GG....I don't know. I guess since I married at age 12, more or less, I can easily say I wasn't even close to ready. Therefore, it is very easy for me to blame it on youth, immaturity, not knowing me, religion, etc.

Hmmmmm. If I were to find "the one" in the next five years, answer all my questions, and truely feel totally compatible with this person...to find out in a few years that I was wrong...then yep, I think I'd be totally lost and against marriage.

But, do you really feel like you did all those things before marriage? Did you answer all of your questions? Did you pursue all the issues that now you know could be issues? For example, all the issues you've heard about from MB here? FOO? Family? Kids? Etc?

I can understand how you can answer all these questions...and then have people change...and be out to lunch. But, it seems, that would be somewhat rare...but I don't know. Maybe I am dead wrong.

I do think the idea of being committed to one woman for a lifetime is great. I find that extremely appealing. Both physcially, and more importantly too me, to have a lifelong, constant, and continual mind mate. Personaly, I think that is a wonderfully attractive thing. Hence my belief in marriage.

I got all the right answers, but then, I asked all the wrong questions.

Maybe in a few years. Plus, your marriage had some good times, didn't it?

No. GG, I would say our marriage never had any good times. I think the only time we were ever happy together was long before we were married...and when we could only be together for a limited time. You know, when I was 16 or something, and mom and dad were in the other room.

I'm not sure if mp22 would say we ever had good times after marriage. I believe in the past she has said that evreything changed on the honeymoon. Yeah, she's probably right. Without premarital sex, I guess I thought maybe there'd be sex on the honeymoon...LOL. Oh well.

So then there were years of denial, of accepting, of not having any clue of what htings could be like. I think with all the religion involved, there was NO CHANCE of divorce even being considered. I know my mother (a very religious nut herself...) suggested we separte a few times...but it was UNHEARD of in my book...and mary's too I think.

I had a plan...for my entire life...she was part of it, and that was that. It is completely irrational and STUPID looking back, but that is how it was. For me, from my perspective anyways. Mp22 may have different views.

Then the kids came...the first in 94, married in 90. YEah, I remember thinking that the kids would give us something to do together. STUPID. Obviously.

That's one reason I'm so anti-religion...as I think it does try to "coax" people into believeing, thinking, etc. in certain ways. BY NO MEANS do all people fall into that catgeory...so let's not start another religion war. LOL But I certainly was...in some sense anyways. It made me feel like I had to think and say one set of things, but what the real me thought was different. But until I went away to college, it had a strong hold on me. In college, studying physics, it all changed...and I realized I no longer needed and "faith", becuase it is possible to understand the world we live in without a diety. So, then, everything changed. I remember being worried that the pastor of our church wouldn't agree to marry us, becuase of my lack of faith and belief, but I guess he didn't ask enough, or I lied enough, not sure which one it was.

But, No, I don't think our marriage was ever good. I can remember select moments of goodness, that would last a few minutes...but never a complete day. Never a sunrise to sunset, I'm so glad we are together, kind of day.

That's pretty sad, but it is also very true. I will take most of the blame, for me, beucase I know that I was SO NOT READY to be married. I had no clue at that time who I REALLY was, what I really wnated, etc. Well, maybe I knew who I was, but I sure didn't know what I really wanted in a spouse. I'm sure I thought mp22 would be everything that I wanted, had all those expectations, but they are not at all fair obviously to ever hold on someone. Not that I "held them" intentionally or anything...I think they were unspoken expectations. And no doubt, she has her list of me that I never fulfilled for her. Without a doubt.

So, personally, I blame it all on immaturity, religion, and just ignorance. Stupidity really. We never spoke about raising kids...just said we both wanted them. Yeah, I was 20...and saying I wanted kids. Geez. We never spoke about sex apparently, although I would say it was clear we both wanted it. Well, that seemed to change after 7JUL00. And I'm sure we both thought about how living together would be...how we would talk and discuss things, how we would enjoy do ALL THOSE THINGS together, everything, you know, but apparently we never talked about WHAT THOSE THINGS would be. Because in 13 years, I don't think we can list on a hand 5 things we enjoy doing together.

That's why I have a positive outlook on marriage...because there never were any happy times, becuase it wasn't like it was really good and then just turned stale. It was something that happened before maturity ever set in...and therefore it is SO easy to understand, at least from my shoes.

If I had thought it was "all that", and really felt and believed it, and it was all taken away from me, I think I'd be in a very different position.

I think that marriage is a great idea. The notion of vowing myself to the one I love and want to be with forever is awesome.

I hate the divorce industry that preys on this noble notion. The government and divorce side of "marriage" terrify me. They make it so easy to get married and so painful to get out of marriage. It's almost like they should make you go through a class about getting married to educate you as to what your rights are and will be in the event things don't work out. That way you at least go in knowing what the consequences are!

I'm surprised that divorce lawyers don't hire people to put married people in compromising situations and then blackmail them. Or go door to door offering divorce packages and promotional offers. The single greatest way for them to drive business is to create an environment of fear and maltrust. How hard would that be?

I think all these things as I approach getting remarried... and I find that I have lots and lots of rationalization to just stay engaged... after all, except for a few "marital" things we are meeting each other's ENs, the commitment is obviously there, and there are no legal bindings happening. I love being engaged! SIGHS. I wish it could stay like this forever. But I know that at some point, I'll want the marriage and family and kids and the dream of being a father... at that point, I suppose I'll take a deep breath, put my faith in God, and go forward with hope.

Well, I think that marriage is nothing more than a civil union. The debate over gay marriage vs. civil union is funny and/or confusing to me, because both mean the same thing. I was fascinated (or dismayed) to see that marriage is not defined directly in my state's law. One must identify what marriage is indirectly:
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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It requires a license and must be "solemnized" by a judge, district magistrate, or religious official.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The divorce code spells out what happens when a marriage ends.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are various tax consequences, criminal immunities, and so forth for "married couples", sprinkled throughout the code.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It establishes paternity by default. But the child support code itself does not depend on marriage, nor is it necessary to be married in order to have children.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before I got married, I had the idea that wedding vows, fidelity, and creating a stable family environment were important parts of marriage. My religion also emphasizes that husband and wife are to help each other follow a Christian path. But all of these are conspicously absent from the state laws. They are not part of marriage as the state defines it.

I think the traditional concept of marriage has been dead for many years in my state. There is no reason why gay couples should not have the type of civil union that we really have in effect now.

If I were to get married again with a license from the state, it would only be after evaluating civil marriage as a business deal, with pros and cons, and I would make darn sure to have a pre-nup. This is the same way I would evaluate a new job, an HMO, a new school, college savings plan, and so forth.

If I want a "religious" marriage, that is a completely separate thing to be handled through my church, and between me and a future wife. But this is not "enforceable" if one partner decides to leave.

I'm not sure if I would undertake a "religious" marriage again. I would consider a "civil union" if it benefits me and my children. It seems mercenary, but I feel stupid to have combined the two before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and then have people change...and be out to lunch. But, it seems, that would be somewhat rare</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I don't think it is rare at all. Whatever faults my H had, family was extremely important to him. He actually told a prospective employer once, when asked what the most important aspect of a job would be, that flexibility so that the needs of his family could be met would be paramount. A few years later, he was gone - and not long after, he restricted his children's visits to one day a month or less, and a brief weekly fast food dinner.

I may have missed some red flags about other things, but there is not a doubt in my mind that my H's life revolved around his family, and that all changed so quickly...

Jo, Very provocative topic. Clearly those of us who are BS's are more than a bit cynical about marriage after experiencing infidelity.

Personally, I mistrust myself most of all. I'm the one who chose an addict/alcoholic/adulterer and spent 20 years trying to make it work, to the point that 4 months before he left, even though he hadn't made love to me in 2 years (following my breast cancer diagnosis), I felt that if we could solve that one problem, our marriage would be perfect. Well, I solved that problem only to unleash a monster and to slowly recognize, after he moved in with the latest OW, that he'd been cheating on me for the entire 18 years we'd been together with a series of young, unattractive, needy women.

I spent another 1.5 years trying unsuccessfully to win him back, something that's now making getting a divorce a complete nightmare.

I was blind in my marriage. I was blind after he lost his hard won sobriety. I was blind to his inappropriate relationships with OW's (women I never really saw as a threat). I was blind to reality after he moved in with the current OW and told me he was trying to reconcile with me but couldn't overcome all my shortcomings. And I was blind to his bs while I continued to support him and OW for the past 3+ years.

People around me say that I really loved him. And "love is blind," right? Well, if that's what love's all about, I'm not sure I'm up to it!

very, very, very interesting thread...and very interesting responses, from all of you. You all gave much insight into what is going on in your hearts; doubt, frustration, confusion, hurt.

Losing love is a terrible thing, as I am going through a divorce right now that I did not want to go through. For me though, I still believe very much in marriage. I experienced infidelity to its highest degree, but through it all I have learned so much. I almost feel as though I am ready to go at it again right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but I know that now is not the time.

I can understand why some of you may say that marriage is not for you, and it may not be. But, man (or woman) was not meant to be alone. Don't give up on love. There is someone out there who needs the person that you have become, the understanding you now have, the resilience you have learned, the patience you have acquired. Someone needs you and will love you and cherish you and (get this) be ever so committed to you because of the person you are today. Don't give up on love.

Hey GreenGables, still have books in your basement? If so, you win...I have a separation agreement! Wow...6 months later...and only a few things (well, two) seem to be different than our agreement...so hopefully just oversight/typos.

Oh, boy. I still have books in the basement BP. Although there seems to have been some movement. But probably very little. B. said he was so ill he felt like he was going to pass out everytime he packed a box. I suggested he see a doctor. I really don't want a dead stbx in my basement. It would look very suspicious.

LOL....Yeah, I'd try to avoid that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by greengables:
<strong>Children need marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please explain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />