Both your wife and the other man are evil. If you are calling them evil. This is your definition of evil. According to your definition, both are evil.

So your wife is evil. In fact I will say that your wife is probably MORE evil than the other man because she did not care about you or "her own children" and chose to have sex with another man and live with him instead of you.

But you can't focus your day on this fact.

The kids need you to be positive and loving toward them and your energies should be pointed in that direction, not at the OM.

The OM, the one Chris suggests may not be that bad after all, is a horrible, horrible, horrible person for being involved with her.
I never suggested he was not a horrible person.
I wrote, “They have no experience with him and can ONLY go by what you say, even if it was 100% wrong.”
My point is that you (and your wife) as their parents are who look up to. In the eyes of children, parents are perfect. They give them everything they need.
Now your wife is gone. Dad (and Mom) made an implied promise to them that their little world would be perfect. Now it’s not because you and your wife lied to them about keeping their little world perfect.

To me, it sounds like all you are doing is you are trashing (an understatement) this guy to your kids.

I truly hate the fact that you believe I am hurting my children.
They shouldn’t have to worry that when they get home from school dad’s gonna start, “Kids, the om is EVIL. He is the devil’s child!” and on and on.

What IS being told is that adultery is WRONG. It is the adultery that is being attacked. It is the behavior.
Below is not attacking the behavior. It is attacking the person directly.

From an earlier post, "Mommy moved out to be with a horrible, horrible man who can care less about you or me. He's an evil man. In fact, he hates your father (I have a restraining order on him remember?)

The man was sent straight from the devil and unfortunately Mommy fell for him..."

Also, from an earlier post in this thread.
When they asked why mommy moved away I gently explained to them that another man is friends with your mom and he has convinced her that it is best for her to leave.
I agree that this is the right way to approach it. This is the way you should be speaking with them about it.

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Chris,

You are clear minded guy with some great points in your above posts. The one I don't understand is where you think it' okay to tell the kids that their mom left because some guy told her to. You see I don't think that anyone leaves a marriage except on their OWN accord. While this guy might have asked her to leave her marriage, make no mistake, she made the decision to leave. Also, I think explaining anything about the mom's BF is not acceptable. The kids only need to know certain things, for their own welfare. Those would be:

* Mom and Dad both love you very much and always will.

* Mom and Dad don't get agree on some things and because of that mom/dad will be living somewhere else, but you can always call them. They are still you parent and there for you.

* Parents divorce each other, but never the children.

* Any information in how their day to day routine will change such as (mommy used to take you to school, but now you have to take the school bus because daddy has to be at work).

That's about it as for what kids really need to be involved with as the ages they are.

Feedback please.

Solon:

You are indeed a changed man. Changed for the bitter, I'm afraid. Your new moniker isn't even accurate: You are very much alive, fueled by anger, bitterness, and hate. Like one of those creatures in a Star Trek episode that thrives on strong emotions. Only the people here are like Scotty getting on the horn and yelling "Solon, I'm trying 2 help you save your marriage, but it's BUCKLING! It's BREAKING UP!"

Boy, I wish real life could be made this funny, but it can't. I hate repeating myself, but it's true: You are ending your M all by yourself (because your W is avoiding making ANY decision, remember? - like, why would she have an abortion if she's committed 2 the OM?). You are ending it because you are burning all the possible bridges that your WW might be able 2 someday find her way home on.

It's all in your atti2de. Sure, it's hard 2 keep being the "good guy" when you're being wronged like this, or so it might seem. But is it ever going 2 be any less necessary? ...and being the good guy, in my book, does not mean being the holier-than-WW-and-OM guy. No, it means Solon gets 2 be the better man, not the bitter man, because anything less is giving up.

I hope we see another transformation in you soon.

-2long

The one I don't understand is where you think it' okay to tell the kids that their mom left because some guy told her to.
You are correct. It is his”tone” in the post which is okay.
Yes it was her choice to leave and they should know that.

Also, I think explaining anything about the mom's BF is not acceptable.
So he shouldn’t tell the kid she ran off to live with this guy?
I believe they should know in that it reinforces the fact that THEY were not why she left.

* Mom and Dad both love you very much and always will.

* Mom and Dad don't get agree on some things and because of that mom/dad will be living somewhere else, but you can always call them. They are still you parent and there for you.

* Parents divorce each other, but never the children.
I’m not gonna speak for my ex and say that she loves them and will always be there for them.
Just as we should not tell the ws what they are thinking (I know you’re confused and upset is NOT something you tell your spouse) we should not tell our kids what the ws is thinking “knows”.

Kids NEED to know why one parent is not around. What they are told is age appropriate of course. To simply say, “we didn’t get along anymore” is gonna teach them it’s okay to leave when you don’t get along.
By telling them she ran of with someone and teaching them it is not the way to handle problems will give them the strength to handle their own problems in a more correct fashion.
And it's not that WE didn't get along, it's that SHE didn't want to get along.

As Bill Gannon (Dragnet) used to say, "just the facts ma'am, just the facts."
He never asked them to tell the truth because everyone's "truth" is different.

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Yeah, I guess it's just one of those things the one on the outside can never truly understand. The more I read the more I see how far you all are from what is going on. It's frustrating, but hey, what can you do? Life really goes on.

The anger and bitterness and hate you all speak of...it's really not that deep. A year ago? Definitely, but not now. What you feel when you read from me is passion. I am a very passionate person. And you would feel this no matter what you read or hear from me. Those who know me know this. But this is just a matter of you all misreading me, misunderstanding me, not taking the time to truly understand what I've said, and flat out just not believing anything I said.

All I can say that I have not said already (and I said some deep stuff! It's a shame it was missed, but that's cool) is go out and read, read, read. You will find that what I am saying is not as "strange" as you think and that in fact, some of the most popular experts advise along the same lines (where do you think I got this from?). Dr. James Dobson has some really good books on this. Dr. Clarke is another (if you think what I am doing is hurting the children, you will pass out speaking or reading from him). Dr. Paul Anderson. There is one good book "Rising Above Anger" that is really helpful in dealing with people who hurt you (and your children). Study children, your own children. Get in tune with yourself and them. Do everything in love. If you really want to have a better understanding, email me and I can give you the email addresses of some powerful, powerful counselors/theologians who can advise you and guide you. But you all don't need it. It sounds like you all are content with the paths you have chosen. But definitely read these books.

And like I said, I wish you all the best in all of this. I think we all are affected by adultery in some form or fashion, which is why we are here. I have learned SO much in this past year (my life and my children's lives, I'm tempted to say have been blessed, no, they have been blessed in all of this) and I truly am not bitter or foster hate in my heart towards any person, other than the devil that is. Even though I was frustrated by some of your comments to be honest; really frustrated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . But I still love you guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You all are all okay by me, even you Kayla and Chris <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And WMWB, I'll be seeing you soon.

So take care of yourselves and your children. If you are waiting on your wayward spouse I hope and pray that they come back to you and that your marriages work for the best. I do pray your children and I hope that they recover as well as you all recover. I also hope they learn to hate the behaviors that hurt and maim so that they will be less inclined to engage in these same behaviors.

Take care

some of the most popular experts advise along the same lines (where do you think I got this from?). Dr. James Dobson has some really good books on this. Dr. Clarke is another (if you think what I am doing is hurting the children, you will pass out speaking or reading from him). Dr. Paul Anderson. There is one good book "Rising Above Anger"
Can you be specific about which books?
I'd be interested in reading where it says, it's okay to tell young children that an op is "sent from the devil and is EVIL!!!!" (or even anything along those lines)

Okay, I just read your posts more thoroughly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I try not to do that first because then I take too much time replying on every single thing.

Feminine, you can call me and talk to me in person if you like 240-423-9833. I have no problem with that.

Secondly, based on what everyone said, it seems as though you all think I am this raging, angry guy, foaming at the mouth and every chance I get I tell my children about their mother and the other man, "Grrrll, their evil, their Satan, their going to die?? Grrrrll!" Um...no.

Before my wife moved away and before she was involved with this man, our family had morning and evening devotion, every day (wow! would have never thought it huh?). This was a time of family bonding and spiritual bonding. We still do this except without her. So during this time, they feel comfortable enough to ask questions about what is going on. We read stories from the Bible and apply it to our lives today. The other day my son asked a good question about his mother. He said that he thought that when you turn away from doing right your life becomes miserable. I told him, "yes, this is true". He asked, "well, is mommy's life miserable, she's seems to be having a good time?" I asked him what happened to the prodigal son, we went over the story and he walked away knowing that your life may not instantly turn miserable, but the end thereof...yada yada yada. (as adults we know that 97% of relationships that start as affairs end, we know alot of other grown up stuff, but...you get the idea.) I say all of this to let you all know that these explainings of their mother's behavior is taken place at certain times, designated times. It's a forum, if you will, where we pray, sing, read and then discuss what is going in our lives. Anger is hardly a part of this discussion (it's hard to pray and be angry at the same time). Outside of this is mainly me drilling them on cleaning up their rooms and doing homework and practicing piano:) Now if you want to get on me for that, you can because I don't play when it comes to chores.

But rest assured, my concerned friends, that they are not seeing an angry dad. They love their mother but hate what she is doing. I further described this not long ago by using my daughter's anger towards her brother teasing her. She was crying and stomping and carrying on so I calmly asked her, "Athena, are you mad?". She said with tears in her eyes, "Yes! He's always teasing me!...Stop it, Adonis!!!"

I smiled at her and said, "But he loves you...and you love him. Right? You just hate him teasing you, huh?" She said, "Yes, that's why I am not going to share with him anymore...Stop it!!". I smiled at her and then ran up to him and said, "Adonis! Boy, stop teasing your sister before I tie you up and throw you in the dumpster". They both laughed and that was that.

Later that night, they mentioned the behavior thing in regards to their mother.

So no, you all have the wrong picture of me, us and the situation. I tell them about the other man, their mother, me when the ask, and thank God they feel comfortable enough to ask. I cannot accurately describe how beautiful things are in all of this. Just trust me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> they are in good hands. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

our family had morning and evening devotion, every day (wow! would have never thought it huh?)
From your posts, I would never have guessed that happening, or if it did, it was more along the lines of the movie, "Carrie" with her Mom bible thumping her, fire & brimstone, etc.

Secondly, based on what everyone said, it seems as though you all think I am this raging, angry guy, foaming at the mouth and every chance I get I tell my children about their mother and the other man, "Grrrll, their evil, their Satan, their going to die?? Grrrrll!"
The ONLY thing we can use to comment on is what is posted by you.

Chris is a funny guy...in a sick kind of way. But nonetheless, it's ONLY from his posts that I get this.

The books are Tough Love and "I Don't Love You Anymore". I'll posts direct quotes on Monday. I'll also posts direct quotes from a book done on a, I think 20 year study, of the effects of divorce on children. I'm sure you all have read or heard of it.

You all have a good weekend!

But nonetheless, it's ONLY from his posts that I get this.
I hope it's ONLY from my posts you get anything from me cause otherwise that would be considered stalking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll posts direct quotes on Monday.
That'll be great. I'll look at the books too.
Remember, you're looking for stuff which says it's good/okay to tell children that om/ow are evil and sent by the devil, stuff like this.
We aren;t looking for stuff that says it's okay to tell them what is going on. We all agree (most of us) that the children should knwo what is going on.

I think 20 year study, of the effects of divorce on children.
Do you mean, "Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, The: 25 Year Landmark Study by Judith S. Wallerstein"?
Good book. Can't say I read anything about it being a good thing about telling children the op is scum, etc. In fact, I believe it talks about the negative effects on children of doing this.

Dead,

Please take your phone off your post. It isn't wise to leave it there. There are all kinds of nuts in this world and your phone can be used to get your address. Some loony might come take your kids!

Solon (it's okay 2 call you that, isn't it?):

"So no, you all have the wrong picture of me, us and the situation. "

Ah, but YOU were the artist, and it was YOUR paint we were looking at!

-ol' 2long

<small>[ March 13, 2004, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Feminine, it's okay. No one can find me by that number. But thanks for looking out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2long, even if I did paint an accurate picture those looking will all have different opinions. It's all in the angle from which you look.

Chris...ah, Chris. Read the book again. It speaks of the effects of divorce on chilren, not soley as children but years afterwards into adulthood.

I don't want people to get the wrong idea here. Don't get caught up in what or how I raise my children. If you have children and if your spouse is involved in an affair, please, in anyway you can make it clear to your children that this behavior is wrong.

Yes, the children are confused, but they do not have to be left in the dark. In fact, they do not have to be confused at all. Confused children only lead to confused adults and unfortunately, today, we have many confused adults running around. They don't know the difference between right and wrong. They do and try anything not even knowing what they are doing. They are confused. As parents we have a responsibility to teach our children the difference between what is right (acceptable) and what is wrong (unacceptable). This is our responsibility. If you are involved in this situation, use it to teach your children the difference, not compromising or excusing or minimizing.


I used to work at Chestnut Lodge in Rockville, MD. It was a well known psychiatric ward (these were the days in undergrad when I was a psych. major applying to med. school to become child psychiatrist). I worked on the adolescent unit and we had many teens and preteens who were involved in distructive behavior; drug and alcohol abuse, sexual behavior, self abuse, suicidal, etc. etc. I remember one day in a group session the therapist asked what their parents thought of their behavior. All the children, 100% of them gave similar answers, "My mom tells me its wrong, but she goes out and does the same thing...yeah, my dad says don't smoke weed, but I know he and his friends do it in the garage...they say don't do it, but they know I am doing it and it really doesn't seem to bother them". Confused? Definitely. But where is this confusion coming from? It is coming from the parents! The parents are not making it CLEAR to these children what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Does your children REALLY know that it is wrong to for daddy to have a girlfriend? How do they react when they are around their parents girlfriend? Do they know how despictable it really is?

The truth must be told to our children, in love, or else we will be held accountable.

We say that our ws are not themselves. They are "abducted by aliens". Do we really believe that ourselves? One person questioned, "is the op really evil?" Oh, my. Are we ourselves confused? I will sooner rob a bank, pay for sex, even murder someone before I involve myself with a married woman with children, assisting in destroying a man, his children, their children's children and an extended family. Evil? And does the children know how evil or wrong this behavior is? Come on, people. You are experiencing it. Someone said that this is between the two parents and the children should be left out of it. Our families are not like this. We don't have subunits. Our families consists of Mommy, Daddy, Jr., little Sue, everyone is part of the family. And what one person does in this family effects the entire family. Our children ARE a part of it. You can do nothing that will not affect yoru wife and your children. They hurt as you hurt. How can you leave them out of it?

We are confused because we don't understand how our spouses can act like this, but really, it is not that confusing at all. It is hard to accept, but we know who's behind it all. We should know where this behavior is coming from and we have a responsibility to tell our children. Do your children really know it is wrong to have another man with his mom? Or will they be like the children in the psych ward that says, "Yeah, I guess its wrong but my parents seem to be okay with it so it must not be all that bad."

We have a responsibility to tell the truth to them. I read this the other day, "Truth can be painful to hear, but is necessary to personal growth and spiritual growth. Only those who are committed to truth, as manifested in obedience to the truth they already know, will receive this...". Dr. Clarke wrote in his book, "gather your children and tell them...tell them their father has continued to sin...tell them their father has had an affair. Don't go into detail, but make it clear that Dad has/had an adulterous relationship with another woman and that's what all these problems are about...I recommend telling all your children five and up. For younger children, put it in terms they can grasp..."

Not telling your children is doing them a severe injustice and putting yourself at risk for negligence. We all have to give an account for what we do and what we don't do.

I posted several months ago about how distraught I was that my wife would take the kids and I would have to fight and yada, yada, yada. By me telling them the truth, the pure unadulterated truth, I find myself not fighting at all. They know what she is doing and they know it is terribly wrong. And what's best, they have no problem telling her. I don't have to worry about them being around the OM because, thanks to truth, they shine the truth on her and the guilt, like Harley says, pushes her away...even from them! She has not seen them in going on three weeks (except one day) and we are all fine with that. I don't tell her she cannot see them. They don't cry and pine for her. She refuses to spend time around them because she's afraid of hearing the truth from her own children, "Mommy, you know you are not supposed to have a boyfriend...Are you still seeing him?" Can't you see? Remove the veil from your children. They know their mother loves them, but they also know she is not in a place where she should be. And someone may say, "it is horrible that she is not spending time with her children...they need their mother, etc. etc." Yes, they do need her, but they need her in her right mind or else her influence on them will have a negative effect. I am so glad I am not the one responsible for her not seeing them. It is of her own will and its because she knows she cannot bamboozle the children into believing that her being with another man is okay or acceptable.

There are times when we have to stand up, put the personal hurt and pain away (even though some of you viewed what I am doing as being spurned from hate and pain) and call what's wrong, wrong. God did just that. He told a nine year old (most scholars believe Samuel was nine at the time) that the person who was a father to him would have to answer for his unacceptable behavior. He told him what he did and that his "father" would die because of it. Then, He left it up to him to go deliver this message! Most of you here would have cringed and said, "Oh, no! You are hurting the child! How is he supposed to act knowing this". Truth hurts, but it is necessary for growth. Truth and it consequences diffuses confusion, it clears things up and makes the path easier to walk.

Obviously, some of you do not think that adultery is really that bad at all. It's bad, yeah, but on the grand scale of things it really is not that bad. It is not as bad as say, murder or stealing or lying. But the thing about adultery is it comprises of all of these. And where do these things come from? Who is the originator of all of this? And you say telling your children where this is coming from is "hurting them?" I say not telling them is hurting them and setting them up. James Dobson in his book has some quotes from elementary children who were asked to right down things they wish for. Their responses were amazing. "That mommy didn't have a boyfriend...that I did not have three dads and three moms..." so forth and so on. Do our children really know what is going on?

I have posted what is going on with my children. Again, they are 4 and 8 and they are doing well, well enough to where a therapist did not feel it necessary to continue meeting them. They speak to their mother almost everyday, but have not seen her in some time (her choice), and they are okay. This weekend my 4 year old daughter had a dress up/sleep over party and 5 of her little friends came over and they had a good time (wore me out!). My son had a good time interferring. If one of you were to sit down with them and converse with them they will tell you exactly, with amazing clarity, where their mother is and what is going on. They have no desire to meet the other man and they know why he is involved with their mother. They pray that she will turn from this and back to God. Confused? Not all. They are dead on point. I hope that you all may bring your children to the point where they know what is right and what is wrong. It will benefit the entire family, if you spouse chooses to come home or if they choose not to come home.

So where are all the "quotes" from the books which recommend children should be told how horrible the op is?
You wrote a bunch of stuff and seem to think we disagree wtih you on everything. We disagree on one point only and that is HOW the children should be told.

Chris...ah, Chris. Read the book again. It speaks of the effects of divorce on chilren, not soley as children but years afterwards into adulthood.
It seems you do not have a clue as to what we are suggesting to you.
I understand divorce has a big affect on children.
The best way a parent can minimize the affect on the children is keep them out of the drama between the parents.
Yes, they should know what went on and why a divorce is happening.
To tell them the om is sent by the devil, is wrong.
Nowhere in the books you listed, does it even hint that the betrayed spouse should say the things you suggest. Almost every book says to NOT say these things.

If you have children and if your spouse is involved in an affair, please, in anyway you can make it clear to your children that this behavior is wrong.
Yes, we all agreed with this a long time ago.

Yes, the children are confused, but they do not have to be left in the dark. In fact, they do not have to be confused at all.
Agreed (as before). They should know what is going on.

Think of it this way.
If they get a splinter you are saying their arm should be cut off with a rusty saw and acid poured on it to disinfect.
We are saying to use tweezers and peroxide with a band-aid.

"My mom tells me its wrong, but she goes out and does the same thing...yeah, my dad says don't smoke weed, but I know he and his friends do it in the garage...they say don't do it, but they know I am doing it and it really doesn't seem to bother them". Confused? Definitely. But where is this confusion coming from? It is coming from the parents! The parents are not making it CLEAR to these children what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.
It’s up to the betrayed parent to make it clear.

Does your children REALLY know that it is wrong to for daddy to have a girlfriend?
Absolutely.

How do they react when they are around their parents girlfriend?
The children should not be around the girlfriend at anytime.

The truth must be told to our children, in love, or else we will be held accountable.
Yeah, we agree. Most of us suggested this.

We are confused because we don't understand how our spouses can act like this, but really, it is not that confusing at all.[/n]
Who is confused?

[b]Obviously, some of you do not think that adultery is really that bad at all.
?? Where did you come up with that? Everyone here has said that.

James Dobson in his book has some quotes from elementary children who were asked to right down things they wish for
But he does not even hint that the children should be told that the op is “evil”.

I have posted what is going on with my children. Again, they are 4 and 8 and they are doing well, well enough to where a therapist did not feel it necessary to continue meeting them.
Yeah, but as you wrote, “It speaks of the effects of divorce on chilren, not soley as children but years afterwards into adulthood”.

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Chris, it all went over your head. It is just a good thing you don't have children (at least I don't think you do).

All of these books suggest telling the children the source of where this behavior stems. Call Focus on the Family and ask to speak to Dr. Dobson directly. The research on the effects of divorce in the later years stems from the confusion they face during the childhood years.

The quotes are coming. I am extremely busy these days working but I will get to it.

Chris, it all went over your head.
Why? It's pretty simple.
It is just a good thing you don't have children
Why would that be a good thing?

All of these books suggest telling the children the source of where this behavior stems.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
So why do you insist on slamming the om and not his behavior?

Call Focus on the Family and ask to speak to Dr. Dobson directly.
He's just up the road from me actually. But I don't need to have him interpret his book. It's very simple and neds no explanation.

The research on the effects of divorce in the later years stems from the confusion they face during the childhood years.
Agreed. We are telling you that you should NOT confuse them. Tell them the facts.

We can go back and forth ad nauseum but...

You use fire & brimstone to scare the crap out of your kids.
Dobson and most others agree this is NOT the way to handle it.
But somehow, you read their books differently.

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

no, my kids are not scared crapless of OM. The truth relieves them of that. Even though they know who's behind this man's behavior they also know who is in charge and who's looking out for them. So no, they are not afraid of him.

Why are you so against calling the om evil? Is it that you feel that he/she really is not evil and they may actually be good? Or is it you are just opposed to calling them evil to children, kind of like Bush calling the terrorist "evil" to the children? I'm inclined to believe the former. I am inclined to believe you think the guy/gal may not be evil at all, they just happened to innocently involve themselves with a married person with children and just happened to continue in it after speaking with the married partner. They just happened to get a restraining order on the husband of the wife their involved with. Bad, yeah, but evil, no. Leave evil for...for...who is evil to you? Bin Laden? Sadam? Tell me, according to you, does the consistent unchanging destructive behavior of a person make them evil or no?

Is it that you feel that he/she really is not evil and they may actually be good?
No.

Or is it you are just opposed to calling them evil to children, kind of like Bush calling the terrorist "evil" to the children? I'm inclined to believe the former.
Why would you be inclined to believe that? I never suggested he wasn't.

Sorry we weren't able to converse on the same subject.


Dr. Clarke is another (if you think what I am doing is hurting the children, you will pass out speaking or reading from him)
Which Dr. Clarke? Would you give a full name and a book written by Dr Clarke?

Dr. Paul Anderson. There is one good book "Rising Above Anger"
Did Paul Anderson write "Rising Above Anger"?
I can't locate that book by Paul Anderson anywhere. Who wrote "Rising Above Anger"?
What did Paul Anderson write?

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

dtia:

While this debate over the subtle and not-so-subtle differences are between everyone's thoughts about telling small children about As is interesting, it's not really the point here, is it?

I sense that you are angrier than you are willing 2 admit, because of the depth of hatred you harbor for the OM and even the WW.

Are you in plan B? If not, why not?

Did you give your W a plan B letter? If not, why not?

If it truly makes you feel better 2 label the OM as evil, you really have 2 ask yourself why that is? Don't worry, I'm not bashing you. I've hated Rat Meat from time 2 time for 26 months for having an A with my FWW. We're human. But it isn't "godly" 2 label the OM "evil." It's "holier-than-thou", but it isn't "Christ-like." More importantly, it isn't USEFUL. Useful 2 your personal recovery. Useful 2 winning your WW back.

The OM just MAY be "right" for your WW, you know. Because 3% of M's born of affairs DO survive past 5 years. Sure, it's a long shot, but what if that's the outcome of your particular sitch? How do you want your kids 2 interact with their mom in, say, 20 years? Yeah, they might decide not 2 have anything 2 do with her, but they might not.

I'm not "giving the OM the benefit of the doubt" 2 make you view him as a great guy that's just made a li'l mistake or 2. I'm thinking out loud, trying 2 get you 2 think of how you might, say, subliminally contribute 2 the OM's OWN personal growth 2 the realization that what he's doing with your W is wrong for HIM (so he'll be just a bit more inclined 2 end it from his side, perhaps). I'm not putting this well. What I'm after here is something along the lines of the pitch 2 the OP that the BS makes in a standard Harley plan B letter, that simply states that you love your WS and want them 2 re2rn 2 their M. If you were 2 modify that with "I think you're a pitiful, evil twit", what effect do you think that would have on the OM? Would he be inclined 2 end his involvement with your W because you implored his "good conscience" with your plea, or would he be inclined 2 prolong it 2 spite you?

And what about your W? Would she suddenly snap out of the fog, come running 2 you and profess her undying love, apologizing profusely for the evil she's perpetrated on you and the kids? Or would she come 2 the OM's defense and get further embroiled in her A?

My point is that there's a lot more involved here than simply deciding whether 2 be honest with your children or not (giving them YOUR version of the truth, after all). We all have influence on those around us - good and bad - for the things we do, whether we intend 2 or not.

-ol' 2long.