GG:
Are you sure your husband doesn't have OCD? I always thought he must based on your description...he can't overcome those books because of his mental illness. But of course you are important just because you are you!

What is OCD? Oh, obsessive compulsive disorder, right?
Could be. That would also explain why he keeps buying more and more and can't/won't maintain an optimum inventory level. By any business model, his inventory is way too high and his liquid assets are too low.
Or could just be that this was never supposed to be a "business" just a self-supporting hobby. And girlfriends or a wife would supply the standard of living stuff.
I know that sounds incredibly disrespectful. And at this point, I have little respect for my STBX's choices in the business/financial support arena.
Of course, so far as I know, all the MC and his IC have uncovered is that I'm not "committed to the marriage." Whatever that means.

i love your epiphany.

I am with you. Was sometime ago, maybe Oct. of last year when I realized I didn't care if I mattered to xh or not. That I mattered to my son, my God, my friends, my family. That those who love me are all that matter in the universe anyway. That with them and their love, I am indeed rich and in need of nothing...well, maybe a few material possessions...lol! So, no, don't think I'm gonna join the peace corps or something and bestow all my worldly possessions...there are too many good malls in ATL... For Lent, I am trying to be more selfless. Am working w/a woman in my women's bible study to help her as she's emotionally where I was a year and a half ago with regard to her divorce.

GG,

I think your Epiphany is wonderful! You have value beyond belief. God values each of us, even the ones that don't believe. So much so that He is ready, willing and able to forgive all of us our sins the moment we open the door for Him to come into our lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's a gut-felt enlightening that has nothing to do with rational logic or brain-belief or even faith. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that is the Holy Spirit making His presence known in your life! You are not only valued by the Lord, but you have a purpose here. (Romans 8:28) He has a plan for you, and one day will make it known to you what that plan is! You may have just moved one step closer to that enlightenment! Lucky You!!
It must be hard for the non-believers to feel purposeful. I am glad that I know that there is a purpose to this life, to know that we are not all here blindly roaming the earth. I am not bashing non-believers, God gives us all free will and He knows that not all will follow His teachings. I am simply stating my most humble opinion.

God Bless,
r0uter

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: r0uter ]</small>

Yes, one step on the journey to enlightenment. I like that. And you know, ultimately, I believe that the Creator brings even non-believers closer.

Router...I'm not trying to start a war at all...but I need to reply.


You state it must be hard for non-believers to feel a purpose...This non-believer has NO PROBLEMS whatsoever feeling his purpose. In fact, I think it must be hard for believers to really enjoy life, to truely appreicate things in everyday life, because in my minds eye, I see believers casting way to much "life" away to faith. Faith that things will work ok, faith that the "creator" will take care of them, faith that satisfies their curiosity and prevents them from seeking a deeper understanding, a deeper connection with the universe around me.

Kinda funny how the exact opposite is true from the exact opposite viewpoint. What you consider as strength, support, love, and "assurance" received from your faith...From my viewpoints, those very things, I think, are stiffled by religion and a belief in the supernatural.

Neat how that works...

BP, sometimes it can be used as the opium not only of the masses but also of the individual. For the sake of arguement, let's assume God for the next sentence.
As even believers are mere mortals, they may have a hard time sometimes deciphering what the divine will is.

And just as many times as "superstition" has kept people trapped, so has the belief that there is no greater force than us, a belief that we are just a chemical cocktail. Or worse, it leads beyond existentialism to nihilism.

Truly it seems less important what you believe than what you do with that belief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Truly it seems less important what you believe than what you do with that belief.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely! When it is put that way, it really doesn't matter what you believe.. The fact is that everyone does believe something.

And some people are fortunate enough to be given enlightenment into what they believe.

WIWH

Yep, I totally agree GG and WIWH...

And what is really nice is when what you believe GIVES YOU the enlightenment of life and living.

No hard feelings bp22 you are entitled to your opinion and feelings.

I find it funny that what you consider restrictions, we (believers) see as freedom. Faith, as you describe it, does not prevent us from seeking a higher (or deeper) understanding of the universe, or the microcosms within the universe. Quite the contrary, our faith in God gives us the freedom to do just that. Freedom to know that the deeper understanding is actually bringing us closer to his will. Because the more we understand, the more we realize his purpose.
Belief in God means that we abide by His "rules" (the ten commandments), funny thing is, even non-believers follow these rules, albeit not purposefully.
The Commandments are basically moral guidelines; even non-believers who have morals, stay within those guidelines. If you try to look at it the other way around it doesn't work; true believers who follow the "rules" cannot be without morals. That is not to say that all believers follow the Commandments to the letter, that is why Jesus suffered for our moral wrongdoings (sins). To think otherwise would mean that one would believe that anyone who commits adultery (just as an example) is a non-believer. That simply is not the case. I know I haven't covered all of the bases on this one, but I think you get the idea of my views.
I do not judge you for you beliefs, I am not the judge. Only God Himself has that privelege. If we knew each other well enough to be friends, I would not shun you as a friend for your beliefs. (That doesn't mean I wouldn't continue to try and convince you otherwise in a friendly, non-threatening way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Take Care and Be Well,

r0uter

P.S. Sorry to hi-jack your thread GG.
God Bless and keep you.

That isn't a threadjack. It's totally on target for this thread. And I love debating stuff like this with well-spoken, thoughtful and respectful people.

Heck, I was even looking for your reply.

BTW, R, the Holy Ghost is my favorite part of the three-part God. And I do believe my epiphany was enduced by the Holy Spirit.

BP, would you put my epiphany down to a sudden surge of electrons along the synapses effected by something I ate?

I swear I didn't eat that awsome Stout beer brownie until the next day.

GG....No, you already answered that question. Go back and read your first post. You said that you were feeling bad becuase you thought you didn't matter. Ex didn't think you were important, so you felt unimportant. "Suddenly", your brain did jump onto a bandwagon of warmth, love, support, and happiness...through the faith that comes with belief in a diety that is omnipotent and cares.

That is why I think you suddenly had that Ephinany. Not a random "surge of electrons", that's more like electrocution! LMAO. But a very well controlled secretion no doubt by that part of the brain that releases those feel good endorphines. Had you looked out the window at that moment and saw someone in need of your assitance, which you quickly would run out and give, you'd have had the similar feelings of happiness, but without the thoughts of diety.

I don't mean to make it sound so "chemical", although obviously it is. Obvious to me anyways.

I realize the good that can come from faith. As ILMF and others will say, at some point, one can say all things are taken on faith. If you fly in an airplane....do you think god holds it up? Or do you have faith in 1/2pv^2, Bernoulli's little expression, that says that curved wings will produce lift? Or do you have faith in the mechanics that serviced the airplane that morning?

Here's a question I was thinking about last night...for you faith folks. Would you fly on your flight if you knew the mechanics skipped the maintenance on your plane to attend prayer meeting? What if they prayed for the plane? Why not have faith it will stay up? Why not just pray yourself?

I AM NOT trying to cause problems...LOL...think about it seriously. In my mind, religion is just a "crutch" to lean on, something to make you feel better, something to have as a constant standby, and very convienently it can always be made to fit every situation....God wanted those folks in Spain to die....it was his will...he gave free choice...etc.

Router...you probably don't know me that well. I grew up as a born again christian. Hardcore I was. No rock music, never drank or smoke (still haven't), I was the poster child for the youth group, I used to witness to all my friends, all that jazz. But I always had my interest in science...and I always worked in my mind to correlate science and the bible. I used to teach sunday school every now and then with my "new findings", about how they both agree. LOL Then I went to college and was immersed in science, physics. Suddenly, it became very clear to me that I didn't need to conjure the notion of a diety, of an omnipotent one. In fact, since there is NO PROOF, not a single piece of reproducible physical evidence, not a single shard (that I have ever seen), it became clear that I no longer "needed", nor could, conjure up such a diety. So my faith was totally removed. Totally. And I realize now that it was nothing more than the feelings I felt.

Sure, my hands were raised to heaven many times during various youth outings, Word of Life, church, etc. I used to truely "feel" the holy spirit in me. I used to sense the presence of the lord. It is an AMAZING experience to sit in a church with 100 people, singing all the great songs, so very often on communion sunday, thinking about how jesus died on the cross for me. The agony, the torture, truely an undiening love he displayed for ME. WOW. So incredibly moving.

Now I realize it is just emotion. Yeah, now I get the same feelings when I see equal amounts of committment and love shown, or when I feel close and connected to nature. Climbing to the top of a mountain to watch sunrise...WOW...it is wonderful. Sitting under a dark clear sky...WOW...nothing like it. I'm an astronomer in my "day" job. Watching incredible acts of committment and love...take movies for example (yeah, not real...but the idea is there) Last of the Mohicans...no movie shows that much committment and love as that movie. The british soldier giving his life to burn at the stake for his loved woman, who turned him away! The young girl who jumps to her death instead of going to Maugua! Daniel Day Lewis for shooting the british guy, buring at the stake. The brother who fought Maugua, and was killed, and his father who then finished the job. Flight 93...they brought it down in PA, they knew damned well where they were going, and they attacked, and brought the plane down (prevented it from striking a target anyways). Talk about love, committment, and sacrifice. Could you imagine being those guys? I'm 6'2" and some 295...I think I it'd be probably impossible to stop me with a box cutter. But I crap in my pants when I think about those guys doing what they did...knowing what was to happen...and having made their final calls home. Thinking about their sacrifice instills in me that sense of love that I felt while in the presence of the lord. It's a chemical thing...in the brain. You can take a pill and have the same effect, all the time so they say...LOL.

Yeah, those are movies. But the acts of love and committment in those movies are the most extreme that people can make. Yeah, they move me. They create that identical sense of warmth, love, and "faith" that I used to feel to Amazing Grace, Ten Thousand Angels (my favorite), Redeemer, etc. Yeah, I still like to sing the hyms, because they still induce that chemistry in me, becuase it is a "learned" response. And becuase I am thoughtful, and appreciate love and committment, even if in this case it is just a story...

Anyways, that is exactly what I think happened to Anne, and exactly what I think happens to people all over the place, and couple that with the purpose and "direction" they feel from religion.

In and of itself, it isn't necessarily a bad hting. But it very easily can be. When people start making decisions based on their faith, and following what others say, without their own independent thought. If they can't back it up, then I guess I think it is following. So many of the christians in my life, especially my ex-wife, I have to say are that way. They just follow...like sheep...they follow their shepard. Some will follow them to their death, like Jim Jones, and yes, that is an extreme case.

Others will cling to the faith, the ideals, and the morals, and yet they will still think for themselves. That's not a bad thing, until it interferes with their lives in some "artificial" way.

5 years ago, I started to focus on the family. I poured my heart and soul to my wife...many times in tears telling her how lonely I felt, how distant, unconnected. As in the other thread, I had realized mortality, that these days are being truely wasted...and that I longed for so much more between us. One day she looked at me, "You need Jesus". See, that's when religion gets in the way! And I have felt that pain everyday since that day.

Nope, not everyone is like that. Many here are great thinkers, they will quesiton themselves and their beliefs, and I totally respect that. However, many folks (none here of course) are unwilling to question...are unwilling ot make the effort to understand another viewpoint.

So, what would you prefer your airline mechaincs to do? Work on the plane, using modern engineering and technology, or pray for the plane?

Why? How come? Why don't you place the power of faith, with your life, in the hands of god?

That is what I don't understand. In my viewpoint, people have the faith, becuase they "get" something from it. They feel the warmth and comfort. They feel the promise of eternal life.

Morally, I'm with most christians most of the way. Not everyway, becuase I think the minds are too closed. I belkieve the stories were written in the past to conjure social control and to make the churhc remain pre-eminent in the lives of most people. For centuries, people were "scared" into the church, and to service and support the church. It was a HUGELY powerful tool...and it worked.

Until science came along, and suddenly things had to be changed somewhat. People began to realize the Earth wasn't the center of the universe....hmmmmm, OK says the church. Somehow that was accepted. People began to go to the doctor, whose modern technology could make them better, instead of going to pray at the church. Hmmmm, luckily the almight inspired man to LEARN...so modern technology could be developed to better life. People started travelling in airplanes...instead of walking the roads.

I don't know, I am NOT being disrespectful or attacking. In my viewpoint, as people have learned more, understood more, and developed more, the "need" for religion has reduced. As has the role of the church in our daily lives. (thank goodness!)

I do personally think it EXTREMELY HYPOCRITCAL for the people who believe and have faith to not do so to the extreme case that they can. I think it is ironic that they turn to modern medicine, modern technology. I don't understand how they can "justify" that.

Where's the faith?

It's like having the best of both worlds....having your faith for eternal life in heaven with jesus, all your dead friends/family, AND also using the modern technology that science has developed.

Science is all about evidence...repeatibility...predictability. Faith isn't that way.

I'd LOVE TO SEE just ONE physical shred of evidence for anythign supernatural. I want to experience it for myself. I want to see someone levitate (and I have freedom to look for strings). I want to see the dead rise...and I have the freedom to know that the dead was dead. I want to see ANY shred of phsycial evidence...and then I can accept it.

Phew, long winded, again.

SO GreenGables, should you still be reading, LOL, I think it was just your own need for warmth and support that made you feel that way. I do it too. But I don't call it faith in a diety...I just call it me.

I've been in your shoes...I have felt and believed like you do. When I found answers that truely explained the world in which we live, that are predictable, and that work time and time again...I lost the need for "faith". Faith in a diety anyways. Now I have to have faith in me, in my fellow lady and man, that we shall do the right things for each other, for ourselves, for all.

Yeah, its pretty grim in this world...but that's just selfishness. It has never changed. It persists even in the highest of offices in this wonderful country of ours...in spades in fact. But we can only keep working towards the good.

<small>[ March 16, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: bp22 ]</small>

BP22, I think my personal beliefs are a bit more mixed than many who style themselves as Christian. I do believe in a higher power. After all who created the Big Bang? Evolution seems to confirm a wise creator. Rationally, I know it could all be a way of avoiding thinking of my own mortality. For religions promise something even the ceasing of self as self, but still being part of the Life Force. All around me I see a web of interconnecting Life Energy. It’s that matter/energy stuff scientists claim can neither be created nor destroyed. Sometimes I feel it around me. Other times, I’m immune to it.

In plays, movies, and literature, we have the willing suspension of disbelief. I think sometimes that’s just what religion is.

Personally, I find the whole subject fascinating and love learning about it. And arguing philosophy, and even theology.

GG...I agree. Perhaps parts of me "want" to find some reason to believe...LOL...becuase I know dieing isn't going to be plesant. But alas, until I see some evidence, I will never allow myself to "accept" something...just to make me feel better.

I wonder why that is....Hmmm. That's interesting in itself.

So, did you have happy times in your marriage? How old were you when you met? How long was the courtship?

I;m not cosmology expert, but nobody understands the "big bang". But rest assured, we do see everyday in science were "something" comes from "nothing", in that there are vacuum flucuations as they are called. In other words, a particle and it's anti-particle are "created" out of nothing...and usually they just kill each other and go away...unnoticed. But there are times when they are created near other objects and ARE affected...and ARE created.

So, while we don't understnad the big bang and all the details....in my eye, there was no "creation" to it...it just happened. And most likely it will happen again. Just like the vacuum flucuations.

I guess what I am saying is, there doesn't need to be a creator...it can be a cyclic, periodic, natural occurrence kinda thing.

I'm no expert though on general relativity and cosmology. It all hurts my brain. LMAO I like to build things, and observe things, not run computer simulations and do weird multi-dimensional math.

And GreenGables, for what it is worth, I have always liked your attitude and approach to things. You ARE one to think and ponder and wonder and consider. Your "story" has always been interesting to me...I'd think a book dealer would totally appreicate the open, thoughtful mind that you possess.

<small>[ March 16, 2004, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: bp22 ]</small>

Well, BP22, it could be your way or it could be mine. I hope (not believe) my outstanding questions will be answered in the hereafter. You don't have that luxury.

You know for a while I was with the Moderns and thought perhaps God had died. I can't be an aetheist. But agnostics were.... wishy-washy.

I'll tell you something else. I'm not sure I believe in an anthropomorphic God. I believe in a higher power, an energy field. I believe in the major religious paradigms that run through the major religions, like the flood, the sacrifice, redemption, being made out of clay.

And even if there isn't a grand Plan in the way mere humans use the word, I believe there is a flow and pattern and I'm part of it.

Thank you for the compliments on my mine. I have to go check out your other thread to find out if you're any forwarder on the divorce.

For the record: I flew in the Navy for 10 years. I knew the maintenance guys/girls and put much faith in God to bring us home because of that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I understand Bernoulli's expression, but (as you alluded) I believe God gave man the ability to discover the sciences. God wants for us to be happy and to learn. He does not want us to have a stagnant life, but to be constantly exploring our surroundings. So, I would (truly) not care if the maintenance crew was praying, or working. (I always say my own prayers anyway! and how do I know whether they (the maintainers) are working or not?)
Reminds me of a little funny though: Sitting on an airplane saying my prayer, the woman next to me replied that prayer wouldn't help. "Why?", I aksed. "Because, if it is your time, it is your time." I said to her, "Yeah, but what if it's your time, and I just happen to be sitting next to you?!!"

Putting you faith in a higher power, as we believers do, seems foolish to non-believers. But is a comfortable thing to most. Even if we are all wrong, at least I will have been happy and secure along the way. I know without a doubt that there have been times when, if I had been without faith, I would have had a much harder time, or possibly plunged into a deep depression. It is nice to feel like there is a reason for my existence beyond the purely scientific theories.

Whatever works, works! Right? How boring would this world be without differences of opinion and such? If we were all cookie cutter people with the same views and ideals, it would truly be a bland and boring life! So thanks for having your own unique views and beliefs, God loves you anyway! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Take care,

r0uter

<small>[ March 17, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: r0uter ]</small>

GG,
Wish I had found this before! It would have had a better impact immediately following your original post!

$20 Bill

A well-known speaker started off his seminar by holding up a $20.00 bill. In the room of 200, he asked, "Who would like this $20 bill?"
Hands started going up. He said, "I am going to give this $20 to one of you but first, let me do this. He proceeded to crumple up the $20 dollar bill.
He then asked, "Who still wants it?" Still the hands were up in the air.
Well, he replied, "What if I do this?" And he dropped it on the ground and started to grind it into the floor with his shoe. He picked it up,
now crumpled and dirty. "Now, who still wants it?" Still the hands went into the air. My friends, we have all learned a very valuable lesson. No matter what I did to the money, you wanted the money because it did not decrease in value. It was still worth $20. Many times in our lives, we are dropped, crumpled, and ground into the dirt by the decisions we make and the circumstances that come our way. We feel as though we are worthless.
But no matter what has happened or what will happen, you will never lose your value.
Dirty or clean, crumpled or finely creased, you are still priceless to those who DO LOVE you. The worth of our lives comes not in what we do or who we know, but by WHO WE ARE. You are special - Don't EVER forget it." Count your blessings, not your problems.
And remember: amateurs built the ark ...professionals built the Titanic


Enjoy!

r0uter

I loved the $20 story, Router. Very interesting. And of course, on of the points implicit in your other post was that “believers” hold a wide variety of beliefs. My God doesn’t go around keeping airplanes flying. In fact, I think my God would be down right angry if I decided to close my eyes while driving the car because I expected (in fact demanded) that the Holy Spirit do it for me.

BP – I totally missed your questions about my marriage history. Sorry. Let’s see I met my husband when I was 27. We were married within a year and had our first the next year. Things started to go bad pretty quickly. My H’s old girlfriend died and he got very depressed. He started sleeping on the sofa. Oh, yeah. A clue right there, but I accepted his reasons. He couldn’t sleep so he read and then feel asleep.

For the most part, marriage was a big long ordeal. We did enjoy doing some stuff together, but our world view was and is so different that we have a hard time finding a common understanding. I was a young 28 who had done her major growing when I married. My husband admitted be being immature. But at 45, he was perhaps more set in his ways. Anyway, I grew. A lot.

And as I grew my self-confidence and my desire for an ideal intimate emotional connection grew. And that connection necessitates a common world-view, IMHO.

In general, I think the MB principles will work for couples who have some degree of compatibility. Or who once were able to fill each others ENs. I was married before I realized that my H was unable to meet some of my ENs in the way I wanted them met. And then, my ENs changed with the birth of my first child.

Hey GreenGables, OK, so then you sounds rather similar to me...in that you grew much after getting married.

So it sounds that before marriage, you thought you had what it takes to stay together. So you expected a good, happy marriage. But then it all fell apart...you learned MANY MANY things.

I think that IS the key...you LEARNED so much, after marriage.

That is why I think I have look at marriage very favorably now...I too learned many things. Enough, I think, that the next time around, I will ask myself ALL the questions...and I'd like to say, I could really tell if I'd be happy in the long run. Whereas before, I never asked any questoins, I never had ANY doubts, I just "knew" it was gonna be great! LMAO

So...maybe if you ponder how much you have learned, and how much you didn't know back then, maybe your "faith" in marriage can be somewhat restored.

I totally agree about compatability...it IS the key. Marriage without it is doomed...either to total unhappiness, or total failure. I can't ever imagine how an uncompatible couple can be truely happy. Denial can work...but only until the truth is seen. Then I don't think you can ever go back.

Anyways, sounds like you are saying you weren't mature enough "to know", so being all that much closer now, yeah we will never "know", I think it gives much confidence for the future! Even the future of marriage...