each other on a level I can't imagine. And of course she has a very strong physical attraction to her as well. So basically I am screwed!

Attempting to increase intimacy? That's interesting, I may look into that, but currently I am scolded for even calling her by previous 'pet' names (honey, sweetheart, etc). For 12 years I got 'the look' if used her actual name, now it's required. Not to mention, no contact whatsoever. No hugs, nothing. I really miss the hugs too.

We have not taking any parenting classes, but she is the model parent in every way. She has a very natural way with all children, which led her to working in the elementary schools. I see no problems with how either of us raise our children, and even if I did, she is against all forms of counseling. Goes against the she-knows-everything and is always right personality she has. Luckily, she is excellent with our kids, I have no fear they will always be her priority and well taken care of. But even with that, I still want to be part of their daily lives, not some dad that they only see twice a month, just to be sure they get a well rounded view of the world and (hopefully) grow up a little less uptight that her.

Military life has been hard on her. The seperation, the having to do everything alone and then suddenly I am there. I think I was extremely patient and empathetic with her on that. I never tried to change how she was doing things when I got home. Never pressured her for intimacy, etc. But somehow she still felt I was just another 'responsibility' on her when I got back this last time.

That reminds me, one issue we have had for a while is that she has viewed me as a burden to every problem, while I view her as a partner. Does that make sense? Whenever problems would arise (life issues in general, not marrital), I would try to work on them as a team, but she was never into that idea, and frequently treated me like I just made things worse. I hate that!

Anyways, more questions to answer...

As for her plans, i am not totally sure. But she has mentioned that eventually she wanted to live with her girlfriend as a couple, with the kids. One of her best friends from a few years ago is a lesbian, and her and her partner both left thier husbands, with the kids, and live together quite happily. So she has a perfect example of a successful a relationship to model after to encourage her.

We were planning on adding on to our house this year, it is on the small side. During recent conversations, I mentioned that if she wanted to live with her girlfriend, I could add on to the house a mini appt type setup that I could move into, so I could still be completely involved with my kids. She hates the idea, says she needs more distance. Guess I understand that, it would be akward at times.

As for the OW, I get along with her great. She is really cool, very nice. The wierd thing is how much alike we are. And even wierder yet, she displays several attributes that I have, that my wife hates! For example, she likes to play video games. I do to. But for years my wife as belittled me for it as a waste of time, so I only played when I was with one of my kids on a game. Now she actually bought a $50 game for her girlfriend and encourages her to play! What's up with that? And that's only one example, there are other things she likes about her OW that she hated in me. Think it's the 'romantic love' thing acting there, as long as she is 'in love' she acts different.

Okay, I have rambled for long enough. Guess months of not having anyone to discuss this with has really made me needy LoL

I just hate the thought of living without my wife, of being away from my kids any more than I have to, etc.

Just sent the wife email, telling her we needed to discuss many issues. I told her in december that I would give her space to find herself, well time is up and we need to make some decisions.

thanks for listening, and replying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Youre welcome for the military service, i am very proud to serve in the finest Navy the world has ever seen. Thank you for all your support, and for paying your taxes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm going to jump and pre-warn you... you're not going to get a lot of sympathy. Your open marriage is going to have a lot of people here thinking that you got what you deserved.

Frankly, your situation is so far beyond anything that I have experienced that I'm just going to tell you that I'm sympathetic. It sucks to feel like you're being pushed out of your own family... but at the same time you gave her permission to involve other people in your marriage. With an attitude like that in a marriage... honestly, it's only a matter of time before you or she meets someone who you like more or better or whatever and viola... now you have competition. You can't really challenge it because you actively agreed to let it happen... now all of a sudden you're changing your mind?

I'm not a believer in swinger relationships and open marriages. I think you're the first poster in such a situation. I feel bad for you, for your wife, and for your kids. They get to grow up in a family dynamic where it is okay for the parents to meet their needs with other people... and now all of a sudden you're not okay with that? Why don't you invite this other woman to come live with you? Your wife is already a roommate, why not have more?

Sorry if I seem flippant here... but you're so messed up that the only thing I can really think of is that you need to get your own act together first. I'm not talking about deployments... but your own attitudes as far as what and why you even wanted a marriage and a family in the first place. There are plenty of guys who never get married and have kids. You see... most people expect monogamy along with some kind of commitment in a marriage. You and your wife don't and so the only real handle you have on each other is whether you have something to offer that they can't get somewhere else... maybe money, comfort, etc. I don't know. She found a better deal. Either overhaul yourself and compete or accept this as a consequence of what happened. Either way, welcome to the legal system. You'll find that family dissolution isn't very fair to men and that most courts are going to be very unsympathetic to your story.

Dear Mike,

Lyxa has expressed my fear of what might happen, having an extra woman along, and I have turned down such opportunites in their early stage some 3 or 4 times. I salute your courage to try to please your wife, in ways which are beyond my level of bravery.

A signal that rings out for me is that your wife is unkind to you. I suggest you consider your wife might be oppositional. Theroretically, only youngsters are ODD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder. The reason this consideration is important, is because the rules for dealing with a defiant person are radically different from ordinay dealings. I suppose everyone can be ranked into a percentile of Oppositional. I have noticed that some people are actually pleasantly cooperative, just not at my house.

I am currently working through a two CD audio set by Dr. James D. Sutton, WHAT PARENTS NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ODD (2003), docspeak.com. I have a college kid who is still largely oppositonal, after being classified ADHD in high school. I recently called the evaluator and mentioned that ODD had been missed, and I have not gotten a call back. My wife has been listening to the cd's with me. She refuses counseling and refuses to consder that she herself is ADHD-ODD. My wife did call me today to appologise for yelling at me in a mean way, which may be a signal that she is learning what ODD is about, and how to handle it better.

I am having to modify the priciples on the CD's and booklet, a little, as the college kid is not an adolescent anymore. But the principles would probably be sufficiently clear so that you could apply them to your wife.

Basically, you don't criticise an oppositional person, you only discuss what you are going to do in the future to make things work better. The oppostional person will find ways to set you up as a bad guy, and then you will walk into it, and then they will conclude you are a bad guy, which is how they set you up.

Oppositional people also find ways to irritate you, so that you politely ignore irritations for a while, to be polite, then you finally give an overblown response to something small. This is another type of set-up, I suppose. The key to handling your irritation is to recognize the game, and speak of your suggestions in terms of next time, and figure ways to avoid getting sucked in, and displaying irritation. The key is the feeling when you see your Oppoositnal person, is to focus on your respecct and recognition for the worth of the person. This sounds so simple. But it is a monster challenge, because the Oppositional has spent years trying to figure out how to irritate you, and they are damn good at it.

I recommended parenting classes, not because your wife is a bad mother. What is important in your case, is that your wife realize what a great father you are. You can take the parenting classes by yourself, and counsel your wife on why you are a great father. What stages your kids are in, and what you are doing to further their growth into the next stage.

I mantioned communication courses. Another fella got a counsleor on his plan at work to help him develop better communicatih skills. Parenting courses specialize in communicatin and listening also. Take an hour and look in the yellow pages under churches, and call them up and find out about what classes are available in your area. Be aware that churches are looking for money, post back what they are offering. Most churches have their own view of reality, that you need their permission to go to Heaven. Look in the goverment pages, and call social service agencies.

It is nice that your two wives allow you to go out with other women, but I recommend a pass on that for now. It sounds like a trap.

It took me a while to develop my massage skills, and I have more to learn. esalen.org has a massage instruction tape I find very instructional. I suggest that you not expect any hugs, but get some baby oil, offer a good foot massage. Search the internet for other Massage Instruction Tapes.

I do not hear that you have a plan you are working. I'm not saying all counseling or self-improvement courses don't have some draw-backs, but you are already behind, so I suggest you find some positive program to work, and start. A sympathetic counselor would be a good start, as your santity is being tested and stressed. You need a good suport group. The first or second counselor may not be best for you, so be ready to change.

In addition to paying taxes, I try to extend a special courtesy on Forums to Military people, and their spouses. Thanks again for your Military service.

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Hello again!

I figured I would get blasted for the last post. It is a difficult situation to explain to those who have not lived it. Actually, after reading the material on this site, I may have been more cautious about letting her open the marriage. The goal was to let her curiousity run its course and make the relationship stronger over time. It worked before, this time it backfired.

Part of me laughs at the double standard held by most people concerning sex. Yes, it is the most intimate of contact with another person, but I do not feel it is any more legitimate than the other 'emotional needs'. You would not have been so quick to judge me if I had said my wife was getting her 'recreational activity' needs filled by someone else, but when it's the 'SF' need getting filled elsewhere, its all my fault for letting her.

Anyways, thanks Whaler for your reply as well.

The footrub idea would work, except that was a special treat I used to give her before all this, probably 3-4 times a week, especially after extra stressful days for her. Now they are not allowed either. I am sure she is trying to prevent any possible feelings for me to resurface, since they would 'rock her new boat'.

Don't know, figure i can wait a while longer. Eventually this new thing may fizzle, and then the new rules can come into being for us.

Or I will become single. As lonely and pitiful as it may feel at first, it may have it's advantages in the long run. She was difficult to handle alot of the time, even while being in love with her.

Oh and Lyxa, why on earth would I bring up my wife's past sexual history in court? It has no bearing on anything, and actually in this state, she could sleep with the whole town and it would have no relevance in court. As for the fairness, at least I still have money. Wife knows she has to play fair with the kids, she could not live on even the maximum amount a court would require me to pay. In order to maintain her lifestyle, she has to depend on my generosity. Not that I would hold money over her for anything else, but I will not be prevented from being in my children's life on a near-daily basis. If she wants to play that, she can move out and I will be the custodial parent and she can pay me child support. Luckily I am on shore duty and could work that way for several years.

Anyways, nite all.

Thanks again!

Mike

Dear Mike,

Sorry you feel like you got disinvited to the MB Forum. Other sites on these issues might be themarriagebed.com, sexualforums.com and curezone.com. I tried to make you feel welcome. There are a wide variety of posts on this forum, and some positions are more vocal than others.

I tried to propose a number of ideas of paths for you to consider. Often my ideas miss the mark, and something similar, and sometimes the opposite, ideas turn out to be better. I have struggled with self-improvement myself, so I have the benefit of the struggle. Many people have not had yours or my problems, so they are unable to synergize with the struggle. Post back if you want to discuss the tribualtions of any path you might choose.

Wait! When was Mike disinvited?

If someone complained to a mod, and got him disinvited just because he and his wife explored alternative marriages, I’ll complain loud and clear.

Mike, I think you need to have a long talk with your wife. I think the “experimenting” may have been self-exploration. Just because you were the first doesn’t mean her primary attraction is to the male form.
And, it would be a long, tough struggle to create a happy marriage with someone who was more attracted to the other gender.

What do you want? The things you post sound very considerate and kind. It also sounds like your Giver is in full control. Not a good thing at any time, especially not now.

Also, I think you need to explore what your boundaries are. What you won’t live with and what you’re willing to negotiate on.

Hello all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't think I got disinvited... not even sure what that means LoL

And I still feel welcome... the one post was a little rough, but it had very true points to consider. I'm not here to have smoke blown up rumpster, I want the honest opinions of other intelligent adults.

Whaler- thanks for the advice, I am going to look into both parenting classes (emphasis on children of divorce) and self-improvement on many levels. Your concern is appreciated.

Green- you are great! I have seen your posts elsewhere and value your opinion.

In short, I am glad I am here and appreciate the time people put into replies.

As for Green's questions, hmmmm

What do I want? I want my wife back, I want to build a loving relationship again, I want to feel loved and secure in my own home.

If that's not going to happen, I am not sure what I want.

The boudaries thing is starting to come up, like you said, what I am willing to live with and what not. So far I have been all giving, one because I want wife to be happy, and two, I hate to fight with her. But I don't think my doormat-hood can last much longer. So far some little things I have stood up for... she wants to take kids to NY with OW to meet her family, I said no way and got blasted for being controlling LoL

Anyways, waiting on her to respond to my last email about sitting down to talk. I listed some things I wanted included, and tried to make the invitation friendly. It seems we only discuss the issues when she is mad, so that makes it hard to discuss anything. Trying to pre-arrange a time to talk, without interference, so we can make some progress.

One thing I need to know from her is what SHE wants. I only have hints so far, nothing concrete.

So I will update you all when there is news <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks again for listening.

BTW, is this a good area to be in? I have not seen all the site yet, maybe I should post somewhere other than "divorcing/divorced"?

Mike

Mike, this is a good place to be in given the history of your marriage. Emotional Needs and Just Found Out and General Questions II all have excellent posters and get a fair amount of traffic. BUT, there are a lot of people who just experienced Discovery Day (D-Day) and are very raw. Mutually agreed upon sexual experimentation is too close to their pain and they may act out. I don’t have specific people in mind, but I’ve seen it happen.

And there are quite a few posters who have had experience with a sexually addicted spouse. They are likely to quickly label your wife as “sexually addicted” and lecture you about “escalating” usage. And there is value in what they say. But that’s what you’d be letting yourself in for.

I like what you’ve been doing. And you need to be firm in your boundaries. LOL. Just look at me if you want to see what happens to a doormat! And guess what? Doormat-hood doesn’t necessarily end with the marriage!

And I’d like to offer up something Cerri (a wise poster and Marriage coach) said to me: Well, and are you making him happy? Me: Humm. Ahhh. Well. No.

And as for conflict avoidance…. Over here. Here I am! The supreme avoider. Cerri very kindly pointed out to me that there was no way to avoid conflict, only to postpone it and deal with it in horrible ways.

BTW, almost none of my wisdom comes out of myself. My wisest words are only regurgitations of the wise words of others. I take no credit. Heck, if I could only follow these words of wisdom, I wouldn’t need to be here!

PS: Please elaborate on what your marriage would look like, if you can.

Green, thanks for the reply (again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Not sure what you mean by 'what my marriage would look like'?

As for if I am making her happy, that would be an obvious NO. But I want to! There was a time we made each other insanely happy, that's where I want to be. I know I will have to grow alot to get there, and learn how to make her happy, that's what I am trying to do.

She just replied to my email about talking, and said she was very suprised by it and my topics, specifically the working on our marriage topics. She feels it is too late to do that. Replied and said it is never too late for me. At least she seemed agreeable to adult conversation, let's see where that goes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Laters

Mike

Welcome.

I am going to suggest learning all you can about Plan A and Plan B. Also other principles.

Problem is you opened the door and said "go have a good time and let me know when you want to come home...and if you learn something cool with OP, then let me in on it ok?"...

No boundaries w/regard to exclusivity.

She is going to rebel and continue doing same thing if you keep doing the same thing. ...Einstein said "definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the outcome to be different."

I say read His Needs Her Needs and also Life Strategies by Dr. phil. Good chapter in life strategies about relationships...You "teach" people how to treat you. I was also a giver...My xh used to come home from work, dump his briefcase at the door and go upstairs and literally walk out of his clothes and put on shorts and a t shirt. He expected, actually expected me to pick them up and put them in the hamper, launder them, and iron them without any input of energy from him. Dr. Phil would say that you teach them to drop their clothes on the floor. Just an example.

I have learned alot and although divorced, I am using all the information gained to make the dating now much much easier...and it is.

But hey, let's try to save your family ok.

Boundaries go up. You learn MB concepts and APPLY THEM CORRECTLY..Do the plan A, plan B (if only necessary) and learn divorcebusting 180 tips and read the books I told you about.

I wish somebody had prescribed that for me early on and maybe today would be different...thing is..I changed, grew and matured into an even better person through this..was a good wife..Now I think the future is brighter than ever.

And your signature line at the end makes it almost seem "cool" that your w is a [censored]. Geez I dislike Howard Stern mentality...

Mike, my point was that bending over backwards isn’t making her any happy with you either! So maybe, you shouldn’t bend over backwards to make her happy.

Okay, so you’re going to have this meeting. Would you like to post the topics here, and practice on us so that we can eliminate potential lovebusters? And make sure your Giver isn’t totally in control? We’re often good at helping people edit out LBs. Avoiding LBs is not the same thing as being a doormat, btw.

Peachy, I agree on Plan A and Plan B, but I also believe Mike and his wife need to understand her sexual needs. And the scary thing is, she may not know herself. Or she may be in denial of her sexuality.

If sexual fulfillment is one of her top 10 ENs and she’s attracted to women rather than to men, and gets the “fulfillment” from another woman, Mike’s in a really tough spot.

I’d also say that this time with OW is different. From what Mike posted, while his wife practiced radical honesty, he didn’t enthusiastically agree with her having an affair with this woman.

Without getting graphic, here’s the picture I got of Mike’s “Open Marriage Period.” Mike, correct me when I go wrong. Mike and his wife had an enthusiastic agreement that she could experience other men. Probably, Mike, being young, thought it only fair if he had had other sexual experience and she hadn’t. Mike may also have been a little bit afraid that if he said no, she’d leave. Mike’s W wanted to explore her sexuality. I’d bet money on it that she was confused about what she desired and thought experience with other men would help.

Mike’s wife practiced radical honesty with Mike, and her extra-marital experience became “their” experience as Mike vicariously enjoyed the thrill of illicit, purely physical sexual expression. I can see this happening, especially if she didn’t have many encounters with the same person.

Still confused, she expressed a desire to be with other women. (Mike, did you two watch porn movies together?) Maybe she had always been attracted to women. So, they agree. And it goes much like before. And after a time Mike’s Wife admits that she’s more drawn to women.

Then, (without discussion apparently) they settle down into mid-class monogamy. And I suspect that radical honesty suddenly went by the wayside.

This OW came along, and Mike’s wife became involved but never asked his permission and this OW was a relationship in and of itself. It wasn’t something that they essentially did together. And it came to supplant his relationship.

Wow, great posts!

Where to start?

First, the sig line is desperate sarcasm, a joke at myself, a reply to the response I have gotten several times of "if you wife left you for another woman, what is wrong with you?"

Anyways, I don't think its cool. I feel just the same as I would if it was OM, except I have less of the "what do they have that I don't" feeling. I know what she has that I dont <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Gamble, you are an excellent listenier and nailed many items in your post. Yes, being young and having had a couple other relationships, I thought she needed to explore to be happy. Now I agree with you, she was just confused in general and finally found out why when she discovered women.

Well we had the 'talk'. Actually, I did more talking and questioning that she did.

First topic... how can we save our marriage? What steps are you (she) willing to take with me to get better?

Answer... can't save a dead horse, will do nothing towards 'us' because she is now convinced that men are not what she needs. She said it was a long time coming, but without a doubt she has no desire for men. Without that, even disregarding all other issues, what type of marriage could we have?

I have to agree on that one. Horse is dead. Poor horse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Next topic was how to move into seperation. Discussed me actually getting some money, and she agreed. Must have caught her off gaurd that time LoL, but I am setting up an allotment for 'me' money. Luckily, I have a seperate residence for free (go Navy). Think what I get is about 8% of our pay, but its a start.

She is convinced I will turn out like 'every other' seperating husband and eventually cut her off to minimum child/spousal support. Tried to explain that I could not do that to my children, they and thier quality of life is my highest priority.

Anyways, I guess I am on the right board for sure. We are going to get seperated, then divorced eventually. That is still sinking in.

Thanks again for the replies, you faceless people are wonderful!

Have a great nite, I will keep you informed.

Green, go get certified, you are getting too good at this to be free anymore LoL

Oh... missed some q's... no, we didn't watch porn, and actually, the thought of women together freaked her out for the first 5 years we were married.

As far as this OW, I think her feelings were terribly strong for her before she told me, but she did tell me before she began the PA. Although I was still getting the "I love you but" line then, which is now gone. Now it's just "I can't make myself love you", which is true. Can't make myself stop loving her either DANGIT!

Plan A/B, for what I have seen, no joy here. As I understand it, Plan A is to have her leave OW. Won't happen, already been told it won't happen, would rather lose everything (but the kids) than let that happen. So Plan B, which I think was stop all contact between me and her? can't do that, two young kids in the middle that we have to both see. Not to mention I just can't be that tough.

Okay, think I am caught up now. Niters!

Mike

I know a lot of people here would disagree with me, Mike, but I don’t think Plan A or Plan B will work when the person is truly oriented to a gender different from your own.

I know it must hurt you a lot, but I think you’re making a sanity saving choice.

I’d also like to add one more conversation that you and your STBX need to have. And that is to come to a consensus on how, what, when, where, and how much the children will be exposed to her lifestyle and sexual orientation. Also, getting counseling for the children. (Does the base offer anything?)

And you may want to seek out some counseling too. There are lots of military personnel and military spouses on the Emotional Needs board. They know of tons of resources available to you and your children.

Thanks for the compliment about being a good listener. But no way do I want the responsibility of being paid for my opinion. Heck, I’m still paying someone to teach me how to stand up to my STBX. LOL.

Good luck.

I thnk Green is on the money, but I will expand a little beyond that, and a little more of what I said earlier in this thread.

My current ideas with my wife is that we are failing to opitmally accmmodate each other ideas, and differences in ideas. My wife continues to backload (criticize), rather than frontload (plan).

You say that your wife is a great mom, but you have recounted incidents where your wife was mean to you in front of the children. That is undercutting, and a failure to accommodate ideas and backloading instead of frontloading.

I suggest that you are not providing sufficiently explicit construtive coaching for your wife.

You have not gotten yourself sufficiently up to speed on good parenting to be able to coach your wife, and let her know that you are a great father, and why.

You do not mention any parenting books, websites or courses that you are studying. I think that the OW is out ahead of you in leadership of your wife. I think you are throwing up your hands, and giving up the leadership to OW.

Getting out ahead is also understanting how people are influenced, how others exrercise excessive inluence, and how to coach those who are overly susceptible to being influenced. Basically I use a role play with my wife. "Now pretent person X is over ther. Have you got X over there? Now tell person X that your thoughts and beliefs are A. B and C. Now tell person X, that their ideas of D E and F, conflict with A, B and C, and that you are going along with their ideas of H, I and J, and suggest accommadating compromises on A, B, C, D, E, and F."

My wife is overly susceptible to being influenced by others. My wife comes home every cuople of weeks with some new ideas, and then I have to coach her back to incorporating those ideas into the realities of our household.

You have a bargaining chip, in divorce and money. Your wife realizes that once you fall into the clutches of another woman, that she and her kids are most likely looking at minimal contributions.

You are being accommodating to your wife's spending time with OW. If your wife were to work out sufficient limited expressions of affection with you, then the marriage could be extended, at least until you get transferred, and then she would have to make a decision. Until then, there is no reason for a decision.

Giving rejecting vibrations to the children's father in front of the kids is not good parenting.

What have you proposed to your wife as compromises? I have challenged my wife that I want to come up with better accommodations of each other's ideas. For specific ideas on workable compromises for your situation, you might visit sexualforums.com, or curezone.com. I think that you are correctly stating your feelings for your family and kids now, but you have not been divorced for a while, and developed a relationship with another woman. Your wife recognizes the reality of planning. you can use that as a bargaining chip, but I think you do not have enough mustard to negotiate. You have growing room to get further ahead of your wife and OW on good Parenting and handling Oppositional people. The investment in getting your self further up to speed in parenting, oppositional people, and coercive people should be a direct benefit to your children and to yourself. You have not posted any options for growth that your friends or acquaintances have found helpful, or that you have found by calling around. Finding options is a first step. Then evaluating your choice, schedule and cost is a second step. Perhaps 3rd base is attending classes or studying parenting concepts; and getting Home is applying the principles you studied.

I suspect that you are hurting more than you are communicating here, and I suspect that you are not super-human, which means that you are letting your hurt find expression in ways that are not the most constructive possible. Many counselling and self-help groups and courses can help you with indirect expressions of hurt. I suggest that you consider your hurt feelings as a problem also needing addressing, because it is hard to negoitate if you are unintentionally, but unconsciously dropping mini-love-busters every now and then.

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Wow Whaler, that was a lot to digest! I think I will be re-reading that one for awhile.

As for what/when/ etc telling the kids... we have not even told them we are ES (my personal acronym, emotionally seperated) but that was a topic in our 'conversation'. I don't think I got a straight answer (no pun intended) for that one.

My plan is to take parenting classes offered by the Family Services here on base, both age appropriate for my kids and also for kids going thru divorce. Just to stay ahead of the situation.

I also found out I can get personal counseling there, which I will make an appt to get started.

For the most part, I am a survivor, I will get thru this, but the counseling may help me get thru it quicker and grow better from the situation.

I encourage wife to do the same, but got the same answer as for any type of counseling I ever suggested, which is a simple NO. No way. Not sure what her issues with counseling in general are, but she has always hated the idea for anything. Hopefully she will read some books and use her resources in friends and at work.

She did say that she will schedule the kids for counseling at school so that they can go as soon as we tell them, whenever that may be.

Anyways, thanks for the replies, hope you all are having a good day!

Tonite is my 'away' nite from the house... part of the 'talk' we had was that I did not want to be the one alone at home every nite (while she is out with OW). Now I have tues, thurs and saturday nites (after kids go to bed) for me.

What the heck will I do? LoL

Laters

Mike

Well, Mike, you've only got three nights and you've scheduled 2 parenting classes and a individual counselor. I can't believe you'll have tons of empty time.

I think you're doing a great job with this. You're being very pro-active and that's great. And you're not a defeatist. YOu will survive and thrive.

I personally filled my "free" time with yoga classes and later, fixing up the house.

And I go to bars, restaurants, and coffee shops armed with a book or work when I feel like I need adult humans.

It's hard at first when you don't know a lot of single or divorced people to do stuff with.

And just to appease the MB gods, goddesses and the demi-gods, I'm not suggesting dating. Just men friends to go to a game with, see a movie or have a beer.

Although being on base should help with that.

On an entirely different note:

My family was almost all Navy. Only one renegade Army guy. And I have very fond memories of midshipmen in summer whites at Annapolis. And I always route for Navy in the Army Navy game.

(Sorry all of you other military veterns and actives on this board. I still appreciate all your service, but you know how it is.)

<small>[ March 04, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]</small>

I identify with your situation, because my wife has taken an overly time consuming interest in her church. My wife has taken on a superior attitude, as that since I am not a member of her church clique, that she has better answers than I do.

Your wife may not be spending excessive time at church, but your wife has been spending excessive time in another endeavor, and taken the attitude that she is superior to you.

I have suggested two models. One is that your wife is excessively influenced by another individual, or more than one.

The other model is that your wife has an oppositional personality. Right now, your wife has decided to take out her oposition on you.

In addition to being subject to being easily influenced by others, my wife is also oppostional.

One key to dealing with an oppostional person, is to talk to them about planning for the uppcoming days, or future. Your success in getting three nights out, is based on discussions focused on the future. Anything that irritated you about the past, or the present, then, should be put in terms of planning for upcoming days.

The goal, I suggest, is to have your wife avoid undercutting you to the kids. This is a monster goal. So rather than saying, "By the way, you undercut me on such a day;" Rather, you have to figure what type of circumstance in which you got cut down, and then say, let's discuss Subject A, so we can better coordinate on Subject A in front of the kids.

I want my son to put his extra golf carts in storage, while he should be focussing on college courses. My son wants to sell custom golf carts, and has several carts in his room and around the house. My wife is opposed to the idea of a storage locker for the kid.

My wife is opposed to counseling. I think that is simply because she is an oppostional person.

I don't really see that I am doing so much beter than you. I have the touching, but the undercutting and lack of trust hurts me.

I am not sure how to deal with my wife's superior attitude, although when I come home latger than usual, that seems to communicate somethign to her.

Poast back any superiority you are able to gain with parenting info.