STBX is doing some things I'm not sure how to handle. It's been 7 months now, still nothing from her attorney about getting divorced, although last week was another "by the end of the week".

So, given that it is "anytime now", not tyring to kick the nest. I can wait...no biggie.

Could use some advice...how do I handle these things?

1. STBX is hitting the kids in an unacceptable way in pure anger. She struck my 8 year in the side a week ago, apparently in such a way as to knock the wind out of my 8 year old. My daughter said it was like "when I fall off the monkey bars and land on my back". STBX is still having major anger problems...taking things out on the kids...etc. The kdis say it is the same as before, but I am not there now to stop her, so she just keeps going.

What do I do? I don't think they are really in any physcical danger, but certainly emotional, and possibly physical.

2. STBX started screaming and yelling at me becuase I didn't answer the cell phone. I left it in the truck, never heard it ring, and never answered the phone. Apparently it is believed that I am supposed to be at her "beck and call" at all times??? Obviously this is not the case. But she doesn't seem to agree.

How do I deal with this?

3. STBX is apparently using the kids to spy on me. She has given them the idea that daddy might have a girlfriend apparently by suggesting I might be out with someone, etc. So now the kids are asking me such questions. There is no girlfriend. Most certainly this is NONE of STBX's business anyways....and most certainly it is COMPLETELY inappropriate for her to even conjure such a thought in their minds. When I do date, I will never let the kids know anyways, unless it ever becomes a serious relationship where they might be affected. So that's like years away.

How do I deal with this?


Thanks...looking for suggestions.

#1 I have said anything about yet, but making a list of all these incidents. Worrid about kicking the hornets nest, but if I feel the line is severely crossed, I will.

#2 I kinda laughed about and asked if she needs my itinerary for my life...and thought when she said she wanted to divorce me, the big bad absuer, that she was saying she no longer cared about my life.

#3 Said to STBX "I'm not sure if this is really true, but the kids said you were getting them to spy on me...." I said it is completely inappropriate for her to even suggest that I might be seeing other people...that it only will cause problems...and that I will tell the kids when I think it is necesary if I ever do start dating.

I think she's being ridiculous, out of control, abusive, and indeed irrational. But how do I do anything without pissing her off??

Get the kids away from her. Document everything. Life is tough enough without physical abuse from someone who loves you. You can do beter by them. It will mess them up for life if you let it continue.

it's one thing for her to yell at you.....shows she's unhappy, demanding, out of control. BUT, hitting the kids.....is illegal, immoral, and uncalled for.

I would talk to her calmly and kindly about parenting the kids and the need to reassure them and help them through the divorce. Be very firm, but gentle, in letting her know that if you learn of any more hitting you will have to report her, as it is child abuse. Be sure your attorney is aware of this when it comes to arranging custody. Remind your ex that regardless of your relationship, the kids come first.

Hi BP,
My dad stayed because (in part) my M was very abusive to me. Do whatever you can to get the kids out of there. Please.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she's being ridiculous, out of control, abusive, and indeed irrational. But how do I do anything without pissing her off?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she is, too, and I'm sure noone can do anything w/o pissing her off! Deal with the storm that it will take to get everone out of there, and go dark. Nothing else will work. Good luck - Dru

BP22:

Call up the STBX and tell her that the next time you hear that she's hit the kids, you will DEFINITELY call child protective services and have them REMOVED from the home. This isn't a simple "divorce" issue--these are your children! You owe them protection from an abusive mother!

You are NOT at your wife's beck and call. When she yells at you for not answering the phone, tell her (respectfully, of course) that you don't appreciate her angry outbursts. Ask her to approach you with respect in the future or you won't deal with her, period.

In terms of her using the kids as spies, just don't buy into it. If the children ask you something that is inappropriate or something that you feel they were coached into asking, either don't answer OR be very vague. Treat their questions as "children" questions. Give them very little information and don't put your children in the middle by asking them questions about their mother.

Good luck to you....

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: *^aeri^* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do I handle these things? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Go home!

#3 Kids and STBX will see that you are not dating.
#2 STBX will always know what you are doing.

#1 You can protect your children from the physical abuse that they do not deserve and you can build a case case against her for custody and you can have child abuse charges filed against her when you are able to wittness it.

Don't let your children pay for this. You get in there or get them out !

WIWH

WIWH, he can't go home if you mean back with his STBX.

BP22, I think we should have a race to see if you get the papers first or I get the books out of the basement first! I still say have your own lawyer do it. BUT you have a bigger problem now.

Sounds like she was "hitting" and not "spanking." Hitting is totally unacceptable. I think you need to stir the nest. Remember, you're not doing it for you. You're doing it for the children. Be brave for them. You know you would defend them from a bear. So, just use that imagery.

As for the dating stuff... Just be honest with the children in an approapriate manner. You can tell them you aren't currently dating, and you aren't planning to date until such and such a time. End of discussion.

And if she yells because you don't pick up the phone, calmly say "I'll be happy to discuss this with you when you aren't yelling. Please call me back then." If a man pulled that, tons of people right here would be crying Verbal Abuse.

I hate, hate, hate that kind of double standard.

Thanks all. Thanks greengables. Yes, you are absolutely positively 200% correct...if I ever did such a thing to her, or any man to a woman, that would indeed be called all sorts of things. Any of the things I have listed.

I did do as you have all suggested...altough I have yet to talk to her about this hitting stuff. Yeah, she know's she's in pure rage when she does it. She always aplogizes later. But obviously that isn't acceptable. I know as soon as I even mention it, she'll get 100% defensive, all angry, start yelling at me, and then probably just take it out on my daughter the next time something comes up.

You know, I'm the big bad abuser, and she's the victim. She will forever live in this state of existence, largely becuase of the support she has received HERE, and mostly becuase of the stupid books she has read. LOL

I have moved her into the new house, that was Oh so much fun, with all her church buddies, whom all were told I'm the next thing up from Satan. LOL She even had a big fit that day at the kids...and all I could do was stand there, embarrassed, and wonder how people just can't see the truth. I have fixed so many things, offered to do anything I could so she could buy the new house, etc. She just won't get out of her state of mind...

She needs help, some kind of counseling, anti-depression help, something like that. I can't even broach the subject though, becuase it becomes a purely defensive, instant anger, and slamming me.

But I agree, I have to say somehting about her hitting. She thinks our daughter needs to be sent away to reform school or something. It's just sad. yes, she is a free spirit. Yes, she'll speak her mind, and yep, she has a very strong will. It's genetic. and I'm proud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But she's not bad, she's much better than many other kids. Had the slumber party at my house, 10 girls, there were no less than 3 girls who were much worse behaved. And that was at my house. I told STBX to have a slumber party at her place, and use it to observe...."I'm not that stupid. You are crazy" That's her reply. She couldn't do it. She couldn't handle the 10 kids. I had a blast.

So GreenGables, sure, we have a bet. I was supposed to get papers last week, yet again, LOL, so we shall see.

bp..You know, I'm the big bad abuser, and she's the victim. She will forever live in this state of existence, largely becuase of the support she has received HERE.

sufdb...amen. Unfortuneately that is one of the downsides of support boards. There is no way to handle accountability, which makes this place a fertile ground for promoting victim status. There are always those who feel the need to emotionally bond with the "victim" and not see through the manipulation. The "victim" needs help, but they no not need or benefit by validation, they need accountability, and a firm push away from victim status...

You are in a rock hard place, doubly difficult cause you are male, and automatically the evil one. All you can do is document this stuff, talk to protective services (re the child abuse), try to encourage your wife to do better.....remembering though your very existence is a huge defensive trigger, so bend over backwards not to push or even tickle any buttons. And do not take advantage of her failings, try to be supportive...or at least neutral.

re the unrelenting vituperation, grow a thick skin, and be civil/polite no matter how hard, but also keep to your boundaries. You may end up having to file yourself, someone must, it does no good to stay in this kind of limbo, that in itself causes emotional distress. And you might consider family counselling, maybe a therapist can help you two negotiate something that reduces tension, and your wifes AO. I don't think mary wants to behave like this, so do everything you can to not provoke, and not defend, that will help some.

Thanks sufdb, I agree. Not only am I male, I am phsycially large. That seems to work even more against me.

Yeah, I've gotten really good at "letting it go". it has, indeed, become my motto.

In regards to counseling, mp22 constantly was saying she wanted our daughter to go to counseling. She'd call me in her fits of rage and leave nasty, angry, screaming messages at me about our daughter. I told her, if you want counseling, than we shall do family counseling. All of us, or at least the three of us.

Never another word about counseling...

You are TOTALLY right. People like to bond with the victim. They like to lend support, and that can be TOTALLY the wrong thing.

That is why you get slammed so hard.

That is why wiffty gets slammed so hard.

(I get slammed mostly for other reasons I think...LMAO)

Anyways, it seems you understand my position perfecctly. I guess we share some of the same shoe leather.

Thanks.

Okay, let’s forget about support for “The Victim” and concentrate on what BP22 is going to do to protect his daughter. And what will be the most effective way. BP, do you know if your daughter has spoken to a teacher, doctor or school counselor about her mother’s rages? You may want to let her know that she may always confide in a trusted adult.

I’m thinking that a back way in may be most effective to putting an end to the rages and the physical hitting. And that’s what we really want. If BP22 goes to MP22 and says “Stop hitting my daughter. That’s abuse and I’ll call Child Services,” MP22 may start lining up her canons, all pointing at BP22 and what a bad parent he is. Forget reality here. We’re talking emotions and defenses.

I’d also agree with documenting any bruises. This probably is tricky with an 8-year old girl. We don’t want you to get arrested for indecent photography, BP22. But some documentation would be good.

ok, i was just browsing and saw this. Wow is all i can say. and to believe that people actually believe all of what bp says. 1st of all, I am filing for divorce against him because HE is abusive--not me. I did not hit the wind out of our daughter. She gets mad at me and tells him all sorts of stories and of course he eats it all up. He's almost 35, when will he stop believing an angry 8 year old who loves to manipulate both parents? The children would tell who the abuser really is. He is starting to talk and treat them like he did me. I am in shock about all of this. Anyone who remembers our story should be suspicious of his accusations. Get real. I'm so upset by this. He is the one who is being inappropriate with our 8 year old. Ask him about Subway and why the police were called. I wasn't even there so I certainly wasn't the abuser!! Unreal. Don't believe everything you read here! Bp's soon to be ex.

Greengables, you need to go back and read some of our old stuff. Get to know the real Bp. I stopped coming to this site because i realized that everybody just believes everything they read,although they have no clue what the real story is. I wish I hadn't read this because it is so untrue and is very upsetting to me. You should hear the stories I hear from the kids about when they are with him. Double standard--oh brother. I am too upset to even think. I can hardly even breath at this moment. Unreal.

ONe should absolutely take everything with a grain (sometimes a big grain) of salt when 2 spouse who are in obvious major conflict post, it really is impossible to actually tell what the truth is.....added to that is both spouses may actually "believe" they are telling the truth (that is a whole nother problem in itself...but does make it more understandable why they should be divorced).

Having said that mp, you need to understand a couple things. All anyone can do is post to what is written, whether it is true or not is irrelevant. This is not court, not real life, no one here is going to have any affect at all on anyone elses life....this is just free information, feedback, sympathy, whatever....it only has whatever value the "recipient" makes of it. Clearly a poster who misrepresents the facts, or uses this venue to support their "self-denial" is getting nothing of value.

I understand the "urge" to defend yourself, you are not the first (if your allegations are true) to be misrepresented or outright lied about (happend to me quite a bit, and it is maddening, I do understand). If that is what is happening to you, don't be pulled into it. You can post your version of the truth, and ask for any feedback you find useful, if you want to take the time, but that is really all you can practically do. On the other hand if bp is misrepresenting you, makes no difference, he is only hurting himself.

Having said that, I can't help but notice you really didn't offer any facts about his version of circumstances. True 8 yo can lie and manipulate, and children do get pulled into the marital conflict often, so let me ask you a few direct questions.

1. DO you scream and yell and cuss out bp?

2. Do you leave such messages on his answering machine?

3. Do you hit your kids at all, in any way?

4. Have you not filed for divorce for 8 months, despite saying you were?

5. Have you said anything at all to your children about BP adult life (relationship stuff)?

6. Do you get angry if he doesn't answer the phone?

7. Have you demeaned, badmouthed your H to other people?

8. Has bp been meeting his financial obligations to you ( child support, bill paying etc.).

9. Did he play a substantial role in getting you moved into your house?

I am also must note you offered no specifics about stories you are told. This is unfair character assasination by innuendo. If you are told stories, might they not also be lies as you suggest is the case with you. I guess you 2 could have raised a pack of lieing children...is that true? I must note too your reaction that you can hardly breath is a bit much, overly dramatic for the circumstance, suggesting you are not being forthright now...but I dunno. BP may be a skillful manipulator, playing headgames with you...or a major avoider, and trying to get support for his victim status (but this would be very very unusual for someone of his temperament, and job type).

I suspect the truth may lay somewhere in the middle. You are probably way more emotional, and the circumstances are making you a bit crazy and overreactive....that doesn't make you a bad person, or mother, but it does tell you important things about yourself. I also realize you are very angry at bp, but that isn't gonna help anything either, and probably isn't fair in large part, he just isn't who you want him to be, but he seems like a reasonable, responsible man...who no doubt pushes your buttons too. You two (and your kids) are far better served by cooperateing and doing your own personal self-work, then fighting. I think you could really benefit by a good cousellor mp, have you done that yet?

sufdb, thank you for your reply. I will try to answer your questions if I can remember them all. Bp does pay for the children's expenses. He is very reliable about this. He did help out alot with my move. I verbally thanked him and I had him over for a roast beef dinner the next night to thank him also. I have left messages on his machine regarding our 8 yr. old.(we also have a 9 and 6 yr. old). She sometimes beats up her sisters and has a pornographic mouth. I don't think this behavior is normal for an 8 yr old and I tried to talk to him about this. He once agreed that she should see a counselor and then backed out after I researched some well respected ones in our area. I did file for divorce in Sept. and the lawyer finally has a separation agreement written up for me to look at on Tues at 5:15 pm. The lawyer says it's quicker and easier to do the sep. agreement first. I was upset on Sun. when I and the girls spent 3 hours trying to reach him at home, on the cell phone and at work. We didn't know where he was. Our 8 year old wanted to talk to him ( she was throwing up at the time). She wanted to let him know she was sick and couldn't go out to dinner with friends like they were trying to plan. I needed to find out what time to drop them off to him that night. I do not need or care to know where he is all the time. He did make a big deal out of having a cell phone so he could be reached at any time by me or the girls. all I said was that i was upset that i couldn't get a hold of him and that what's the purpose of having the cell phone for? He replied that he was not at my beckon call. He's right, but the girls get very upset when they want or need to talk to him and he doesn't answer any of his 3 diff. phones. He also lied to me and said that he didn't hear the phone. Later he said he left it in the car. I don't remember any more questions so I'll post this and go back and reread your other questions.

sufdb, I do spank my children at times. I do not get out of control like he says. Since he's been out of the house I am very happy. I haven't been so happy ever before. I feel free. I can be myself. I am not put down every day. I love my job and am successful at it. Working nights can be a bummer some times, but I love it overall. I am no longer seeing a counselor nor do I think I need to. I am not angry at bp. I do get angry at times, but am not fundamentally angry at him. I thought we were getting along fine and was shocked by his post. We usually talk very calmly to eachother, although both of us have gone over the edge a couple of times. We are both much happier now and so are the kids. He is a great father and attends all school events and field trips. He's always involved in their lives. I feel like he's attacking me behind my back with all of this. It was shocking to me to read his post and hear his accusations. I do not cuss at him or anyone. Was that all of the questions?? I'm sorry if i missed something. Feel free to ask more. Mary.

could you comment on # 5 & 7?

Re all the phone stuff and the occassional intermperament remarks by folks under high emotional stress, the only advice can be, is try to count to 10 before saying somehthing, and try not to "bait" or be "baited"...it is hard sometimes.

About the phone bp, replying not being at beck and call was rude and insensitive (and you did own up to that comment, so we are on the same page as mp). You have 3 young children, you bet you are at beck and call, and I got to think you would want to be, and mp knows this about you too (you are a good dad), so naturally disappearing for 3 hrs is not too cool...ya know? And I am guessing you lied as well, and were doing something you didn't want mp to know about.....a details guy, who is an astronomer doesn't "lose" track if their phone...but whatever, you didn't need to give a rude remark to mp, even if she triggered you with some kind of psudeodemand re your whereabouts, I suspect she was emotionally reacting to YOUR daughters distress, and frustration at not reaching you....perfectly understandable.

However, I know you are probably more thin-skinned than usually due to the circumstances as well.....you both really need to talk this out, and work extra hard at biting your tounges before making angry accusations, comments, and retorts....ya know?

sufdb, about #'s 5 and 7- I have said to the kids that I think it strange how bp goes missing for hours on end and that I wonder if he has a girlfriend. I try not to bad mouth bp to friends or to the children. People who know us know our situation and how both of us act. No extra words need to be said. They've seen and heard them themselves. I sometimes verbalize statements of fact, but do not make things up or bad mouth. I don't understand bps comments about being with my church friends on moving day. He seemed absolutely comfortable and was sitting and visiting with everyone while we ate lunch together. He was not in a rush to leave. He was laughing and joking and I was under the impression that he was actually having a nice visit with everyone. Was that everything? Mary.

Well, I do often leave the cell phone in the truck for the day...or in the office when I am in the lab...or at home. If you call the way you acted that night when screaming at me acceptable, and upset "for the kids", I am puzzled. But, if that is what you say. Don't paint a picture that isn't true...you were pissed at me because you wanted to know when I was coming to get the kids. I did get the cell phone becuase 1) Can't make long distance calls from work 2) Didn't have a phone at the new house for a number of months 3) Thought it would be a convience because I can be hard to find. I'm not the "connected" teenager want to be, I don't carry it everywhere as a must have life line...LOL.

Suggesting things to the kids like "mommy might have a boyfriend" in any way, for any reason, is unacceptable. Suggesting anything to them about your life and lifesyle isn't the correct thing to do. When they ask question, I will answer. I will usually say that mom and dad are very different and believe very differently. This is what mom choses to do...I wouldn't. Those are more religoius type things than anything. I don't suggest or ask if mom is talking to her married EA friend. I don't care...I don't ask...I don't suggest. When the kids say something about it, I don't reply. I don't carry it onward, I don't suggest they find out more. Those types of things are only going to inspire problems. The kids are young, they don't run with ideas now like they might (or probbably will). My six year old wouldn't make up a story about "mommy asking us to spy on daddy and see he if has a girlfriend". I doubt she know's what "spy" means.

As for dealing with #2....maybe this thread will serve as the best way to get you to understand how angry you become. You lose your control and temper with #2. Everyone has seen this. And you know you get very mad, very fast. It doesn't matter if she says she wants to "dance with her sexy dog" or "have big boobs" or "touching your boobs" or whatever, it doesn't give the excuse to strike. Spanking is on the buttocks. When you get upset, you will "slap" at her, maybe in the side, maybe in the leg...I don't know. You are right, all I have is what the kids tell me. But I also have seen your outbursts, I have been on the receiving end of your outbursts, and I know that #2 drives you INSANE. I know you don't come to me and tell me thse things happen...I know you are "afraid" the kids are going to tell me...and I know you know they are wrong. SO I ask that you just stop them, before something happens, that crosses the line. Maybe by accident...but when you are in pure rage mode, who knows. Just please stop going there.

What I said about counseling, and will say again, is that family counseling is acceptable. I don't think #2 has any of the problems you think. Yes, she is free spirited. Yes, she will say/do what she thnks. Yes, she will be defiant, especially to you. Have a slumber party....look at 10 kids...and you will see, she's not an exteme at all. She's ambitious, driven, and confident. Yes, she can be EXTREMELY STUBBORN. When she isn't getting ready as fast as you like, you get extremely upset. When she doesn't obey your commands, you get very upset. You need to realize that YOU are responsible for YOUR ACTIONS, YOU are the adult, and YOU are the one that has to chose how to deal with her. When you are in these anger outbursts, you do not spank her on the but. First, she'd never bend over and allow you to spank her, so in rage, you start trying to do so. You can't spank during the moment, you need to wait, and spank later. First, there's more chance shell let you. Secondly, you are in control and chosing to do so out of "love".

I have to disagree with you about the counseling thing. I think, it seems to me, it would be very beneficial for you to talk to someone about how to deal with #2. Since you have these outburst and you want to "control" her, in that you want to stop her from acting in ways you don't approve of, I think you need to learn alternative methods of dealing. And most certainly, you need to realize that direct "frontal" engagement with an 8 year old isn't going to do anything constructive. With the others, it probably would. But not with #2.

I don't understand why you get so defensive and have to try and deny so many things. You always apologize to the kids about your behavior afterwards...that is one thing you never did to me, so that I see as a positive. But why not just stop? Why not just walk away? Why not just go outside, lock your door, walk in the bathroom? Why do you do something then apologize? just stop doing it. When you sense that anger coming, walk away. It works very well....if you just walk away. You got intot he truck when you were still angry, and apparenlty started to drive off when makayla was still getting in. Sure, you thought she got in a different door...whatever...BUT, if you weren't in rage, you would have tuned and looked. The consequences of that moment "could" have been devasting...and it is the rage that is to blame.

I do not want to get anyone else involved. I think that is ridiculous as well. BUT, as others have said, #2 is being affected by the angry outbursts...more than you think. Go and actually interact with a dozen 8 year olds...and you will see. You have to stop acting that way...you have to control your anger. It isn't love that is trying to help #2 or change her ways during those outbursts.

Please don't get all defensive. There's no way I can ever say these things to you in real life.

Please, when you find yourself getting mad at her, before you have the need to apologize after things cool down, please just walk away.

Yeah, she can be strong and stubborn. She got a double dose of stubbornness...LOL. And when she gets in her moods, or on her little kick, she just loves to push your buttons and see what you do. She learned that from one of the best at it (you), and she is now giving it back to YOU in spades. But you play in to it...so just stop.

I think things are going great in all this mess of divorce. The kids are doign very well. Yeah, #2 acts out, but that's not a result from the divorce. It is how she has always been. But I think of the three, she clealyr is the most manipulative.

I just asked #3 about the incident were #2 said she couldn't breathe and then mom started to drive away in the car while she was getting in. She reports that #2 was being a real pain, not getting ready like mom was asking. Mom get very mad, did hit #2, but #3 says that #2 could breathe just fine. So, she said that mommy was very mad, but only hit #2 like she usually does when really mad.

When I picked them up, #2 asked if she should tell dadddy what mommy did? Mommy didn't reply that I know of. So then I got the story...some version of it anyways. I never brought it up with you mp22, beucase I know how you would have responded.

So, the point here is, as I see it....You loose your temper...you do things in rage...and you discipline not at all in love, but in rage. This is what is not acceptable. This has to stop. You need to stop striking them, even spanking, when you have lost control and are in rage. The bible I think even says this.

I do not want to cause any problems between us. I am very happy, all in all, with how everything is. I don't in anyway want to stir that up. That's why I posted this post...becuase I was hoping someone would suggest a way to deal with things, with you, that wouldn't cause huge problems. As I have posted previously, I don't think #2 is truely in physical harm...although I fear one of these outburst could just go to far. How do I say something to you mp22 to get you to see your outbursts for what they are? How do I get you to realize your anger with her? How do I get you to realize that if it is somehting you need to apologize for, that you shouldn't do it in the first place? The first aplogogy should have been the very last...but it isn't. I understand we all have our faults, we all get angry, we all have outbursts, but I feel like I have to be involved when it involves the kids. I understand your anger and frustration with #2, I really do, but she's 8, your 38, the control issue rests soley on you...not on her.

So mp22, I apologize if you think I am here just trying to "defame" you. That is not at all my purpose, nor has it ever been. I am trying to find a way to communicate to you that you need to control your outbursts. Do you think #2 doesn't learn them from you? Do you think there is really any good that comes from them? I know you don't....but I don't know why you continue to do them.

I'm glad you have found this thread, I think. I hope you understand and realize my concern is for you and #2, your relationship together, and most important for #2's own self development and her well being. Both of you are like big horn sheep, and your heads butt and ram hard together. Since you are the parent, you feel like you have to "win" in these duels. I wish you'd realize, as the parent, that you should just walk away from them. That is victory. Once things have settled out, in 30 minutes or whatevr, then you can dole out the punishment for her actions. Not in rage though, that isn't right.

<small>[ March 14, 2004, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: bp22 ]</small>

MP thx for replying, and maybe with some input here you two can get past this impasse and concern over the kids well-being. Obviously none of us really know the "truth", but bp was seemingly trying to resolve a concern with the kids, and not criticize you. If he has these concerns (and is not just some pathological liar, coming here making up totally false stuff, which would be really weird, so very unlikely), then there must be a reason. Ya know mp anger is an issue, there probably are very few parents who haven't yelled abusively, or hit there kids when angry, it doesn't make you a bad mom or a failure if you have....I imagine bp has not always parented perfectly either...but this is not a contest who is "worst" this is a problem to resolve for your kids sake, and you should be able to work together on it. It seems bp is willing to be supportive of your efforts, maybe if he can play a role in consequences that would be helpful...the absolutely critical thing is you both should present a united front to your kids.

re any hitting/spanking....STOP. You can no longer discipline your kids physically at all mary. No spanking, no hitting, no slapping, no tugging, no nothing...that is a clear boundary you can "see" and commit to. (same for you bp). It is never good anyways, and in the current family emotional crisis this has got to go....do you agree mary? There are tons and tons of books on child discipline, you need to develop a consequence based program....and you need to fully accept your kids are gonna pull your strings...alot. Be patient, walk away when angry, and have well thought out consistent consequences for typical infractions, so your kids know what to expect...and don't forget rewards for cooperative behavior. Get books, and counselling too, and make this clearly a joint effort from both parents.....meaning they get the same story, and if a consequence is happening, it continues when they are with bp...you getting that bp?

re the discussion of dad with a friend you had with kids....that is EXTREMELY inappropriate, and must stop, in fact IMO you should apologize to kids saying it was not right for you to say such things, and you don't know anyways, was just gossiping. Likewise you bp, should say nothing about mary either. Divorce, seperated, married whatever....the kids should always see a united front, and see JUST their parents....if both of you cannot do that, then whoever can't has big big issues and IS NOT being a good parent, this is not optional.

bp I still don't understand the phone thing. You got the cell to be in touch, and then you are not? What gives? I cannot imagine being unavailable for 5 minutes, much less hours or days...what if one of the kids was seriously injured, or some such? Clearly one may be out of touch for awhile sometimes, bad signal, forgot the phone, etc. But mary should have all the phone numbers wherever you may be, and be ok to try them (or let kids call) subject I guess to employment rules. But most phones have missed call, and voicemail which you can check when you do get back to the phone, you can also get a pager. So tell me big guy straight up, and skip the baloney, do you intend to be available to your kids 24/7 or not? And conduct your telephonic life accordingly.

And mp, I guess if you want better access to bp, or any cooperation, you really got to bite your tounge with the lovebusters, even though that shouldn't make any difference IMO re access (because of the kids), it doesn't help..ya know. Re the tirades bp (and mp) I have been the recipient of hundreds of absolutely hateful, over the top verbal lashings/attacks (and heaven help me if I slip in to child mode and utter a return insult/namecall)...this is what women do bp. Men would beat the crap out of each other at some point (so they tend to be very careful about how they talk to each other), women attack verbally (to each other, and seek allies, the whole catty thing), it is not fair (when they visit this on men, since we can't respond as males do), you can't punch em out, so there is no consequence for the verbal attacks... You just have to endure, not respond, and mary, you are angry, probably with some good reason, you are both good people in an intolerable situation...but you really really need to try and not be verbally abusive...and bp, you need to let her vent some, but not push her buttons either....negotiate, negotiate, negotiate, she probably feels you are trying to "get her" on this hitting stuff, and afraid be a factor in custody issues.... For the kids sake, you need to reassure her this is not about getting her, or kids baring tales, and IMO some family counselling could be very helpful.

Mary, bp's post, whether completely accurate or not reveals some very real concerns about YOUR (both of you) children, this does not just come out of nowhere, what would be the point? Why make this up? So I have to assume there is some legitimate concern, even though neither of you may have a 100% accurate understanding.....so my advice, talk about it...NO DEFENSIVENESS just listen to each other, and try to find a solutions...again NO DEFENSIVENESS negotiate a discipline/consequence solution that starts from NO HITTING of an kind, by either of you. You can do this.... give specifics and ask for input, I bet there are lots of good ideas here.

Good Luck.

and bp, you a smart guy, tie a string around your finger if you can't remember the phone....sheesh.

<small>[ March 14, 2004, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>